Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Draca]

Does anyone know what the T.O.D. was determined to be in Rudy Guede's trial ?

 

[platonov]

Ad hominem, and nonsense to boot. Are you suggesting that you, or someone else in this discussion is better qualified to judge on this point? In any case, you don't need to have undone the bra of an unwilling victim to know that touching the hooks doesn't happen.

Its neither ad hom nor nonsense.

I'm suggesting strongly that the various testimonies from posters about the how they remove their gf's (or own) bras is not relevant to a case where a sexual assault/murder victim (with few if any defensive wounds) is found in a pool of blood with her bra cut off and DNA from a suspect on the deformed clasp.

I believe I'm qualified to say unequivocally that such arguments are nonsense ; No more, No less.

"Perhaps" is not a word the prosecution is entitled to use. If the "guilty" verdict was based on "perhaps", then the whole thing is a mistrial.

Oh - just remembered. That's exactly what the verdict was based on - it's all in the Massei report.

As to this - an opinion was sought [in a facetious manner perhaps ] ; I gave one.
I am neither the prosecution nor Massei.

"Perhaps" your arguments are remarkably ill informed as regards what will get one off a murder charge.
Precise details of why & how a defendant cut the bra off a dead or dying victim are not necessary to convict.
.

 

[katy_did]

Frank has picked up on the similarities in the police handling of cousin Sabrina in the Sarah Scazzi murder, with a fantastic post here:

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2010/10/avetrana-like-perugia.html

I was just about to link to the same post, RM. Frank has certainly laid his cards on the table:

Because it’s clear that Sabrina Misseri doesn’t have anything to do with the death of Sarah Scazzi.

I started reading the judge's report (I think it's the order for precautionary custody? not sure) and there's quite a long section quoting Michele Misseri's questioning about Sabrina's involvement. I noticed exactly the same thing as Frank: that the police suggest the answers to him, and he either just says 'yes' or answers using exactly the same phrases as the police do in the questions.

 

[RoseMontague]

Its neither ad hom nor nonsense.

I'm suggesting strongly that the various testimonies from posters about the how they remove their gf's (or own) bras is not relevant to a case where a sexual assault/murder victim (with few if any defensive wounds) is found in a pool of blood with her bra cut off and DNA from a suspect on the deformed clasp.

I believe I'm qualified to say unequivocally that such arguments are nonsense ; No more, No less.

Raffaele's defense does not consider it to be nonsense as they argued it in the appeal and pointed out the the clasp appears to have been bent by someone trying to pull it apart (holding the material to each side).

Prof. Tagliabracci explained that in order to unfasten the hooks of the bra, Normally, grasp the side flaps of the cloth, and then are made Slide one on both sides until the release of the garment.
Any biological traces of who delivers the hooks should be found
then the sides of the fabric and not on the hooks, which are normally not are affected as too small, not grasped. Furthermore, deformation expansion with the opening angle bearing the hook indicates that it is was forced to cause the partial opening, that this operation implementing pulling the sides in fabric and not going to directly leverage on the metal, pulling nails.
These considerations, which meet the criteria of logic and good sense, not have been refuted above.

 

[RoseMontague]

Does anyone know what the T.O.D. was determined to be in Rudy Guede's trial ?

According to a quote I posted a few days back Rudy was assumed to have left by 10:30 per the report, so it would have to have been before that.

 

[katy_did]

I'm suggesting strongly that the various testimonies from posters about the how they remove their gf's (or own) bras is not relevant to a case where a sexual assault/murder victim (with few if any defensive wounds) is found in a pool of blood with her bra cut off and DNA from a suspect on the deformed clasp.

I believe I'm qualified to say unequivocally that such arguments are nonsense ; No more, No less.

Presumably the mechanism - the sliding of one part on top of the other - by which a bra clasp is opened would remain the same regardless, would it not? Hammerite on PMF said that (in his younger days) it was only when the planets were aligned a certain way that he could get within touching distance of a bra at all, but I'm not convinced even that planetary requirement would affect the clasp mechanism itself.

 

[platonov]

Now this is ironic. It's only the guilters on this thread who have tried to block anyone from citing particular journalists because they don't agree with their position on the case. I haven't seen anyone on the innocent side say we can or can't use this or that journalist as a source, only that whatever they are claiming must be weighed in context. For the record, Dempsey and Nadeau have both made factual errors about the case. But only Nadeau's mistakes turned out to be ones that could unfairly cause someone to think that there was more evidence against Amanda than there actually was (i.e. the blonde hairs). Dempsey as far as I can see has only made geographical errors that would in no way influence someone's opinion on guilt or innocence.

