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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Adidas Jacket

A photo of the jacket to consider:
http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/gallery/image_page.php?album_id=21&image_id=1447

Look how much blood is on around the neck of the jacket. It is likely she was stabbed while still wearing the jacket.

Chris C and Katy Did,

How does the jacket fit into your scenarios?

1. Great deal of blood around the neck cuff
2. Found with sleeves and entire jacket turned inside out
3. Found near bloodiest corner by the wardrobe
4. Aspirations on bra, that would still be on after jacket was removed.
 
I am quite surprised that people who are so convinced for innocence appear to know nothing of what is going on. Now, the trial I was talking about in the first lines was the calunnia about Patrick Lumumba. This charge belongs to the same trial for the Murder of Meredith Kercher and is linked by continuation. This charge is "serious" because it belongs to the same criminal episode, it is in continuation with a murder and it is a false accusation of rape and murder.
Then Amanda got charged with a second calunnia, this time about the police officers. This second calunnia is not serious, even if theoretically the law article is always the same and allows a six year prison term. But the actual penalty if found guilty would be below three years, thus it would mean "suspended" and would be cancelled after a number of years, so it cannot be "added" to the other conviction.

Thank you again for the information. I have read a great deal about this case but I've found little information on this specific facet and oddly enough it was this which created my interest in this case. As for how I can be convinced of innocence without knowing the details of calunnia and such, you don't need to know how all the mechanisms work to see through an illusion.
 
Chris C and Katy Did,

How does the jacket fit into your scenarios?

1. Great deal of blood around the neck cuff
2. Found with sleeves and entire jacket turned inside out
3. Found near bloodiest corner by the wardrobe
4. Aspirations on bra, that would still be on after jacket was removed.

Good points! Do we know if meredith was wearing this particular jacket when she walked home? If not, it could have just gotten bloodied from being on the floor already. But if she was wearing it I think that says a lot about when and how she was attacked. Anyone know?
 
Good points! Do we know if meredith was wearing this particular jacket when she walked home? If not, it could have just gotten bloodied from being on the floor already. But if she was wearing it I think that says a lot about when and how she was attacked. Anyone know?

Yes Malkmus,

She was wearing this jacket. The red and white puma shoes she was wearing are on the rug by the wardrobe. One of the shoes is still tied. She was wearing the jacket and shoes when attacked. A very strong sign of being a attacked shortly after arriving home.
 
Yes Malkmus,

She was wearing this jacket. The red and white puma shoes she was wearing are on the rug by the wardrobe. One of the shoes is still tied. She was wearing the jacket and shoes when attacked. A very strong sign of being a attacked shortly after arriving home.

So this on top of her leaving her laundry in the machine after she got home and not calling her mother is just one more reason to doubt that she was attacked more than a few minutes after getting home.
 
Well, my information - and also in statements by judge Paolo Micheli - says the same pattern of spray was not found on her breasts. Actually her breasts were clean in most topical areas, while there were peripheral stains not consistent with her breath. There is a pattern of tiny spots on the sternal area, not covered by a bra.

This is not correct. Small, round blood droplets were present on her breasts, in the area that would have been covered by her bra when she was wearing it.

On her back we notice - as reported even by the Panorama piece you linked - the stricking lack of injury, even less of cut injuries, this is not exactly suggesting the bra was cut during a struggle. The bra seems to be cut neatly while the victim is immobile or immobilized. This doesn't have much information but it is not consistent with a frantic movement, not consistent with an impetus. The complete removal of her bra could be subsequent to the cutting of the clasp, since a bra can remain in place without the back strap. But all this doesn't lead to conclude it was removed while she was alive. I see no reason for this conclusion.

He removed the bra while she was still alive, but after she had ceased to put up a fight and after he had dragged her to the spot where her body was found.
 
