Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[JREF2010]

delete

 

[platonov]

Tell you what, I will ask LJ, Antony, and Chris C to include the word paradoxically when they say that going by this or that part of Curatolo's statements it would paradoxically give Amanda and Raffaele an alibi, that way we are all good.

And yes, they completely discredit his testimony.

Hey , I'm good - you just proved my point for me but negated the claim you made 2 or 3 posts earlier.

So [paradoxically or not ] the lawyers for the defence independently came to the conclusion that the arguments I highlighted wont fly in the real world either.
I cant claim much credit - its fairly obvious to most.

But hopefully, now that its been accepted here, it will inform the debate and help move it to a more realistic level.

Now as to discussion of Curatolo's testimony - obviously IMHO it shouldn't be completely ignored .

For one the defence have to discredit it - what are the chances in the appeal ? Your mind seems made up on this - I'm not convinced such confidence is warranted.

And also for the purposes of this thread it may certainly inform the discussion w.r.t. the timing and details of the role AK and RS played in the murder of MK.

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[Chris C]

Hey , I'm good - you just proved my point for me but negated the claim you made 2 or 3 posts earlier.

So [paradoxically or not ] the lawyers for the defence independently came to the conclusion that the arguments I highlighted wont fly in the real world either.
I cant claim much credit - its fairly obvious to most.

But hopefully, now that its been accepted here, it will inform the debate and help move it to a more realistic level.

Now as to discussion of Curatolo's testimony - obviously IMHO it shouldn't be completely ignored .

For one the defence have to discredit it - what are the chances in the appeal ? Your mind seems made up on this - I'm not convinced such confidence is warranted.

And also for the purposes of this thread it may certainly inform the discussion w.r.t. the timing and details of the role AK and RS played in the murder of MK.

.

What point? You must be speaking your point in riddles, because all I see are your claims you are right with no evidence presented. But then again 3 or 4 posts earlier you proved I was right. Why do you take it back now after you said i was right?

 

[platonov]

What point? You must be speaking your point in riddles, because all I see are your claims you are right with no evidence presented. But then again 3 or 4 posts earlier you proved I was right. Why do you take it back now after you said i was right?

I don't remember saying you were right - where

I usually restrict myself to pointing out errors of fact or logic in your arguments.

But perhaps the former approach would lighten my workload.

Just kidding.

As to evidence :see the defence doc RoseMontague posted - but the point should be apparent by now even without this.

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[Mary_H]

You didn't say "conspiracy", as in the word, but you wrote a proposition which implies you believe there was one.

Where did they get the DNA which was on their gloves?

In Raffaele's diary he states, "I am not quiet because if they have found a trace so ridiculous they can find many so many others on the rags and so on ..."

What rags is he referring to?

He is referring to the rags they used to soak up the water on the kitchen floor of his apartment:

..... She was cleaned up and had brought me a mop in order to help me to dry the floor around the sink. The evening before I had put only rags on the floor and they were not enough. After that I cleaned up the floor and perhaps I made breakfast around 11:30-12:00 I changed clothes and we went out. She meanwhile had spoken to me about the fact that she had found something strange at her house.....

[From Raffaele's prison diary]

 

[Mary_H]

Thanks, Mary H..

I wasn't clear in asking, is there a link to Rudy's Appeal report?

Sorry, I don't know. Dan O. or Rose might be able to help you. They both have cataloged a lot of the documentation.

Actually for Micheli's report there seems to be a Google Chrome translate document function (July 2010) that worked really well. I used it this weekend and it seemed to be a much better translation and ease of making a English version of Michelis report. It literally took a minute or two.
It also seemed to be a much improved translation, in comparison to the old 2007 version.

http://translate.google.com/?tr=f&hl=en#

Thanks!

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Raffaele's DNA

Where did they get the DNA which was on their gloves?

Danceme,

I think it is mistaken to equate the DNA that the forensics team found with all of the DNA in the cottage. The team was focused on blood and Meredith's body, with some other objects tested. Raffaele's DNA might have been on Meredith's door, because he had contact with it. I would hazard a guess that some of the towels in the house had his DNA from the times he might have washed before cooking.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Where did they get the DNA which was on their gloves?

They might have gotten it from handling something he had touched, or coughed over. I have posted guidelines for handling DNA evidence - "avoid touching the area where you believe DNA may exist."

Meredith's room (and indeed the whole cottage) had been trashed by earlier waves of investigators, so another possibility is that this thing was stepped on by someone who had a minute quantity of Raffaele's DNA the sole of his or her shoe. I can't prove contamination. I can only prove that the evidence was mishandled to the point that contamination was entirely possible.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

stories from nothing

This is amazing. It now seems that the current theory has 2 other people involved (now a total of 3) in Sarah Scazzi's death. And there is that whole cell phone tower thing again (thanks for your imput DanO). And a rather large rock.

http://translate.google.com/transla...h-scazzi-le-telefonate-inchiodano-sabrina.php

ETA: The comments are a must read to get a feel for the opinion in Italy on this case.

