Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[LondonJohn]

Ah it gets better! Apparently people don't get murdered in restaurants or supermarkets. And apparently the fact that Lumumba's bar was closed for months (despite clearly not having any sort of physical connection to Meredith's murder) is further evidence in support of the "crack" Perugia police.

Well, in fact, Italy has a fair deal of experience of people being murdered in public places, thanks to that little-known group, Cosa Nostra (a.k.a. the Mafia). Restaurants and bars are a common place for assassinations, since the victim can usually either be lured there or found there with some predictability.

Here's one such murder, from last year:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor.../Mafia-killing-in-Italy-caught-on-camera.html

And the Perugia police's enforced closure of Lumumba's bar was outrageous - and, I suspect, unlawful. No crime was committed there - a fact which would have taken the police just days to verify. It's simply contrary to the public interest to allow the police to seal crime scenes (let alone NON-crime scenes) for months on end, when they should easily be able to efficiently and accurately complete all necessary analysis and collection within days (or a few weeks at the absolute maximum in very complicated crime scenes).

 

[LondonJohn]

Is it easy and comfortable or does it take five hours and a photobucket account? Make up your mind.

Yes, that is what I really think, and I am pretty sure that is what everyone else really thinks, too. It's odd that this is so important to you, yet you never thought to make a copy of it the other times you looked it up and saw it on line.

Tell you what. If you want to win this one, all you have to do is try to tear yourself away from your daily viewing of The Big Lebowski, get in your car, zip across the 520 bridge, go to the King County Courthouse (do you still have parking privileges?), go to whichever floor it is where they keep the records now, and have them make you a copy. Then you can scan it and have it on your hard drive for the next time you try to make the claim.

I won't hold my breath.

Ah yes! Jackie Treehorn! I'm annoyed with myself for taking so long to get the reference. A few things make more sense now.....

 

[Withnail1969]

And the Perugia police's enforced closure of Lumumba's bar was outrageous - and, I suspect, unlawful. No crime was committed there - a fact which would have taken the police just days to verify. It's simply contrary to the public interest to allow the police to seal crime scenes (let alone NON-crime scenes) for months on end, when they should easily be able to efficiently and accurately complete all necessary analysis and collection within days (or a few weeks at the absolute maximum in very complicated crime scenes).

I never understood that. Why was Patrick's bar sealed for such a long time? What possible justification was there for that?

I got one very strong impresssion from that scenario - if influential people in Perugia want to crush you, they will find a way. And they did.

 

[LondonJohn]

I never understood that. Why was Patrick's bar sealed for such a long time? What possible justification was there for that?

I got one very strong impresssion from that scenario - if influential people in Perugia want to crush you, they will find a way. And they did.

There was no possible justification for it. I can only suppose that the police and prosecutors had egg on their faces for announcing the case "closed" with Lumumba announced as the main protagonist. When they were made to look more than a little stupid by his cast-iron alibi, it seems like they were determined to try to prove that he had something to do with criminal activity, so as to "justify" their prior position. They failed miserably.

 

[Kaosium]

Here's one such murder, from last year:

"A man holding a toddler in his arms looks at the victim and walks away, while a woman is seen rubbing off her scratch-and-win lottery card as the execution takes place. No witnesses have so far come forward."

I wonder if these two are going to be investigated for being potential sociopaths?

 

[Machiavelli]

This was in the Amanda's testimony section at PMF that thoughtful translated, I believe you guys had the audio at one time (I can't link there at the moment for some reason). It was a conversation played of an intercepted call between Amanda and Filomena regarding getting out of the rental contract on the flat. The court translator was having a hard time with Filomena's English as well as Amanda's Italian, as was thoughtful, if I am remembering correctly.

The fact is I have never listened to this intercepted call. I read some transcript of parts of it, but I don't have this transcript and never heard Filomena's voice speaking in English.

 

[Withnail1969]

The fact is I have never listened to this intercepted call. I read some transcript of parts of it, but I don't have this transcript and never heard Filomena's voice speaking in English.

Perhaps PMF has a copy. Why don't you ask your masters?

