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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Do not feed the trolls

Please stop responding to the trolling posts. Although it may seem beneficial to use them to continue the discussion, they are driving the discussion in circles.

Such childish post as we've seen will do nothing to convince the many viewers of this thread that your arguments are invalid. Responding to those posts only gives them more than the zero exposure that they deserve.

If it helps, use the ignore feature of this board. I'm sure that if anything truly profound is said it will be quoted so you won't miss anything.
 
No before we get into anything complex......

Well if you genuinely don't follow my post*, quote it and highlight all the parts you can't understand. Others are free to do the same.
* of which you said ...

I don't understand what you've written, let alone what point you're trying to make. Please can you repeat it in comprehensible English?


ETA I said you wouldnt like it.:)

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So the upshot of this obtuse reply is that you're not prepared to say what your interpretation of the gastric/intestinal contents and ToD is? OK.
 
No its a newspaper report, the original testimony or Massei's treatment of same will clear the matter up.

That conspiracy theory is OT:) ... see AAH.

Now lets deal with this alibi confusion.

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From Massei:
He perceived the presence, at the end of the basketball court, of "two young people that were looking like two sweethearts discussing a bit in a heated way amongst them ... every some time one would get up and walk on the way where is the railing and look down" (page 5 hearing of March 28, 2009). He stated he had not seen them coming and when he looked down at the basketball court they were already there (p. 19). He remembers also the presence of other people. He reported of having seen the two young people until before midnight. He recognized the two people as the two defendants, who were in the room, he indicated them and specified he already knew them having seen them before, although never together but each on their own. (page 18 hearing of 28.3.2009). He added, as he left the Piazza shortly before midnight the two youngsters were not there anymore.

What is different between this and the newspaper report?

And it is both your prose and your brevity which make your posts difficult to understand. Massei couldn't be as elusive if he tried.
 
No its a newspaper report, the original testimony or Massei's treatment of same will clear the matter up.

That conspiracy theory is OT:) ... see AAH.

Now lets deal with this alibi confusion.

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Ahh OK. So you have the verbatim court testimony, I'm guessing. What does the verbatim court testimony say, and how does it contradict the contemporaneous media reporting of the trial? Or are you going to ignore this request too?
 
Please stop responding to the trolling posts. Although it may seem beneficial to use them to continue the discussion, they are driving the discussion in circles.

Such childish post as we've seen will do nothing to convince the many viewers of this thread that your arguments are invalid. Responding to those posts only gives them more than the zero exposure that they deserve.

If it helps, use the ignore feature of this board. I'm sure that if anything truly profound is said it will be quoted so you won't miss anything.

Ouch.:)

The forgetfulness issue hasn't been forgotten I guess - no hard feelings I hope.

I'm reminded of a thread that sought to show AK & RS were innocent with the curious caveat that no evidence against them would be allowed into the discussion.

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Well if you genuinely don't follow my post, quote it and highlight all the parts you can't understand.

Others are free to do the same.

But it may reflect badly on your claims to follow the somewhat more difficult prose in the Massei report or other court docs OR indeed the scientific evidence - gastric analysis for example. :)

I do accept that some here are genuinely confused by relative simple issues or even my posts - this may be down to my my brevity, my prose or my assumption that the posters here understand the basic facts of the case.

ETA If you (or others) don't understand ........

The evidence of Curatolo breaks the (initial*) alibis of both AK & RS.
then your (plural) confusion over the case & guilty verdict is understandable but unfortunately not amenable to a text based solution.;)
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platonov,
The fact that the court accepted Curatolo's testimony does not make it true. In fact that is what we are discussing here, Massei's reasoning on the reliability of the super witnesses. My opinion is that Curatolo's testimony was false testimony, I don't really care that the court decided he was reliable because in my opinion, he was not. Nor does he break Amanda's and Raffaele's alibi because what he said was not true. The truth remains the truth regardless of the courts reasoning. On the same note he does not provide Amanda or Raffaele with an Alibi on an earlier TOD because again what he said was not true and what Amanda and Raffaaele said was true, in my opinion.
 