Yes Malkmus,

She was wearing this jacket. The red and white puma shoes she was wearing are on the rug by the wardrobe. One of the shoes is still tied. She was wearing the jacket and shoes when attacked. A very strong sign of being a attacked shortly after arriving home.

Yep. This is what the forensic expert says in his reconstruction. I have trouble noticing all these details, but once someone points them out, they are obvious, and they lead to specific conclusions.
 
I am quite surprised that people who are so convinced for innocence appear to know nothing of what is going on. Now, the trial I was talking about in the first lines was the calunnia (slander charge) about Patrick Lumumba. This charge belongs to the same trial for the Murder of Meredith Kercher and is linked by continuation. This charge is "serious" because it belongs to the same criminal episode, it is in continuation with a murder and it is a false accusation of rape and murder.
Then Amanda got charged with a second calunnia (slander charge), this time about the police officers. This second calunnia is not serious, even if theoretically the law article is always the same and allows a six year prison term. But the actual penalty if found guilty would be below three years, thus it would mean "suspended" and would be cancelled after a number of years, so it cannot be "added" to the other conviction.

How can a confession that was extracted from a person using brainwashing techniques (sleep deprevation) and techniques of torture (threats, intimidation, and other deprevations) could then be sued for slander for something leaked by the police? Seems like the Italian police and the Italian media are the only ones guilty of libel.

The USA has a stronger constitutional right to free speech that protects individuals from such. However, when you couple that with the fact no lawyer was present, that is totally foreign to me. These libel/slander charges in another era would be called acts of barbarism.

In the USA, the information wouldn't have been leaked because disinterested parties cannot get the police reports. In the USA, the people that repeat a libel/slander are also guilty - the newspapers and police would also be guilty. In the USA, more is protected as freedom of speech. In the USA, a lawyer would have been present. In the USA, this type of interrogation is illegal.

The audacious have even suggested that the Italian system is better than the system in the USA. Anybody recall any such slander/libel charges EVER being filed in the USA or any other country?
 
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How can a confession that was extracted from a person using brainwashing techniques (sleep deprevation) and techniques of torture (threats, intimidation, and other deprevations) could then be sued for slander for something leaked by the police? Seems like the Italian police and the Italian media are the only ones guilty of libel.

(...)

Could you please avoid the change and misquote of what I write?
You have changed things in my writing, here it shows the correction:


I am quite surprised that people who are so convinced for innocence appear to know nothing of what is going on. Now, the trial I was talking about in the first lines was the calunnia (slander charge) about Patrick Lumumba. This charge belongs to the same trial for the Murder of Meredith Kercher and is linked by continuation. This charge is "serious" because it belongs to the same criminal episode, it is in continuation with a murder and it is a false accusation of rape and murder.
Then Amanda got charged with a second calunnia (slander charge), this time about the police officers. This second calunnia is not serious, even if theoretically the law article is always the same and allows a six year prison term. But the actual penalty if found guilty would be below three years, thus it would mean "suspended" and would be cancelled after a number of years, so it cannot be "added" to the other conviction
.


The defence didn't claim th confession was the effect sleep deprevation and techniques of torture, nobody claimed those happened, this claim is not consistent with the defensive line and i think nobody would believe such claim.

I'm not interested in answering to you because your writings are obviously inconsistent.
 
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This is not correct. Small, round blood droplets were present on her breasts, in the area that would have been covered by her bra when she was wearing it.

Well I don't know what photos you have, but we can both acknowledge that judge Micheli gives an opposite description, and other observers also reported her breasts were clean, for example gen. Garofano.

There are also other elements in the room to observe though, and given the many physical data I can't see where you derive your conclusion about a post-delictum sexual assault. To me this is inconsistent with the evidence.
 
Could you please avoid the change and misquote of what I write?
You have changed things in my writing, here it shows the correction:

The translation for the Italian word calunnia is slander.
The defence didn't claim th confession was the effect sleep deprevation and techniques of torture, nobody claimed those happened, this claim is not consistent with the defensive line and i think nobody would believe such claim.