You appear to have missed the point, rather less ironically.

You may use any source you wish. I've used neither of these.

The main geographical error of Dempsey's was that she was in the US while the trial was in Italy.
There is also some debate over language issues but we don't want to revisit that.

.

 

[RoseMontague]

I was just about to link to the same post, RM. Frank has certainly laid his cards on the table:



I started reading the judge's report (I think it's the order for precautionary custody? not sure) and there's quite a long section quoting Michele Misseri's questioning about Sabrina's involvement. I noticed exactly the same thing as Frank: that the police suggest the answers to him, and he either just says 'yes' or answers using exactly the same phrases as the police do in the questions.

I have been following the Italian news reports daily and the funny thing is how they seem to follow the lead of the cops on this, time after time talking about diaries and cell phones and resentment of Sarah by Sabrina. Sad, really.

 

[platonov]

I have been following the Italian news reports daily and the funny thing is how they seem to follow the lead of the cops on this, time after time talking about diaries and cell phones and resentment of Sarah by Sabrina. Sad, really.

Now, with all due respect, this is OT - it may be fine for other sites but it won't do here.
The mods are overworked on this thread as it is.

.

 

[LondonJohn]

You appear to have missed the point, rather less ironically.

You may use any source you wish. I've used neither of these.

The main geographical error of Dempsey's was that she was in the US while the trial was in Italy.
There is also some debate over language issues but we don't want to revisit that.

.

So are you suggesting that unless one was in Italy during the trial then one is completely unqualified to write about the case? Even if one saw the court transcripts and interviewed many of the protagonists?

 

[Malkmus]

You appear to have missed the point, rather less ironically.

You may use any source you wish. I've used neither of these.

The main geographical error of Dempsey's was that she was in the US while the trial was in Italy.
There is also some debate over language issues but we don't want to revisit that.

.

Platanov, your two previous statements:

I thought it had already been established - C Dempsey is the only good source on this case.

B Nadeau BAD
C Dempsey GOOD

These were implying that those on the innocent side only accept Dempsey as a source and not Nadeau. This, of course, is a straw man, as nobody has ever said this. So, I merely pointed out the irony of the situation by noting that only the guilty side has tried block any journalists as acceptable sources. I wasn't saying you specifically are saying we can't use dertain people as a source. What you have seen the innocent side do is defend Dempsey as a reliable source when she is attacked merely for making geographical errors, while Nadeau gets carte blanche to say whatever, including factual errors about the case, things she shouldn't have gotten wrong, especially considering she was in Italy and that those errors would unfairly change the outcome of someone's opinion of guilt or innocence.

 

[LondonJohn]

Now, with all due respect, this is OT - it may be fine for other sites but it won't do here.
The mods are overworked on this thread as it is.

.

Surprisingly, I agree with you.

The Scazzi case, while interesting, isn't really relevant other than as another illustration of the Italian judicial system at work (and in that sense, it's relevant in discussing whether there are any systemic problems with the Italian justice system, but nothing more than that).

 

[katy_did]

I have been following the Italian news reports daily and the funny thing is how they seem to follow the lead of the cops on this, time after time talking about diaries and cell phones and resentment of Sarah by Sabrina. Sad, really.

I wonder also about the lack of dissenting voices in the press. Surely there are some serious journalists who write critical pieces about this kind of reporting? Hopefully there are and I just haven't come across them.

 

[LondonJohn]

I wonder also about the lack of dissenting voices in the press. Surely there are some serious journalists who write critical pieces about this kind of reporting? Hopefully there are and I just haven't come across them.

Funneling that back into the Kercher case, I wonder when John Follain's book is due for publication? He has a fairly good reputation as a quality investigative journalist, so his take on the case should be interesting.

 

[RoseMontague]

Surprisingly, I agree with you.

The Scazzi case, while interesting, isn't really relevant other than as another illustration of the Italian judicial system at work (and in that sense, it's relevant in discussing whether there are any systemic problems with the Italian justice system, but nothing more than that).

I disagree. I think it is also relevant as to the role the media plays in these high profile cases, just as the link that I posted in reference to the Elisa Claps case yesterday. Two very relevant connections, in my opinion, and not OT at all.

 

[Danceme]

It's funny how the prints on the bath mat don't show any signs of running that occur with other stains when you attempt to wash them out of fabric. Does anybody know what cleaning products could have been used to do this?