No before we get into anything complex......

Well if you genuinely don't follow my post*, quote it and highlight all the parts you can't understand. Others are free to do the same.
* of which you said ...

I don't understand what you've written, let alone what point you're trying to make. Please can you repeat it in comprehensible English?


ETA I said you wouldnt like it.:)

.

...
 
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Please stop responding to the trolling posts. Although it may seem beneficial to use them to continue the discussion, they are driving the discussion in circles.

Such childish post as we've seen will do nothing to convince the many viewers of this thread that your arguments are invalid. Responding to those posts only gives them more than the zero exposure that they deserve.

If it helps, use the ignore feature of this board. I'm sure that if anything truly profound is said it will be quoted so you won't miss anything.

Yes true. I don't believe that platonov's arguments are made in good faith. I like to debate, but not in this kind of obtuse and obfuscatory manner. If platanov has a decent argument to offer, rather than simply a nihilistic reaction to others' arguments, then I might be interested. But until then, I'm out.
 
Ouch.:)

The forgetfulness issue hasn't been forgotten I guess - no hard feelings I hope.

I'm reminded of a thread that sought to show AK & RS were innocent with the curious caveat that no evidence against them would be allowed into the discussion.

.

You are welcome to present whatever evidence you want, what I see is you presenting your opinion that we are either wrong or don't understand. You seem to have no desire to argue your points other than to imply that we are wrong. I don't mind a debate with someone who is interested in debating but I have no intention of continuing to respond to posts that make no attempt at a debate.
 
Originally Posted by platonov

No its a newspaper report, the original testimony or Massei's treatment of same will clear the matter up.
That conspiracy theory is OT ... see AAH.

Now lets deal with this alibi confusion.


----------------



Ahh OK. So you have the verbatim court testimony, I'm guessing. What does the verbatim court testimony say, and how does it contradict the contemporaneous media reporting of the trial? Or are you going to ignore this request too?


Massei will do - did you miss the highlighted part.

I like to debate, but not in this kind of obtuse and obfuscatory manner.

Indeed ?

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platonov,
The fact that the court accepted Curatolo's testimony does not make it true. In fact that is what we are discussing here, Massei's reasoning on the reliability of the super witnesses. My opinion is that Curatolo's testimony was false testimony, I don't really care that the court decided he was reliable because in my opinion, he was not. Nor does he break Amanda's and Raffaele's alibi because what he said was not true. The truth remains the truth regardless of the courts reasoning. On the same note he does not provide Amanda or Raffaele with an Alibi on an earlier TOD because again what he said was not true and what Amanda and Raffaaele said was true, in my opinion.

RoseMontague - that's not the point I'm making.

You may well choose to regard Curatolo's testimony as suspect - I may even agree.

Thats not the point of the original post.

.
 
Yes true. I don't believe that platonov's arguments are made in good faith. I like to debate, but not in this kind of obtuse and obfuscatory manner. If platanov has a decent argument to offer, rather than simply a nihilistic reaction to others' arguments, then I might be interested. But until then, I'm out.

Nonsense.

I made a straightforward post, the central thrust of which was ..

"If his testimony is accepted, and it was - their alibis are gone."

and developed that idea.

and you responded

I don't understand what you've written, let alone what point you're trying to make. Please can you repeat it in comprehensible English?


If you don't wish to deal with the argument, its entirely up to you.

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Amanda's appeal points out that in two previous prosecutions Curatolo was brought to the police by the media and that
The Supreme Court has consistently held the absolute unreliability of texts that are driven by a morbid protagonist.

They also point out that on numerous occasions Curatolo indicates Amanda and Raffaele left at around midnight or shortly before midnight, only on one occasion does he give Mignini the time he is looking for, that of 11:00 to 11:30PM. The court (of course) goes with this one time rather than the numerous mentions of midnight simply because the cell phones were in the garden where they were found by 10 minutes after midnight. Amanda's appeal also quotes a good bit of Curatolo's testimony.
 