I'm not interested in answering to you because your writings are obviously inconsistent.

As for brainwashing, see this article in wikipedia. If you think the subject needs further debate, then we can continue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_washing

As for torture, see this article in wikipedia. If you think the subject needs further debate, then we can continue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_methods_of_torture
 
How can a confession that was extracted from a person using brainwashing techniques (sleep deprevation) and techniques of torture (threats, intimidation, and other deprevations) could then be sued for slander for something leaked by the police? Seems like the Italian police and the Italian media are the only ones guilty of libel.

The USA has a stronger constitutional right to free speech that protects individuals from such. However, when you couple that with the fact no lawyer was present, that is totally foreign to me. These libel/slander charges in another era would be called acts of barbarism.

In the USA, the information wouldn't have been leaked because disinterested parties cannot get the police reports. In the USA, the people that repeat a libel/slander are also guilty - the newspapers and police would also be guilty. In the USA, more is protected as freedom of speech. In the USA, a lawyer would have been present. In the USA, this type of interrogation is illegal.

The audacious have even suggested that the Italian system is better than the system in the USA. Anybody recall any such slander/libel charges EVER being filed in the USA or any other country?

This thread is about the Amanda Knox case, not the USA.
 
The translation for the Italian word calunnia is slander.

Calunnia here is not an Italian word, it is a legal term of the Italian Penal Code, and your translation is wrong.
The meaning has been explained, even if you deny it.

Besides, you should not misquote changing others' words, whether you agree or not. I didn't use the term slander, this is a fact, you should start your argument from this fact.
 
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As for brainwashing, see this article in wikipedia. If you think the subject needs further debate, then we can continue.

Amanda and her defence already expressed a position on the police interrogation. Their defensive line is not addressing torture nor brainwashing techniques.
There is nothing to debate, since you maintain Amanda's situation is worse than death because Meredith's family at least can go on with their lives, and this position is devoid of consistency and honesty.
 
How can a confession that was extracted from a person using brainwashing techniques (sleep deprevation) and techniques of torture (threats, intimidation, and other deprevations) could then be sued for slander for something leaked by the police? Seems like the Italian police and the Italian media are the only ones guilty of libel.

It is my understanding that Amanda is accused of calunnia because she lied about Patrick being Meredith's murderer when he wasn't. She misled a criminal investigation by attributing criminal actions to another person who she knew was not involved. This is what calunnia means from what I've read.

The courts did not believe she was brainwashed or tortured. You may believe she had no idea whether he was involved or not, and you may believe she was forced into saying he was, but it is the court's opinion which gives weight to the charge of calunnia and IMO the court feels it is justified based on her being convicted of the murder herself and Patrick having been exonerated.
 
The courts did not believe she was brainwashed or tortured.

Even SHE doesn't believe she was brainwashed or tortured. Her family doesn't believe it, her defense doesn't believe it, her supporters in the U.S. don't believe it either.

The argument can be made that she was manipulated, lied to, and/or intimidated. But to say she was brainwashed and/or tortured shows no real understanding of those activities.
 
As Matthew suggested already, I don't think that Knox implies this at all. It's as likely to be a matter of courtesy than the thought of actually locking somebody out.

Regarding your thoughts on the key situation:

1) A "convenience key" could not be left in the interior door lock, since this would prevent a key being inserted from outside - in other words, this sort of arrangement would prevent anyone from being able to open the door from the outside with a key.

2) If you stop to think about it, there's almost zero sense in having a "convenience key" hanging by the door. The only time this would make any sense would be if the person exiting the house planned to leave the door unlocked behind themselves (e.g. taking out the rubbish etc), and even then they probably wouldn't want to risk someone else locking the door while they were outside (assuming they replaced the "convenience key" once they used it to unlock the door). If someone were going out properly, then the door would need to be locked once they got outside - necessitating a key. So they would either take this "convenience key" and hold on to it while they were out - thus ruining the whole concept of a "convenience key - or they would take their own key (and therefore use it to both unlock and re-lock the door as they left).