Blood doesn't tend to run if dried when you attempt to remove it. You tend to have to rub the fabric together to try and loosen the stain. Blood is also notoriously hard to remove from fabric and some stain removers even have a disclaimer on their label not promising removal of blood stains.

Not only that but what happened to the container, and the rags/mop they used also.

Raffaele worried about the rags too.

Why do you suppose he didn't just unfasten it the normal way, instead of bending the hook with his fingers?

He was inexperienced perhaps, in the way a recent virgin might have been.

I didn't miss the point. You're the only one making black-and-white value judgements on people's veracity here. Nice shoehorn in of the classic no-proper-argument word "conspiracy" again though. Well done.

London John, you seem to take great offence to the word "conspiracy" being used. Instead of groaning everytime someone uses the term perhaps you would do better by calling out your fellow innocentisti for perpetuating the myth.

DanO "However, there is no date or time stamp on this video and since it starts after everybody is inside it could have been produced anytime before Dec. 18 and played back from the tape for the benefit of those in the van."

And that's not the only example.

 

[Dan O.]

If anyone wants first hand experience on the accuracy of cell tower location services, I suggest that they sign up for Google Latitude. This free service that works in conjunction with Google maps on a smart phone displays your location based on the cell tower that the phone is connecting to. (Latitude will also use a GPS built into the phone if one is available so it would need to be disabled for this experiment).

I recently had Latitude enabled for a road trip and my location was all over the map. The first day my parents called to say I was over 1000 miles away from where I should have been (probably just a bad entry for a tower location). When on the road in the country it was not uncommon to have the location pinned to a town over 30 miles away instead of the closest cell tower in the next town.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

more falsehoods

You appear to have missed the point, rather less ironically.

You may use any source you wish. I've used neither of these.

The main geographical error of Dempsey's was that she was in the US while the trial was in Italy.
There is also some debate over language issues but we don't want to revisit that.

.

False. Candace covered many trial dates, and also covered the Supreme Court hearing. I do not believe that Barbie made the latter date.

 

[platonov]

Raffaele's defense does not consider it to be nonsense as they argued it in the appeal and pointed out the the clasp appears to have been bent by someone trying to pull it apart (holding the material to each side).

RS' defense are using testimony from guys about how they remove their gf's bras - really ?
The appeal is doomed already in that case or have you misunderstood the point of the discussion.

Presumably the mechanism - the sliding of one part on top of the other - by which a bra clasp is opened would remain the same regardless, would it not? ..............
............................................................

I fail to see the relevance of this.
I suspect [hope for RS' sake] that his defence team is concentrating on the salient issues.
One hopes they are less easily distracted by past (or imagined) glories.

.

 

[LondonJohn]

I wonder also about the lack of dissenting voices in the press. Surely there are some serious journalists who write critical pieces about this kind of reporting? Hopefully there are and I just haven't come across them.

Also, it's worth pointing out that the newspaper trade (in terms of reportage rather than investigative pieces) is not noted for its high accuracy, attention to detail, immunity to special interests, or lack of hyperbole. This is certainly true in the UK, and I imagine it's pretty true in Italy too.

Most reporters on daily newspapers are chiefly interested in generating "good copy", which is defined as something that the editor will want to place in the paper. So it often helps if their reporting is sensationalist, provocative, eye-catching, and/or even mildly sexually titillating. Once can easily see how both the Kercher case and the Scazzi case can be a dream ticket in these regards.

The other thing to bear strongly in mind is that newspapers are incredibly fond of leaning heavily upon "authority sources" - especially government spokespeople and the police. This is because they feel they have a high degree of automatic protection by using these sources, since if the government or police tell you something, then you as a journalist are unlikely to get much flak for printing it (plausible deniability etc). These sorts of authority sources are also one-stop-shop sources for many journalists, and can be cultivated for much use over many years. Conversely, many journalists just don't deem it worth their while to go to the trouble of tracking down the "other side" in these instances, since those sources will usually only be useful for one particular story - and they often also lack the immediate "credibility factor" of government or police sources.

The other point to bear in mind is that many of the international reporters who wrote about the Kercher case were (and are) merely freelance stringers - they are not salaried employees of media companies, and rely on selling their work story-by-story. For them, there is even more of an imperative to ratchet up the drama within their copy, since if it doesn't appear in the paper, they don't get paid. Nick Pisa and Andrea Vogt fall firmly into this category. Pisa has an interesting reputation amongst international journalists......