Rand Paul supporter tries to 'curb' a Moveon.org member

[PS13]

The voice of reason, I think, would say this...

1. What was done to her was WAY OUT OF LINE, and charges are appropriate.
2. Rand Paul should have immediately condemned it, but at least he (through his people) did eventually do so.
3. The shoulder versus head, stomp versus heavy push is important, because it is important to give an ACCURATE description of the incident, so as to avoid INFLAMMATORY EMBELLISHMENT of what happened, which would be done solely for political reasons.
4. After reviewing the video many times, I feel that the SHOULDER was what was shoved/pushed, and it was done so much harder then would ever be needed for "restraint". The head seems to have been struck on the concrete below as a result of the motion. She did sustain a head injury, but based on my viewing of the tape, I would suspect it was secondary to the push of the shoulder causing her head to strike the concrete.
5. Semantics I am usually not in favor of debating, but I think when accuracy is important, here to avoid politically motivated embellishment, then one must try to be accurate.

TAM - A LIBERAL

Yeah. after watching it a few more times I can see that he pushed his foot onto her shoulder & part of the heel may or may not have rolled back onto her head.
It just burns me up when men treat women that way, especially when said men are much bigger than said woman. They shouldn't of put her on the ground at all. She has every right to protest, try to get a picture w/ Paul, try to hand him a fake award, whatever she wants. I can't buy any excuse that these guys thought she was a physical threat to Paul or his safety.

I agree with all your points except for number 2. I can't let Paul off that easy.

I haven't heard Paul personally say that what the guy did was over the top and or uncalled for. He should of called the guy out personally. He has said what he said through his people, his campaign.
Can he just flat out say, with his voice to a TV camera so we all can see it, that it was wrong and uncalled for, over the top... ? That first interview he did on Fox was lame & he didn't call out the guy for being a thug moron who shouldn't of treated a woman like he did.

Later on he talked through his people & to me that's BS. Sorry, if I were running for office I'd personally rip the guy and not speak through my campaign people.


But yes, I agree that accuracy is best when talking about this situation.

 

[daenku32]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0105275/

 

[eeyore1954]

They shouldn't of put her on the ground at all. She has every right to protest, try to get a picture w/ Paul, try to hand him a fake award, whatever she wants. I can't buy any excuse that these guys thought she was a physical threat to Paul or his safety.

That first interview he did on Fox was lame & he didn't call out the guy for being a thug moron who shouldn't of treated a woman like he did.

The way I hear it someone had noticed her in the crowd and they had contacted the police already. Do you think it was business as usual that she was put on the ground or is it possible that they thought she was up to something bad.

I am wondering if you could buy the excuse that they thought maybe she had a gun. I guess you are right women with wig disguises can't have guns.

That first interview he did on Fox was lame
Yes he would have been much smarter to not wait and find out all of the fact.
Does the Dept of Agriculture ring a bell?


Disclaimer: This does not mean I feel all people with views disagreeing with Rand Paul should be stomped. If I believed that my head would have to be stomped also.

 

[T.A.M.]

1. Unless they were his official security detail, they had NO right to touch her at all. If they were his security detail, then they are suppose to, unless they felt he was in immediate danger, identify themselves as security.

2. allgedly she had only a sign, and the wig, on her. The award was not a trophy, but rather just a labeling as "employee of the month" for Republicorp, a fictitious merger group between the REP party and corporate america. One can spin it all they want, it was still excessive and uncalled for.

TAM

 

[Accidental Martyr]

Attacker wants apology from victim.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/27/rand-paul-supporter-tim-profitt_n_774614.html

 

[Gandalfs Beard]

I honestly am astounded that so many JREFers think arguing about whether the attacker "stomped" (as opposed to "gently" placing his foot on the victim I suppose)--and whether it was on her head vs her shoulder--is relevant.

And some of these posters are self-described "liberals"; Rush Limbaugh would be proud of you.

GB

 

[T.A.M.]

I honestly am astounded that so many JREFers think arguing about whether the attacker "stomped" (as opposed to "gently" placing his foot on the victim I suppose)--and whether it was on her head vs her shoulder--is relevant.

And some of these posters are self-described "liberals"; Rush Limbaugh would be proud of you.

GB

I want to clarify it not to belittle in any manner, the horrible act that he committed, but to be the better person, and not to, as the other side so often does, allow over embellishment and inflammatory language
(always used for political gain) to be the accepted standard. Not only is it inaccurate and serve no purpose, but it gives ammo for those who TRULY defend what he did, to say the other side is blowing it outof proportion.

"he curb stomped her!". "he smashed her skull intothe cement!". Do these suit it better? Are they an accurate reflection of that video.

Sometimes i can see why the Right wing call us liberals hyperbolic blowhards.

TAM

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Do you have the response that blamed the victim? And do you really believe what you post?

It was Paul's first press interview at the scene after the incident. The guy who did the stepping on the woman was standing right next to Paul. Paul's words were not "it was out of line". Instead he said something to the effect both sides were at fault. Here is the approximate quote:

SFGate Blog

Rand Paul said Tuesday the rough treatment meted out by one of his supporters to a woman outside of his debate with Democrat Jack Conway was a consequence of passionate feelings on both sides and a "crowd control problem."

 

[leftysergeant]

"he curb stomped her!". "he smashed her skull intothe cement!". Do these suit it better? Are they an accurate reflection of that video.

Sometimes i can see why the Right wing call us liberals hyperbolic blowhards.

TAM

It was an over-reaction, and a result of the natural outrage that a thinking person must feel when fringe lunatic political activists assault an opponent.

Not everyone has the patience or the analytical skill you have to dissect the evidence.

This is, of course, a fact that the whackjobs behind this action use to skew public opinion to their side. Like in the Gladney incident. We have video of the rightwing extremists who had come to disrupt the event gang-stomping a man and then claiming that the victim had assaulted a dim-wit teatard.

It is time for these shrieking lunatics to be brought to heel, but, I agree that they need to be hauled into court on the proper charges.

I should point oput that even stomping on a person's shoulder can cause life-threatening or disabling injuries. The clavical and ribs, fro instance, are remarkably fragile structures. Just falling to the curb can break them. I would hardly consider being stepped on by a pissed off lunatic a benign event.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The way I hear it someone had noticed her in the crowd and they had contacted the police already. Do you think it was business as usual that she was put on the ground or is it possible that they thought she was up to something bad.....

I think it's a given they knew what she wanted to do. But it was a peaceful tactic. The idea was to get her sign condemning Paul in a photo with Paul in the frame. Hardly some violent attack on Paul. It wasn't even a pie in the face kind of incident. All they had to do was crowd her out. Instead they treated her like one suspects many of the radical right would do if they could, violently.

 

[BeAChooser]

http://thehayride.com/2010/10/rand-...ly-arrested-for-vandalizing-ship-at-fourchon/

Interestingly enough, the activist – whose name is Lauren Valle – seems to have spent some time in Louisiana earlier this year. And Valle picked up a citation for rather uncivil conduct during her stay in the Sportsman’s Paradise.

Per the Lafourche Parish Sheriff’s Office:

Sheriff Craig Webre and Harbor Police Chief John Callais announced the arrest of seven Greenpeace activists in Port Fourchon. A complaint came in at approximately 12:45 PM stating the seven had boarded a vessel at Port Fourchon and painted messages with an unknown substance on different areas of the ship. The messages were directed to Interior Secretary Ken Salazar. A representative for Salazar was at Port Fourchon this morning while other dignitaries congregated in Galliano with Secretary Salazar and Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano regarding the ongoing oil spill impacting the Louisiana coastline. Those arrested were:

… snip …

• Lauren Valle (W/F, DOB 5/4/87, ... snip ..., MA)

… snip …

The seven had been seen in the area for the past week and had been repeatedly warned by law enforcement not to hamper clean up operations and not to trespass. Greenpeace is known for pre-planning and coordinating similar protests to bring attention to environmental issues. Pictures of the vandalism appeared on the Greenpeace website within minutes of the arrest of the activists.

… snip …

The New York Daily News reports Valle, a 23-year old Columbia religion graduate, was hired by MoveOn.org for three weeks to work on the “Republicorp” project in Kentucky; it can only be assumed her role was to follow Paul around and attempt to embarrass him.

And as someone else in the internet world noted …

… give her a few years and she'll be planting bombs.

By the way, here's a video of Lauren Valle charging Rand Paul's vehicle as it arrived and trying to shove her sign through the window. One might view that as menacing or assaultive behavior, and her being at the event and then continuing attempts to approach Rand Paul as stalking, both of which are illegal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yiLeud-sxrM

 

[T.A.M.]

Okay, that was a little snarky of me TAM. But seriously, wake up and smell the Tea. The Extreme Right are fomenting political violence, and if we don't stand up to them with equally strong rhetoric (and with our bodies) we're just asking for an American Reich.

GB

I agree, you have to fight back. However, there is an honor to it...if not for them, then for those of us who believe in the truth, and honesty, and fair play.

Now, if you read all I have posted on this matter, I have on many occasions stated that the act was deplorable. You will also find i have condemned the person who did it, and Rand Paul for not (A) Personally going to her to see she was ok, and (B) not condemning immediately the action.

What I have also, consistently said though, is if we are to continue to see ourselves, in our heart of hearts, as on the right side of things, and as the ones who, win or lose, played fair (so to speak) then we have to make sure (where we can) that we are accurate in our accusations. We also should refrain from hyperbole and inflammatory embellishment, as all it does is (A) cause the other side to get their backs up even further, and (B) provides ammo for them to criticize that we are hypocrits when we call them on such things.

TAM

 

[Brainster]

What she was doing prior to being thrown to the ground.


Note the way she attempts to shove the sign into the car; so her claim that she was just there to hold a sign is a lie. The security apparently alerts on her as a possible threat, but they appear to only push her away at that point. It is not until she runs clear around the car to approach Paul from behind (see 0:53-0:56) that she is restrained more forcefully.

I am not saying that she should have been stepped or stomped on. But I can certainly understand why she raised concern.

 

[Gandalfs Beard]

http://thehayride.com/2010/10/rand-...ly-arrested-for-vandalizing-ship-at-fourchon/



And as someone else in the internet world noted …

… give her a few years and she'll be planting bombs.

By the way, here's a video of Lauren Valle charging Rand Paul's vehicle as it arrived and trying to shove her sign through the window. One might view that as menacing or assaultive behavior, and her being at the event and then continuing attempts to approach Rand Paul as stalking, both of which are illegal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yiLeud-sxrM

Did she actually attack anyone physically? Did she ACTUALLY plant Bombs? I don't see that in any of the charges.

I do note that you made a point of reposting her address.

GB

 

[varwoche]

I honestly am astounded that so many JREFers think arguing about whether the attacker "stomped" (as opposed to "gently" placing his foot on the victim I suppose)--and whether it was on her head vs her shoulder--is relevant.

And some of these posters are self-described "liberals"; Rush Limbaugh would be proud of you.

GB

I agree that the placement of the thug's foot doesn't change anything. But the thing is, this is a skeptical forum, not a political soapbox (appearances notwithstanding), and as skeptics we should strive to be factual.

 

[T.A.M.]

It was an over-reaction, and a result of the natural outrage that a thinking person must feel when fringe lunatic political activists assault an opponent.

Not everyone has the patience or the analytical skill you have to dissect the evidence.

This is, of course, a fact that the whackjobs behind this action use to skew public opinion to their side. Like in the Gladney incident. We have video of the rightwing extremists who had come to disrupt the event gang-stomping a man and then claiming that the victim had assaulted a dim-wit teatard.

It is time for these shrieking lunatics to be brought to heel, but, I agree that they need to be hauled into court on the proper charges.

I should point oput that even stomping on a person's shoulder can cause life-threatening or disabling injuries. The clavical and ribs, fro instance, are remarkably fragile structures. Just falling to the curb can break them. I would hardly consider being stepped on by a pissed off lunatic a benign event.

Not to beat this horse into glue, but...

1. I am the first to agree that this was not a love tap, or even as you call it a benign event.

2. Do not forget, lefty, what I do for a living. I am well aware of what kind of force it takes to break a humerus or a clavicle, or a wrist. As I mentioned, we witnessed the SEVERE push on her shoulder with his foot force her upper torso to dramatically bend. It was also the likely cause of her head injury, and according to a moveon.org spokesperson, caused her to have a concussion. The concussion is possible, as a G1 concussion takes very little trauma in some instances. Unless she was osteoporotic, I doubt that she would have suffered from broken bones from what I witnessed, but it is still, as pointed out, in the realm of possibles. In the end, the degree of force was VERY EXCESSIVE, and assault charges were RIGHTFULLY filed.

3. My continued call for ACCURACY on the description of actions and injuries in the matter is, as I have said, to avoid inflammatory embellishment for the purpose of political grandstanding. We see it on the other side of the argument all the time, but I think we should where possible rise above it. You have seen me call for the same attitude when I use to post over in 9/11 CT.

TAM

 

[Gandalfs Beard]

I agree that the placement of the thug's foot doesn't change anything. But the thing is, this is a skeptical forum, not a political soapbox (appearances notwithstanding), and as skeptics we should strive to be factual.

She was thrown to the ground and head-stomped (released from hospital with a concussion). Please parse that some more, to demonstrate your attempt to be "factual" why don't you.

GB

 

[BeAChooser]

Did she actually attack anyone physically?

How would you like to have a sign shoved in your face as is clearly seen in that video? Did you even look at the video, GB, before responding to me?

 

[BeAChooser]

(released from hospital with a concussion)

And your proof that she suffered a concussion is?

 

[Gandalfs Beard]

How would you like to have a sign shoved in your face as is clearly seen in that video? Did you even look at the video, GB, before responding to me?

Already seen it. It's all over the net on Right Wing sites defending violence against against liberals and leftists.

GB