Rose,

At least one of the people commenting on the case suggested that it was Sabrina, not her father, who killed her, then her father was obliged to help her. This person has concocted a story based on no evidence whatsoever. In this I see a parallel with the Knox/Sollecito case.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Now as to discussion of Curatolo's testimony - obviously IMHO it shouldn't be completely ignored .

For one the defence have to discredit it - what are the chances in the appeal ? Your mind seems made up on this - I'm not convinced such confidence is warranted.

And also for the purposes of this thread it may certainly inform the discussion w.r.t. the timing and details of the role AK and RS played in the murder of MK.

What light do you think Curotolo sheds on the timing and details? Did he see Amanda and Raffaele watching the place after the murder, making sure it was safe to go back? That is what I thought was the implication when he testified - but Massei says the killers did not arrive at the cottage until after 11:30 pm. If that is the case, were Amanda and Raffaele waiting for Guede to join them?

If the various elements of evidence and testimony against Amanda/Raffaele are indeed connected to the crime, then each element corresponds to a specific event that really happened. To me, the evidence against Guede fits into a plausible sequence of events - he broke in, he raped, robbed and killed Meredith, he cleaned up in the bathroom, and he ran off into the night. What is the narrative that explains how Amanda and Raffaele left bare footprints in the corridor, lurked under the gaze of Curotolo, used fingers to pry open a hook on a bra fastener, etc.? I have yet to see anything that is the least bit believable.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Oh my! TJMK deserves a read tonight, just as an illustration of the obsession that some have developed with this case. At least Thoughtful had a "normal" reason to be in Perugia. But this latest development is beyond weird. Didn't Mr Quennell also make a special visit to Perugia? So very, very strange.

PS Most people with alcohol dependency issues have periods of relative sobriety - very often in the mornings. And quite how it's possible to tell whether someone was drunk the night before by "smelling them" the following morning is an extraordinary ability to possess....

Is this a video of the young Curotolo ministering to his disciples?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krb2OdQksMc

 

[samba]

And also for the purposes of this thread it may certainly inform the discussion w.r.t. the timing and details of the role AK and RS played in the murder of MK.

.

What role did they play? I asked Machiavelli but got no response. Can someone give their opinion as to how the murder occurred? Who was in the room....where were they positioned....did someone hold MK while someone stabbed her? And after you state the scenario...what forensic evidence backs it up?

 

[platonov]

What light do you think Curotolo sheds on the timing and details? Did he see Amanda and Raffaele watching the place after the murder, making sure it was safe to go back? That is what I thought was the implication when he testified - but Massei says the killers did not arrive at the cottage until after 11:30 pm. If that is the case, were Amanda and Raffaele waiting for Guede to join them?

If the various elements of evidence and testimony against Amanda/Raffaele are indeed connected to the crime, then each element corresponds to a specific event that really happened. To me, the evidence against Guede fits into a plausible sequence of events - he broke in, he raped, robbed and killed Meredith, he cleaned up in the bathroom, and he ran off into the night. What is the narrative that explains how Amanda and Raffaele left bare footprints in the corridor, lurked under the gaze of Curotolo, used fingers to pry open a hook on a bra fastener, etc.? I have yet to see anything that is the least bit believable.

You obviously didn't get the memo - I'm to be ignored*.

* on the grounds of being part of an OT conspiracy (LJ) , incomprehensible (widely claimed), general upset (Dan O) or being in league with the devil or a Pentecostalist (Mary H - speaking in tongues )

But as you responded a couple of points......

Can I take it you agree with my [& the defence teams] opinion on the futility of trying to incorporate parts of Curatolo's testimony into the defence case to form a new alibi. [ snipped completely from the post you quoted] Yes ??
A response would be helpful to other posters and a show of good faith.

Can I take it you obviously have little faith in the appeal - given the lack of comment on this part of my post & the general avoidance of this issue , contrasted with various references to other cases and other sites.

Answers on these issues would be helpful - either way I will respond to your Q's tomorrow.

My lack of certitude may surprise you - we non faith-based posters are prepared to admit not knowing everything.

.

 

[Mary_H]

What role did they play? I asked Machiavelli but got no response. Can someone give their opinion as to how the murder occurred? Who was in the room....where were they positioned....did someone hold MK while someone stabbed her? And after you state the scenario...what forensic evidence backs it up?

samba, where have you been -- didn't you know they played a Looney Toon of the murder at the trial? I heard Porky Pignini held the camera himself.

 

[samba]

samba, where have you been -- didn't you know they played a Looney Toon of the murder at the trial? I heard Porky Pignini held the camera himself.

I'm getting the feeling that your response might make the most sense of any that I'll receive.

 

[Mary_H]

I'm getting the feeling that your response might make the most sense of any that I'll receive.