3) Most landlords aren't fond of supplying more front door keys than there are tenants - for obvious reasons. If each tenant is personally responsible for her own key, then there's accountability. If there's a spare "convenience key" which just floats around, this is clearly more liable to go missing - with security consequences. It's therefore almost certain that the landlord would only want there to be four front door keys in existence, and that each of the tenants bore personal responsibility for her own key.

///


Some different thoughts on the key situation.

Apparently we have no way of knowing whether or not there were spare keys, or more specifically a spare key kept by the door in this instance, but in response to your musings on the likelihood of such a circumstance I have to wonder if things are so different in the U.K. or Italy in that regard than they are here, because what you suggest is certainly not the situation in the U.S.

Starting with your item 3).

Acquiring a copy of a key is no big deal here. It will set you back a couple of dollars, and can be done at any hardware store, any big box DIY store, and more than a few WalMarts or Targets. Not to mention lock shops. I can think of half a dozen places I can get a key made in a matter of minutes within a two mile radius of where I am sitting.

Speaking from my own experience, which encompasses a number of rental properties in a number of states over more than a few decades, generally a landlord will give a tenant one, or possibly two keys and if the tenant wants more they go out and get copies. The landlord usually doesn't give a rat's ass how many copies are made. They do make the return of all copies a condition of the lease, but that's about it. Particularly responsible or accommodating landlords will simply switch or re-key a lockset between tenants, although I don't know how universal this practice may be. It isn't expensive, especially compared to the headaches of tracking, replacing or issuing new keys. A cheap entry lockset costs about $30. A decent handyman can swap one out in less than fifteen minutes. With cigarette breaks. Many of the better ones are designed specifically so that the lock cylinder barrel can be removed and replaced with nothing more than a special change key designed for that purpose. It takes about a minute to do. When I was turning over finished buildings to an owner I would often have a handful of them in a drawer in my desk in the office trailer. Often times even if the landlord doesn't choose to change the lock the tenant may do so all on their own, and simply give a copy of the new key to the landlord. This is not the least bit uncommon, either.

Most landlords or their service people have a larger stock of old replacement door hardware than they really want, much less need. It's the kind of thing which tends to accumulate when you manage properties.

Regarding item 2).

Double deadbolt locks are a subject of much debate in the lock industry where residential entry doors are concerned. Their primary ostensible purpose is to prevent unauthorized entry by an intruder simply smashing a door lite or adjacent window and reaching in to turn a thumbturn. An alternative justification is that thieves will be discouraged from fleeing the the door with something which they couldn't remove through whatever other means of entry they used.

The problem with the second thought is that most things which are stolen can be gotten out the way the thief got in. Things that are too heavy or bulky are generally not stolen by a single thief, and the same logic applies. If they got in through a window, and they're stealing TVs or other bulky items they can generally find a window to hand big stuff out to an accomplice. Once in, the means of egress increase dramatically. The front door is not the only hole in the walls.

The security advantages are seriously offset by the safety disadvantages. If someone is woken by a fire and tries to flee, the obstacle presented by a locked double deadbolt can and has been the difference between life and death. Fire safety professionals hate double deadbolts on residential entry doors, and universally advise against them. When their advice to avoid them is to be disregarded the fallback advice is to insure that a spare key is kept close to the door in case of emergencies. (Or to use a system like a "captured key thumbturn", which I won't go into now.) Most of the people I know with double deadbolts do this.

In addition many residents don't want to be bothered by finding or fetching the keyring they left in the bedroom or their purse or their coat pocket every time they lock up for the night, and keep a spare key convenient near doors with these sorts of locksets. Remember, the cost of an extra key is less than most people spend on a morning coffee at Starbucks these days.

All of these conspire to make it much more likely than not that an extra key will be somewhere in close proximity to a double deadbolt lock on a residential entry door. If anything I'd be inclined to think that it would be even more likely in the case of the girls' apartment, since the disabled spring bolt and resulting need to lock the deadbolt merely to keep the door closed would mean that a key would be required simply to answer the door whenever there was any sort of caller.

Item 1). It is just wrong to say,
"A "convenience key" could not be left in the interior door lock, since this would prevent a key being inserted from outside - in other words, this sort of arrangement would prevent anyone from being able to open the door from the outside with a key."
This is entirely dependent on the type of lock assembly itself, as well as the type of cylinder being used in that assembly. These are often (usually) interchangeable within a manufacturer's group of locksets. If you believe that all double deadbolt lock assemblies will not permit keys to function in both sides of the door simultaneously then you are simply mistaken. Without knowing the specific details of the specific lock assembly on that particular door it is quite impossible to make the statement you did with any foundation in authority.

I'm going to come to your defense in the "probability" aspect of this, though. Although in the U.S. it is quite common, probably even normal for double deadbolts to accept keys in both sides of the lock at once, my reading into European lock hardware during the last time the subject came around led to the discovery that a common "Euro" style of lock cylinder does not. I am not going to go through all of that reading again, but there is every likelihood that the lock assembly on that apartment door was using one such.

Note that it did not have to be, and we still have no way of knowing whether it did or not, but I would be unsurprised if it did. Not that it is at all germane to any other part of this question.
 
How can a confession that was extracted from a person using brainwashing techniques (sleep deprevation) and techniques of torture (threats, intimidation, and other deprevations) could then be sued for slander for something leaked by the police? Seems like the Italian police and the Italian media are the only ones guilty of libel.


This is a depiction of circumstances which seems to be popular among some Knox advocates. It is not one which meets with universal concurrence beyond that group. Sometimes not even within it.

The USA has a stronger constitutional right to free speech that protects individuals from such. However, when you couple that with the fact no lawyer was present, that is totally foreign to me. These libel/slander charges in another era would be called acts of barbarism.
Are you suggesting that all U.S. jurisdictions ensure the presence of a lawyer when interviewing potential witnesses?

In the USA, the information wouldn't have been leaked because disinterested parties cannot get the police reports. In the USA, the people that repeat a libel/slander are also guilty - the newspapers and police would also be guilty. In the USA, more is protected as freedom of speech. In the USA, a lawyer would have been present. In the USA, this type of interrogation is illegal.

<snip>
Why do you keep making claims like this when it has been demonstrated repeatedly in this very thread that they are patently false.

In most jurisdictions police reports are a matter of public record, and special procedures are required to prevent access by any party. In news broadcasts one of the very first things we see other than press statements are those very police reports. Many news organizations have people who do nothing but review police reports just on the chance that they may stumble across something newsworthy.

In some jurisdictions (as I have explained before) there is virtually nothing about a criminal case which is not accessible to anyone with the time and inclination to ask for it.

The material released by the state of Florida in the Anthony case, which includes but is not limited to everything which they have turned over to the defense as part of discovery, as well as everything the defense has turned over to them in reciprocal discovery, is floating around 20,000 pages so far, with more than half a year to go before she gets her actual trial (maybe). The state released another 1,000 pages yesterday, including letters she got from her mother a few months ago.
 
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If el buscador is referring to BrokenEnglish at the members forum of IIP, I agree. You will have to join to view, and his latest post on his background and how he heard about the case and the early impressions he had is absolutely fantastic.
He is also the one that has helped me on occasion (finding that TV interview with Quintavale for example).


Here are a few links to those discussions:

http://www.injusticeinperugiaforum.org/steve-moore-s-interview-with-linda-byron-t188-20.html#p2041

http://www.injusticeinperugiaforum.org/me-and-my-friends-t404.html

http://www.injusticeinperugiaforum.org/slander-trials-t213.html
 
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