• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Forgiven for what, eactly?

Ah, you've defined Bible-based beliefs as a priori arrogant. Thanks for the clarification.
 
AvalonXQ said:
Actively fantasizing about another specific person may be sinful. I've been over this before, more than once,
Click to expand...
Me too.......... Oh I see.

Still you are free to sin as much as you want. A quick prayer and you get off scot free. I have to live with my actions.

Do you think this is why Christianity is popular? It allows people to dodge responsibility for their actions in the arrogant hope a sky fairy forgives them?
 
Last edited:
AvalonXQ said:
That's another good question.
Click to expand...
I've been known to manage them now and again.

The nature of the universe, God's role in creating it, our purpose in being created -- I think these are sufficient reasons to establish a responsibility to God. Do you not?
Click to expand...
No, I most certainly do not. Nor do I understand how any of those things could even conceivably create any kind of repsponsability to another being.

One assumes responsibilities voluntarily. If I buy a dog, I assume the responsibility to care for it. If I marry a woman, I assume the responsibility to love and support her. If I am part of a democratic society, I assume the responsibility to function as a member of that society - obey the laws, face the concequences if I don't, etc.

You seem to assume that a responsibility on me to do certain things and follow certain rules... simply exists, as a fundamental feature of the universe. I not only don't agree, I don't think the very idea makes any sense.
 
Cayvmann said:
This is not a good argument for or against masturbation, since Onan was killed for not providing his dead brother an heir, and not for masturbating. He wasted his seed ( after plowing the field, btw ) which was promised to the widow of his brother. He didn't want a child that he couldn't claim as his own.

( Yeah, it's a myth. I know )
Click to expand...
.
The way it was drilled into us kiddies at Catlic school, it was the masturbation that was the sin, the powers not wanting our maleable minds to consider drilling one's brother's widow.
 
AvalonXQ said:
Sexual attraction isn't sinful. Actively fantasizing about another specific person may be sinful. I've been over this before, more than once, on this very forum.
Click to expand...
So looking at a woman with lust is not sinful?

What about the other question - about how I sometimes spend money on luxury items for myself when I know that there are people going hungry.

Jesus would not do anything like that, would he?
Sin must be intentional, chosen. When you sin, you intentionally choose to do something that you know is wrong when you do it. Whether or not you intend to disobey God, you intend to do something you know to be wrong, and that does disobey God. Does that clarify what I mean?
Click to expand...
So if I do something that I don't believe to be wrong - like having gay sex with a consenting adult - then I am not sinning, even if God would consider it to be sinning?

But when I do something that I do consider to be wrong - like spending money on luxury items for myself when there are people going hungry - then I am sinning - yes?
 
AvalonXQ said:
First of all, I wouldn't have to know EVERY action committed by every human being -- just ONE sinful action committed by each one.
But, in practice, I'm not even claiming that much knowledge. I'm simply claiming that the Bible indicates that we all sin.
Click to expand...
.
And the Catch 22 of the underlined is "original sin". We all did that!
Gotcha, as it were.
Curses be unto Tommy Aquinas!
 
Lothian said:
Me too.......... Oh I see.

Still you are free to sin as much as you want. A quick prayer and you get off scot free. I have to live with my actions.

Do you think this is why Christianity is popular? It allows people to dodge responsibility for their actions in the arrogant hope a sky fairy forgives them?
Click to expand...
I have always found this puzzling. Apparently I am so utterly wicked that I deserve nothing better than the worst punishment imaginable.

But if I cap off this alleged career of infamy by wriggling out of my punishment on a technicality then I get the best reward imaginable.
 
Robin,

That always led to, what I believed, was one of the principle contradictions of Christianity, as well.

The teaches of Christianity are supposed to promote you to be kind, compassionate, and to place the needs and lives of others above your own. In other words, you're supposed to be self-sacrificing.

Which, when applied logically, makes me wonder where the Christian mass murderers are.

To explain: In most Protestent sects, you are believed to be in a state of grace when you are baptists (or saved, as some believe it happens before the physical act), or when you repent. At this point, you are "ready for heaven". It's repeatedly drilled into you that you CANNOT life a sinless life, you MUST rely on God to save you, you simply cannot do it on your own, period. So this state of grace is temporary, until the next time.

Now, if I'm a true Christian, and truly love my fellow man, why am I going to let him risk his eternal soul for a few decades of toil, struggle, and pain in theis Earthly realm? The logical thing to do is assasinate each believer at the point that person is in this state of grace. Quite frankly, the believers should welcome this activity, as well, as a ticket to eternal happiness. All it would take is one Christian willing ot make the ultimate sacrifice, of his own immoprtal soul, for that of however many others he sends to grace.

Yet it never happens (with the exception of a few rare cults).
 