>>> I wish I could make it more difficult for you, but [not paradoxically] I have only two brain* hemispheres, not three.

See all my previous posts** for a clue to this one -- you may cherrypick and CHOOSE<<<


* an ORGAN, not a mind

** and I do mean ALL

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Can I take it you agree with my [& the defence teams] opinion on the futility of trying to incorporate parts of Curatolo's testimony into the defence case to form a new alibi. [ snipped completely from the post you quoted] Yes ??
A response would be helpful to other posters and a show of good faith.

Yes. I think Curotolo is completely unreliable as a witness. I don't think Amanda or Raffaele set foot outside his apartment that evening.

Can I take it you obviously have little faith in the appeal - given the lack of comment on this part of my post & the general avoidance of this issue , contrasted with various references to other cases and other sites.

When I got involved in this over two years ago, I anticipated a grueling, years-long process, because of what I have seen with other cases, in the US and around the world. Nothing that has happened since has surprised me. But I don't want to predict the outcome of the appeal. This court has the chance to get it right. I hope they do.

Answers on these issues would be helpful - either way I will respond to your Q's tomorrow.

My lack of certitude may surprise you - we non faith-based posters are prepared to admit not knowing everything.

Your lack of certitude will not surprise me in the least. Nobody who thinks Amanda and Raffaele are guilty has ever come up with a plausible way to explain how they left the evidence attributed to them in the places where it was found.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

What role did they play? I asked Machiavelli but got no response. Can someone give their opinion as to how the murder occurred? Who was in the room....where were they positioned....did someone hold MK while someone stabbed her? And after you state the scenario...what forensic evidence backs it up?

Here is how it has been explained to me, based not on faith, but on crime scene photos:

Meredith was very likely sitting on the edge of the bed, calling her mother, when Guede burst in. She stood up, he grabbed her, got behind her and jabbed her in the right side of the neck with his knife, causing blood to flow. Some landed on the slats of the bed, and some between the bed and the nightstand. She put her hand to the wound and then left finger streaks on the wall. They moved diagonally across the room as she struggled to get free, until they were in front of the window. There he forced her to her knees. Gripping her face securely from behind with his left hand, he straddled her, reached around under her neck, plunged the knife up to the hilt in her throat, and pulled it upward and from left to right, creating a gash three inches long. She collapsed in front of the wardrobe, propping herself on her right hand while holding the left hand to this terrible wound. Wiithin seconds, she began to lose consciousness. Guede meanwhile dragged her out of the pool of blood to the spot where she was found. He rolled her over, pushed her shirt up, and cut off her bra while she was still gasping for breath. Then he removed her pants, put the pillow under her buttocks, used towels to dam up the flowing blood, and performed some kind of sexual violation. When he was finished, he threw the quilt over her, cleaned up in the bathroom, went back to her room to rummage through her purse, and fled the scene.

 

[samba]

Here is how it has been explained to me, based not on faith, but on crime scene photos:

Meredith was very likely sitting on the edge of the bed, calling her mother, when Guede burst in. She stood up, he grabbed her, got behind her and jabbed her in the right side of the neck with his knife, causing blood to flow. Some landed on the slats of the bed, and some between the bed and the nightstand. She put her hand to the wound and then left finger streaks on the wall. They moved diagonally across the room as she struggled to get free, until they were in front of the window. There he forced her to her knees. Gripping her face securely from behind with his left hand, he straddled her, reached around under her neck, plunged the knife up to the hilt in her throat, and pulled it upward and from left to right, creating a gash three inches long. She collapsed in front of the wardrobe, propping herself on her right hand while holding the left hand to this terrible wound. Wiithin seconds, she began to lose consciousness. Guede meanwhile dragged her out of the pool of blood to the spot where she was found. He rolled her over, pushed her shirt up, and cut off her bra while she was still gasping for breath. Then he removed her pants, put the pillow under her buttocks, used towels to dam up the flowing blood, and performed some kind of sexual violation. When he was finished, he threw the quilt over her, cleaned up in the bathroom, went back to her room to rummage through her purse, and fled the scene.

Thanks Charlie! As always, your posts are to the point and easy to understand. Now from a guilter's standpoint, where do AK & RS come into play? I've heard "they may not have stabbed her, but they were involved". This would seem to be the natural response to the "absence of evidence". After all, seems like there would be forensics that would easily point to their physical involvement. OK...so how were they otherwise involved?

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Thanks Charlie! As always, your posts are to the point and easy to understand. Now from a guilter's standpoint, where do AK & RS come into play? I've heard "they may not have stabbed her, but they were involved". This would seem to be the natural response to the "absence of evidence". After all, seems like there would be forensics that would easily point to their physical involvement. OK...so how were they otherwise involved?

If four people had been inside that room instead of two, the police would be able to prove it. They wouldn't be pinning their case on one trace of DNA on a metal bra hook, and luminol footprints in the hallway.