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Originally Posted by RoseMontague View Post
platonov,
The fact that the court accepted Curatolo's testimony does not make it true. In fact that is what we are discussing here, Massei's reasoning on the reliability of the super witnesses. My opinion is that Curatolo's testimony was false testimony, I don't really care that the court decided he was reliable because in my opinion, he was not. Nor does he break Amanda's and Raffaele's alibi because what he said was not true. The truth remains the truth regardless of the courts reasoning. On the same note he does not provide Amanda or Raffaele with an Alibi on an earlier TOD because again what he said was not true and what Amanda and Raffaaele said was true, in my opinion.



RoseMontague - that's not the point I'm making.

You may well choose to regard Curatolo's testimony as suspect - I may even agree.

Thats not the point of the original post.

.

I have highlited what I felt was your point (stated in my words), if your point is not that then you need to explain it better.
 
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Raffaele's appeal points out an additional problem with Curatolo's testimony. This is from thoughtful's summary of Raffaele's appeal:

They cite his testimony as to the fact that on the evening where he saw Amanda and Raffaele, he left the Piazza after the buses left taking young people to the discos. They then give the statement of the person responsible for organizing those buses (not heard in court but sought out by the defense) to the effect that there were no disco buses running on Nov. 1, as all the discos were closed. His testimony may therefore correspond to a different evening (possibly Oct. 31 since the buses were certainly running then).

The appeal is asking that the testimony of two witnesses that own bar/disco's there be heard during the appeal trial:

It therefore appears essential to the deepening of the topic and, therefore, re-opening the hearing with the taking of testimony Rita and George Pucciarini Brughini and holders of more dancing the district ("Red Zone", "degrees" and "Russian dolls") who (to time) the shuttle service, being new, important evidence for decision to appeal.
 
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No you have missed the point completely.

Read the post again - pay attention to the bolded & the highlighted sections.

I think if you had a point to make you would explain what it was and why I'd got it wrong.

I quoted both the highlighted and the bolded sections in your message. You are simply stating that Curatolo contradicts Amanda and Raffaele's alibi of being at his flat all night, and that the court accepted Curatolo's testimony.

That's nothing new to anyone here - they court demonstrated their lack of impartiality at every turn in the trial. Curatolo is not a credible witness.
 
I think if you had a point to make you would explain what it was and why I'd got it wrong.

I quoted both the highlighted and the bolded sections in your message. You are simply stating that Curatolo contradicts Amanda and Raffaele's alibi of being at his flat all night, and that the court accepted Curatolo's testimony.

That's nothing new to anyone here - they court demonstrated their lack of impartiality at every turn in the trial. Curatolo is not a credible witness.

His point is that curatolo's testimony is in conflict with AK/RS. He doesn't wish to discuss how its in conflict. Its just in conflict. Since he doesn't wish to discuss it, yall should just stop feeding the troll.
 
Originally Posted by Machiavelli View Post
The fact is, if I try to explain how I see the topic, it is something that must be contextualized and linked to the cross questioning of Filomena Romanelli. I didn't remember this Filomena's voice in the intercepted call, but the misunderstanding in a voice conversation can happen also between people both native of the same mother tongue. Think for example at the sound of words like "I called" and "I'll call". Is it possible to mistake one for another while you speak on the cell phone? It is certainly possible. The point is that you can never exclude a possible misunderstanding of words, if you base your judgement solely on an assessmnt the understanding of language. The level of comprehension and speaking of language actually is not the main factor in determining if the people understand each other in conversation. The understanding in a conversation, in this case dealing with basic language functions, is not something directly linked to the command of language but in the cases at the extreme ends, when the speakers both lack even of the very basic rudiments of the second language, certaily not the case of Amanda and Filomena. When people have a base or intermediate level of understanding they have the resources to understand each other properly on a topics that require the use of basic functions and basic grammar distinctions.
Whether they misunderstood each other, it is not something that we can speculate about based on their language skills, because they both have command of basic levels and they have resources to understand each other.
It is more important to examine their testimonies and recollections, their contextual actions and conversation, and their phone records.

I'm not sure I agree here. On the one hand you acknowledge that, even amongst native speakers, there's still plenty of scope for misunderstanding, especially via a phone call where the words may not be that clear anyway. On the other, you seem to say that it's only at an extremely basic level that someone's grasp of another language has any impact on their ability to understand and be understood by another person. I don't see any logical reason to accept that: it seems almost self-evident that if someone is talking in a language they're not fluent in, there's a much greater likelihood that they'll misunderstand or be misunderstood when speaking in that language. Obviously, that handicap would decrease in proportion to their fluency in that language, but it would always be an additional element in possible misunderstanding which wouldn't apply to the native speaker.

In this case, I would say that both Amanda and Filomena were at a basic level in Italian and English, so much so that the translator gives up and just says she can't understand Filomena's English. Filomena can't express herself well enough to be understood in English, so she switches to Italian. That in itself is an indication her English was pretty poor.

I remember you yourself saying in a previous post that Katody (I think it was) had misunderstood you because, not being a native speaker of English, you hadn't expressed yourself very well. Yet your English is excellent, and you were also expressing yourself in writing. How much more difficult would it have been for Filomena and Amanda (or Amanda and any of the others, for that matter) to understand each other, with their far more basic knowledge of each other's languages and in a spoken (even a telephone) conversation?

I have been thinking on your response to Michavelli's post katy_did, and i have to say that I agree with you. I found this of interest on one of Franks posts:

All the group meets 2 days later and they ask Amanda to explain her strange behavior (why she said that Meredith used to lock her door, etc.). Amanda speaks for 20 minutes. At the end Raffaele translates: because she was confused. 20 minutes reduce to this sentence.

This is really the story of a girl in a foreign country who didn't really have a common language with ANYONE. According to the witnesses she spoke 20 minutes and now we know that nobody understood what she said. Even she didn't understand that nobody understood.
Can it be ALL a misunderstanding?

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/02/amanda-diabolic-or-lost-in-translation.html

I think the communication problems and misunderstandings due to language issues have been vastly understated.
 
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Here is a human translated portion of Raffaele's appeal regarding the park bench gentleman:

3.4.2 – A. One of the two witnesses who, in the opinion of the Court, refuted Knox is Curatolo, a vagrant who at the time of the murder was often stationed on a bench in Piazza Grimana.
It needs to be stressed that, obviously, the defence cultivates no form of prejudice against Curatolo for the lifestyle he follows, even if the Court considered it necessary to argue credibility by making reference to it" (p. 70 sentenza): “a different lifestyle from the norm, but his testimony cannot be considered unreliable for this reason, since such a way of conducting his life does not affect his capacity to perceive events and to report them. Rather it should be observed that the frequentation of such places as Piazza Grimana and Corso Garibaldi gives credibility to the identification of people made by Curatolo relative to the places that for him were usual and constitute his habitat: in fact, living near the University for Foreigners and Corso Garibaldi, he appears a qualified observer of the people whom he reports having noticed and recognized”.
Some assessments in this respect also foist themselves onto the current defence.
If the Court considered it was able to define Curatolo as a “qualified observer” by virtue of his habitual frequentation of those places, on the other hand it should perhaps be considered that just this frequentation, inasmuch as it was habitual, may be a cause of confusion or erroneous or distorted perceptions.
To phrase it better: certainly Curatolo may report on the placement of the buildings around him, on the number of benches in Piazza Grimana, on who are the owners of the newsstand next to which he sleeps, etc., but since that area is frequented every day by hundreds of people, it is highly improbable that Curatolo could clearly memorize every face.
In the same way, it is even more difficult to believe that he could place with certainty, over time, the sequence of people passing through that Piazza.
In fact, it is undeniable that Curatolo’s days all elapsed with the same rhythm: hence the plausible difficulties for him of locating a certain episode – perhaps lacking significance – on a given day or in that preceding it or even in the following week. From this would follow, contrary to what was observed by the Court, the inability of Curatolo to perceive events and to be able to report them with the certainty required of the key testimony in a criminal trial.
It should not, in fact, be forgotten that Curatolo’s declarations were used by the Court as a finding from the preliminary investigation , in order to refute and contradict the reconstruction put forward by Amanda Knox of the progression of the evening of 1 November 2007; or rather, to claim that – contrary to what has been maintained by Knox (i.e. that she, along with Sollecito, remained at the home of the latter in Corso Garibaldi, without interruption, from the evening of 1 November to 10.00 on the day of 2 November) – the two young people would have spent the evening of 1 November from 21.30-22.00 until before midnight in Piazza Grimana (seen there by Curatolo).
But the reality of the facts refutes the idea that Curatolo, on that evening – which he indicated was 1 November 2007 – and in that time frame, could have seen Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito.
During the course of his testimony, Curatolo claimed – at least ten times – that on the evening of 1 November he arrived in Piazza Grimana about 21.30-22.00, and left about 23.30-24.00, making clear that he saw Raffaele and Amanda until a little before midnight (declarations of Antonio Curatolo, hearing 28.3.2009, pages 5, 6, 9, 10, 11, 12, 15, 16, 17, 25).
And yet in the judgment, it is even highlighted that “around 23.00 (a minute before, a minute after) Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were no longer in Piazza Grimana where Curatolo had seen them several times, beginning at 21.30 or 22.00” (p. 73). Such a reconstruction is the result of a very serious distortion of the testimony of the vagrant, since the judgment reaches such a conclusion by extrapolating one single piece of information from the testimony and supporting it with totally erroneous statements from other witnesses.
And indeed, after placing the time until which Amanda and Raffaele were present in Piazza Grimana at a little before midnight nine times (not an exaggeration, but a number obtained by reading the transcripts), on page 18 of his deposition Curatolo became confused and spoke of 23.00-23.30 instead of 23.30-24.00 (and even then he concludes the examination by repeating that he saw the young people until a little before midnight).
It appears significant that the judgment takes as its reference point the hour indicated just once by the witness, rather than that repeated ten times!
In order to affirm that Raffaele and Amanda left Piazza Grimana at 23.00, the judgment followed tortuous and illogical reasoning. On page 72, the sentencing report reads: “Curatolo, during the course of his examination and with specific regard to this issue, declared that he saw these young people until before midnight; he also claimed that when he left Piazza Grimana, which happened before midnight, the two young people were no longer there. It is therefore the same expression, before midnight, repeated twice, with a meaning which is necessarily not coincident but which can be inferred, on the basis of the same statements by Curatolo. If, in fact, when Curatolo left he did not see the two young people, and this happened before midnight, then the last time he saw them – indicated by the same expression: before midnight – would have been at an earlier time which could, therefore, have been at around 23.00 to 23.30”.
This is obviously earlier than the hour indicated by the witness, and not supported by any objective data.
Indeed, the elements of verification which were called upon by the judgment were not evaluated in any way.
Curatolo’s statements, according to the judgment, should be read together with those of the witnesses Maurizio Rosignoli and Alessia Ceccarelli, owners of the newsstand in Piazza Grimana. On the basis of the sentencing report, “the witness Maurizio Risognoli (see page 131, hearing of 19.06.2009) reported that buses departed for the clubs from Piazza Grimana, and at around 23.00-23.30 they are already there. On the basis of these elements it is therefore considered that Curatolo left the bench on Piazza Grimana between 23.00 and 23.30 (when he could see the buses leaving for the clubs, which Rosignoli indicated happened in exactly this time frame) and when he left the bench the two young people were no longer there” (pages 72 and 73 sentenza).
In reality the witness made clear reference to the hour in which the buses arrive in the Piazza, whilst the judgment erroneously maintained that such an hour would coincide with their arrival at the club, drawing the erroneous conclusion that Curatolo – in contrast with all the statements made by him – left his bench between 23.00 and 23.30.
On top of that, the judgment did not minimally consider that the statements of Rosignoli were reported by him in uncertain terms, since the kiosk has already been closed for a long time at that hour, and it does not appear that he made any use of the bus to go clubbing.
In relation to Ceccarelli, with respect to the presence of Curatolo in the area of Piazza Grimana on 2 November 2007, on page 73 the sentencing report reads: “Alessia Ceccarelli therefore reported knowing Curatolo, and specified that in this period he was on the bench next to the newsstand. She added that on 2 November 2007 she opened the newsstand and Curatolo was there (declarations of Alessi Ceccarelli hearing 23.6.2009, pages 122 and 126)”.
Such a statement is isolated from context, whilst totally ignoring the fact that, as Ceccarelli stated, the opening hours of the newsstand were 6.40 in the morning to 19.00 at night.
Well, Curatolo reported having spent the night between 1 and 2 November in the park and waking up around 8.30-9.00, going to get a cappuccino at the bar and then placing himself on the bench in Piazza Grimana (hearing 28.03.2009, p. 6).
And so it is clear that the statements of Ceccarelli, far from confirming Curatolo’s claims, emphatically refute them. And in fact, they confirm that the witness has clearly fallen into error.
It is clear, then, that neither Rosignoli nor Ceccarelli provide any support for the mere inferences of the judgment and, in fact, calling on them demonstrates total inconsistency.
Instead of properly scrutinizing the accusatorial hypothesis in the light of findings reported in the trial, the judgment took its validity for granted, misrepresenting Curatolo’s testimony.
It is enough to consider that, in line with the interval of time indicated throughout his testimony, Curatolo specified that he saw Raffaele and Amanda for almost two hours (hearing 28.3.2009, p. 17), whilst the reconstruction of the sentencing report reduces this period of time to a maximum of one hour.
In reality, Curatolo cannot refute Amanda’s account.
First of all, because it is unlikely that the young people, while having two free and comfortable houses at their disposal would stay at length in the cold to talk. What is more, according to what is stated in the judgment, with their cell phones turned off. The illogic of such a reconstruction is obvious: once again, instead of privileging linearity, it follows a tortuous path.
In addition, the evening indicated by Curatolo cannot have been 1 November 2007.
The judgment has inferred the credibility of the witness on the indications, provided by him, of the comings and goings of the Carabinieri on 2 November. In this regard it must be observed that the possibility that Curatolo saw between “13.30 and 14 (…) people dressed in white” (p. 71 sentenza) the day on which Meredith’s body was found, is highly improbable for two reasons. Since the body was found after 13.00, the scientific police (“the people dressed in white”) cannot have been there on 2 November at that hour; and perhaps the false timing of the image Curatolo has in mind is connected to a fact occurring on another day or even an episode taken from a news story.
Further, bear in mind that on the one hand the presence of Curatolo on 2 November cannot be confirmed by Ceccarelli’s statements; on the other, the judgment did not consider that the bus service for the clubs was not running that day (as declared ex 391 bis c.p.p. by the witnesses Pucciarini and Brughini).
So in light of the above, we should conclude the total unreliability of Curatolo’s testimony. In fact, contrary to what he declared, not only could he not have seen Amanda and Raffaele in the aforementioned time span (for the reasons mentioned above) but above all he could not have seen them on the evening of 1 November 2007.
If one wishes to disregard these findings and consider Curatolo reliable, paradoxically he would provide Amanda and Raffaele with an alibi, since at the moment of the crime – which the judgment places at a few minutes after 23.30 – the two young people would have been outside the house on Via della Pergola.
 
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hey all

imho this thread has descended to the point that it is an insult to the jref and its objectives. i suggest you all take a step back and go off to reread the available lit and vids etc. arguments keep surfacing, over and over, that have answers within massei or statements elswhere or whatever. both sides choose to ignore them when it suits their own belief.

and this is soley about your individual beliefs.

i, for one, will no longer take part in a thread so choc full of dogma, conspiracy and baseless conjecture. not tomention the constant ad homs and attacks on differing views.

hopefully the mods will soon realise the damage this thread is causing to the cred of the jref and its aims and end it now.

shame

lxxx
 
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