AvalonXQ said:
That's another good question. The nature of the universe, God's role in creating it, our purpose in being created -- I think these are sufficient reasons to establish a responsibility to God. Do you not?
Click to expand...
No.

Which god or gods had a role in creating the universe? It seems to me that all gods are mythical beings, invented by men, which is why there are so many of them. If you want to know what the people of a given time or place value, just look at the attributes they give to their god(s). The Yahweh fellow seems to represent a particularly loathsome tribe.

There's no "purpose" in humans being created, any more than there was a "purpose" in creating the tapeworms that sometimes live in our bodies.
 
AvalonXQ said:
Except in practice this isn't actually necessary. I can teach people about the nature of sin, how humans choose to sin, and how someone can repent of sin and re-establish a connection with God.
Click to expand...
And yet the very question on this matter remains unanswered. I'll ask again. What specifically, given that you are talking about everyone over the age of 10, and therefore not being held accountable for 'the original sin', is so irresistable and is sinful, that everyone is guilty of it (or them) at least once in their life?

AvalonXQ said:
But if you believe it doesn't apply to you -- that somehow you're part of a rare group of people that has never chosen to do something morally wrong -- then that's the end of the discussion. And since I don't have the authority to judge your sins, go in peace.
Click to expand...
Haven't you already judged everyone by proclaiming that no one alive today is free of sin?

The passive aggressive stance is not particularly becoming.
 
AvalonXQ said:
No. Only free moral agents. Not infants.
Click to expand...
If it is assumed, as you do, that a free moral agent must have committed such an act, then clearly the meaning of "free moral agent" is nonsense. A free moral agent must be free, at least theoretically, to act correctly at every turn. If there is something inherent in being a free moral agent that automatically prevents that possibility, then one is not a free moral agent at all, freedom of will is a hoax, and God has loaded the dice.
 
Seismosaurus said:
If I am part of a democratic society, I assume the responsibility to function as a member of that society - obey the laws, face the concequences if I don't, etc.
Click to expand...

It's interesting that you include this example. Where's the voluntary commitment, here? Isn't the responsibility imposed on you whether you want it or not?
If you have the responsibility to obey the laws of our society by living in our society, why don't you have the reponsibility to obey the laws of God's universe by living in God's universe?
 
bruto said:
If it is assumed, as you do, that a free moral agent must have committed such an act, then clearly the meaning of "free moral agent" is nonsense. A free moral agent must be free, at least theoretically, to act correctly at every turn.
Click to expand...

A free moral agent is free, at least theoretically, to act correctly at every turn. Just as a baseball player is free, at least theoretically, to hit every baseball.
There's nothing in human nature to prevent us from being perfect. In practice, none of us manage it. That doesn't say anything about the system itself being flawed.
 
chillzero said:
And yet the very question on this matter remains unanswered. I'll ask again. What specifically, given that you are talking about everyone over the age of 10, and therefore not being held accountable for 'the original sin', is so irresistable and is sinful, that everyone is guilty of it (or them) at least once in their life?
Click to expand...
I don't know.

Haven't you already judged everyone by proclaiming that no one alive today is free of sin?
Click to expand...

No; I have accepted God's judgment.
 
bruto said:
If it is assumed, as you do, that a free moral agent must have committed such an act, then clearly the meaning of "free moral agent" is nonsense. A free moral agent must be free, at least theoretically, to act correctly at every turn. If there is something inherent in being a free moral agent that automatically prevents that possibility, then one is not a free moral agent at all, freedom of will is a hoax, and God has loaded the dice.
Click to expand...

Funny post.

The free-will agent is YOU just like any consciousness, alive. So to say, 'they' are incapable is rendering that YOU are not either.

instinct is still a part of any life but with consciousness empathy can exist beyond instinct. The reason the rules are so trashed is because of the valuation of 'things'. ie... what people will do, for what they believe they need, can cause huge damage (like nuclear weapons to be created).

Drilling the rules should not be to anything other than the root of life's intent on the universal scale; the intent 'to continue'.

All the rules can be grounded to 'life' simply by comprehending the root of life's intent, to live. (all of it)

Life: purposed to continue (like a splash on a pond rolling thru time, once started it 'continues') Match that to any life and find reproduction is important (cell-division).

The "because"........is that ....... "we" can reason before action (choice by determination), then we can measure, before our action to 'support life to continue' (good) or a loss to the common (bad).


it's stupid easy (look at any command, all can be grounded to 'the garden' (life))


ie.... no need of homage because to 'support life to continue' and adher to life, you are in homage to 'the garden' (the boss itself; dad (well mother- nature is a she,
so in reality,
he is a she
to you and me,
see?)


call it


"stupid easy"



ps.... did anyone notice, i mentioned the part about how 'we' can forgive and not let the nasties continue in OUR actions? (previous post in this thread)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom