Public Education is a Socialist Monopoly

[bikerdruid]

What school division? I will be stepping into the education field as a teacher in northern Alberta, Canada, and my starting salary will be just under 50,000 based on zero years experience and four years of university. Of course, cost of living is pretty high so that's not too spectacular. If I take a full-time job, I can expect 11+ hour days, including at least one weekend day, and using at least half of the summer to prepare yearly plans, unit plans, and gather resources - I believe one of the other posters referred to this.

To get slightly back on topic, I can speak as a person currently undergoing teacher training that a shift is starting to occur. We are starting to get away from knowledge-based education and teaching students to be effective critical thinkers (I think we can all agree from our experiences on these boards that many people are seriously lacking this skill).

The difficulty is that most of us were taught in a system that valued knowledge more than the ability to think, and as the saying goes, "old habits die hard". The paradigm shift is starting but the transition will take some time.

peace river #10...however, the pay scale is pretty similar all over the province.

 

[ria_rokz]

If you are referring to teachers as seriously lacking in "this skill" (knowledge-based education and teaching students to be effective critical thinkers), I agree.

New York City schools were featured on a national news investigation a few years ago, and they showed a huge building where hundreds of incompetent teachers were housed daily. They teach nobody. They do whatever they want. They cannot be fired because of the teachers' union.

It is disgraceful. What have teachers done to correct this abomination?

It is widespread throughout America, this inability to fire incompetent teachers.

Eh... wut? The skill I referred to was the ability to think critically, not knowledge-based education. Knowledge-based education had value before the internet, but now we have free and nearly unlimited access to information and therefore need to learn how to evaluate sources. This requires critical thinking.

So the New York City system is corrupt. That doesn't mean all public education is corrupt. But wait, this only refers to one school. Do you have an article that discusses this? Are there other examples of this? One single instance of anecdotal evidence is rather weak.

Obviously there are issues that need to be rectified, but I think you are unfairly categorizing teachers into one single lump. Actually, you imply that teachers should be firing teachers. That technically is more up to administrators and school boards, and these people are not necessarily teachers.

Furthermore, not all teachers' unions are so bad. The Alberta Teachers' Association is more than just a union.

 

[ria_rokz]

peace river #10...however, the pay scale is pretty similar all over the province.

True, although I've noticed when I go through the collective agreements it is a bit lower in Edmonton and Calgary. I compared PRSD with PWSD and saw they were pretty much the same.

 

[bikerdruid]

Furthermore, not all teachers' unions are so bad. The Alberta Teachers' Association is more than just a union.

after many years as a member, and many thousands paid in dues, i think the ATA is a money guzzling bureaucracy.
i'm not a big fan. sorry.
if it was an effective union, classroom conditions would be a lot better in conservative-stricken alberta.

 

[majamin]

New York City schools were featured on a national news investigation a few years ago, and they showed a huge building where hundreds of incompetent teachers were housed daily. They teach nobody. They do whatever they want. They cannot be fired because of the teachers' union.

It is disgraceful. What have teachers done to correct this abomination?

It is widespread throughout America, this inability to fire incompetent teachers.

Turn down the rant-o-matic. It's getting in the way of a productive discussion. It would be neat-o if you could kick the hyperbole habit while you're at it ("they teach nobody", "they do whatever they want"), and lay out the evidence to illustrate the grim 'reality' of the teaching profession. A news investigation does NOT cut it. Anecdotes and personal experiences do NOT cut it.

I'd be happy to discuss the "firing of incompetent teachers", but not in the way you're engaging in it.

 

[Doubt]

Funny that no leftist EVER questions the veracity of a fellow lefty.

Doubt doesn't ask YOU to "put up or shut up." Only me.
Such is the integrity, the fairness, the honesty of the left.

As if HIS investigations would be fair and objective, much less conclusive.

bikerdruid is in Canada. Not very relevant to your claims about US teachers. I told you why I wanted the info. Can you not support your claim? Also, he told us a location. That can be used to verify what he claims. You have supplied nothing.

Also, you have no clue if I am left or right. Asking you for info does not = left. Challenging you to support your claims does not = left. It's called being a skeptic. Put up or shut up. Stop playing games. If the facts are on your side this should not be a problem for you. Otherwise, the null hypothesis is what we are left with.

How hard can this be? Are you telling the truth or are you lying?

Supply the info so we can see if it is true.

 

[Travis]

Okay, let us assume that teachers are being paid $95,000 a year. I'd like you to argue why they shouldn't be paid that much.

Conversely I'd like you to explain why CEO's that show up to work a couple of times a week to issue nonsensical catch phrases for a couple of hours before returning home to snort cocaine off of hookers are deserving of their multimillion dollar salaries.


Also I'd like you to imagine just what things might be like without teachers unions. They are not the monsters that you have made them out to be.

 

[Jeff Corey]

...New York City schools were featured on a national news investigation a few years ago, and they showed a huge building where hundreds of incompetent teachers were housed daily. They teach nobody. They do whatever they want. They cannot be fired because of the teachers' union.

It is disgraceful. What have teachers done to correct this abomination?

It is widespread throughout America, this inability to fire incompetent teachers.

Ya know, I live in NY, relatively near The City, and never heard about those "hundreds of teachers".
How about you do your homework and find a reliable reference for this claim. Not the National Inquirer or the Teabag Daily Rag, please.

 

[Travis]

My dad had many dealings with the teachers union here in California over the years and he had nothing but respect for them. Many a time a school wanted to throw a teacher under the bus because they were older and earning more (younger teachers are cheaper) and they would stop that crap cold.

 

[Garrison0fMars]

i am a retired teacher in northern alberta, canada.
my current salary, with 6 years of university, and maximum experience grid, would currently be just over $100,000.
not bad for 200 days of work per year. (the teaching year in alberta)

Isn't Johnathan talking about the US educational system, not the Canadian one?

 

[Garrison0fMars]

My dad had many dealings with the teachers union here in California over the years and he had nothing but respect for them. Many a time a school wanted to throw a teacher under the bus because they were older and earning more (younger teachers are cheaper) and they would stop that crap cold.

Unions always make great scapegoats, and weakening them has the added bonus of making it easier to implement bad working conditions (Since that's usually cheap after all).

 

[Alt+F4]

Turn down the rant-o-matic. It's getting in the way of a productive discussion. It would be neat-o if you could kick the hyperbole habit while you're at it ("they teach nobody", "they do whatever they want"), and lay out the evidence to illustrate the grim 'reality' of the teaching profession. A news investigation does NOT cut it. Anecdotes and personal experiences do NOT cut it.

I'd be happy to discuss the "firing of incompetent teachers", but not in the way you're engaging in it.

I'm not sure what his rant is about either because the situation in NYC is two-fold. Group A are called ATRs and they not incompetent teachers. They are teachers who's schools have closed and they no longer have a position. Why haven't they found jobs in other schools? The answer depends on who you ask. Most of the teachers in the ATR pool are mid-career or late-career teachers and other schools might not want to pick up their high salaries. The real reason I suspect though is that schools only want new teachers who they can train "their way".

Group B are teachers who have been accused of educational incompetence and/or misbehavior (translation: doing something inapproiate with a student). The "rubber rooms" these teacher were being kept in were closed down in June. The majority of cases were resolved one way or another and the teachers deemed not acceptable to be around children were sent to work in department offices. The problem everyone agreed was that it took way too long to dispense with these cases.

 

[Craig4]

We're all still waiting for a viable solution. Vouchers aren't realistic. Look at the number of private schools versus the number of public schools. You have far more students than a private students can accommodate. That won't work. What would you like the educational system to do?

 

[MattusMaximus]

Or to get rid of one, at any level ranging from kindergarden to graduate school, once they get tenure.

Agreed. There are some tenured teachers who just need to go.

 

[MattusMaximus]

Then why are there hundreds of applications for jobs as teachers, hmmm?

This overlooks the fact that while there are indeed many applications for teacher positions, there are also (in this economy) many applications for other jobs. People are out of work, and teachers are no different - even in my district (very well-to-do) we've had to lay people off.

Besides, if it is so easy, why don't you throw your hat into the ring?

 

[cwalner]

This overlooks the fact that while there are indeed many applications for teacher positions, there are also (in this economy) many applications for other jobs. People are out of work, and teachers are no different - even in my district (very well-to-do) we've had to lay people off.

Besides, if it is so easy, why don't you throw your hat into the ring?

Yeah, I remember a story a few years back (even before the economy completely tanked) that a new WalMart opening would get about 1000x as many aplicants as they had positions to fill. I doubt many people think that WalMart empolyees are overpaid.

 

[blutoski]

Isn't Johnathan talking about the US educational system, not the Canadian one?

Last I saw he was talking about mutual funds or something.

My suggestion is to switch to 'ignore' to move forward with any actual discussion.

 

[JonathanQuick]

after many years as a member, and many thousands paid in dues, i think the ATA is a money guzzling bureaucracy.
i'm not a big fan. sorry.
if it was an effective union, classroom conditions would be a lot better in conservative-stricken alberta.

Bravo, sir. Bravo.

Had a conservative said such a thing, he would have been mauled by your pals.
There would have been demand after demand to "prove" your allegations.

But anything stated by a Democrat/liberal is instantly accepted by the rest of the herd, as if it were Obamian gospel.

"When children start paying union dues, then I'll start representing them." - Albert Shanker, union boss

 

[JonathanQuick]

This overlooks the fact that while there are indeed many applications for teacher positions, there are also (in this economy) many applications for other jobs. People are out of work, and teachers are no different - even in my district (very well-to-do) we've had to lay people off.

Your errors, One Eye, are these:

1. When the economy was MUCH BETTER, there were still more applicants than positions for teaching jobs.

2. Your fellow teachers are giggling about their cushy jobs, their easy hours, long vacations, and high pay, and you said NOTHING to any of them.

Double standards like this are rampant among the left. But I repeat myself.

3. The first ones to go are usually the janitors, and other classified employees.

4. Administrations EVERYWHERE are grotesquely bloated, as even teachers will admit, but only if they are honest. Administrations should be cut first.

Besides, if it is so easy, why don't you throw your hat into the ring?

I am not a sheep. I will not stand by as cheerleaders for Barack Obama and socialism brainwash impressionable kids. I will not follow the diktat of a union boss who orders me out to the curb to wave a sign demanding more money for "the kids."

Moreover, I graduated in the top few percentage points of my college classes, not in the bottom third, like the average teacher.

I know, I know, you are an exception as well. But education majors have the lowest SAT score, on average, of any stated major.

Finally, I don't need the money. Oh, and there are no openings. You just said that, didn't you. How could I get hired when your peers are all getting laid off.

P.S. The private sector places a very great emphasis on "experience."

What "experience" do you have in the private sector that would open doors to high-paying jobs in physics for you?

 

[JonathanQuick]

Okay, let us assume that teachers are being paid $95,000 a year. I'd like you to argue why they shouldn't be paid that much.

Reason #1: Beginning teachers at the same district are paid roughly HALF as much, for doing the same work. Do you like being paid half as much as your peer for doing the same work?

Reason #2: $95,000 for 9 months work is really quite excessive. That's the reason there are so many applicants per opening.

Reason #3: Education majors score lower on SAT scores, on average, than any other major. If for no other reason, this is sufficient to pay considerably less than $95,000 a year.

We continue:

Conversely I'd like you to explain why CEO's that show up to work a couple of times a week to issue nonsensical catch phrases for a couple of hours before returning home to snort cocaine off of hookers are deserving of their multimillion dollar salaries.

You're quite right, of course. ALL CEOs earn "multimillion dollar salaries" and work "for a couple of hours" after which they "snort cocaine off of hookers."

You're a teacher, right?
You lecture to kids, right?
You hate people who "generalize," right?
And who "don't get their facts straight"?

Brilliant, sir. Absolutely brilliant.

Also I'd like you to imagine just what things might be like without teachers unions. They are not the monsters that you have made them out to be.

Imagine thousands of private schools, all over America. As I said, the Clintons and the Gores and the Obamas all sent their kids to Sidwell Friends School.

IMAGINE that.....

But, hey, those Catholic schools, without teachers unions - bad, all bad.

I really pity teachers, who seem to be too afraid to face the world without their union boss behind them, protecting them from all evils and injustices.

How on earth do the hundreds of millions of Americans survive without belonging to unions.....