 

[katy_did]

The fact is I have never listened to this intercepted call. I read some transcript of parts of it, but I don't have this transcript and never heard Filomena's voice speaking in English.

You must have heard parts of the testimony, though? You mentioned earlier that one of Comodi's statements was actually asked as a question (based on her tone, presumably).

As regards the point RoseM raises, it probably isn't speculating too far to say that Amanda's Italian and Filomena's English both seem to have been pretty bad. The communication difficulties are one thing I don't think Massei took enough account of.

 

[katy_did]

Perhaps PMF has a copy. Why don't you ask your masters?

To be fair Withnail, Machiavelli would not be posting here at all if his 'masters' were PMF.

 

[Withnail1969]

it probably isn't speculating too far to say that Amanda's Italian and Filomena's English both seem to have been pretty bad. The communication difficulties are one thing I don't think Massei took enough account of.

The same can be said of Rafaelle's English (and Italian apparently), and Amanda's Italian. In fact they had trouble understanding each other.

Making it even more bizarrely unlikely that they formulated some kind of sex-murder plot - how do you even do that when your vocabulary is at Dick and Jane level?

 

[Kaosium]

The same can be said of Rafaelle's English (and Italian apparently), and Amanda's Italian. In fact they had trouble understanding each other.

Making it even more bizarrely unlikely that they formulated some kind of sex-murder plot - how do you even do that when your vocabulary is at Dick and Jane level?

Does anyone know how good Rudy's English or Italian was? How good was Meredith's Italian? One theory I recall hearing (Rudy's own?) he was let in by Meredith and ended up in the bathroom when the 'killer' came in.

The three of these had to coordinate, in Italian I assume as that's the language they all had at least a part of, unless both Rudy and Raffaele spoke English better than Amanda did Italian.

This is an interesting point.

 

[katy_did]

The same can be said of Rafaelle's English (and Italian apparently), and Amanda's Italian. In fact they had trouble understanding each other.

Making it even more bizarrely unlikely that they formulated some kind of sex-murder plot - how do you even do that when your vocabulary is at Dick and Jane level?

Yes, agreed. It also makes it unlikely that the couple Monacchia heard arguing in Italian shortly before she heard a scream were Amanda and Raffaele (I bet it was the woman in the broken down car yelling "You told me you'd fixed it! I knew we shoulda taken it to the garage!").

It's amazing how much weight Massei gives to the various things Amanda is supposed to have said (in the phone calls to Filomena, outside the bedroom door, etc) given how much scope for miscommunication there was. As you say, it would also make it a bit difficult to co-ordinate some kind of fiendish murder plot (unless the plot of Dick and Jane style primers has really changed since I read them).

 

[Withnail1969]

Does anyone know how good Rudy's English or Italian was? How good was Meredith's Italian? One theory I recall hearing (Rudy's own?) he was let in by Meredith and ended up in the bathroom when the 'killer' came in.

The three of these had to coordinate, in Italian I assume as that's the language they all had at least a part of, unless both Rudy and Raffaele spoke English better than Amanda did Italian.

This is an interesting point.

I can tell you that Rafaelle's Calabrian dialect would be extremely difficult for most Italians to follow, let alone Amanda. Amanda's basic Italian wasn't fantastic to start with.

I assume Rudy's Italian would have been more or less local Perugian Italian since that was where he grew up.

Meredith I think would have had reasonable understanding of Northern Italian but not the dialect words.

 

[RoseMontague]

Ok, what exactly is your idea about his conversation? And exactly what thoughtful's translation?
You are addressing topics i'm not dealing with directly now, and don't know exactly what this translation was reporting.

Here is a portion I have saved:

FR: Then let's -- [at this point she switches to English. Cute accent -- but her English isn't really any better than Amanda's Italian! Literal transcription.] We can do in this way, if you want. After that I get in the agency office to talk about what we have to do...

AK: Yes?

FR: ...after I have to go to office to talk with my lawyer...

[A voice intervenes, perhaps the interpreter? LG stops the audio] Afterwards she had to go to her office to see her lawyer. [Background murmuring. Audio rewinds a bit and starts again, this time translated orally bit by bit by the interpreter]

FR: ...about the problem of the home because he says that we have a problem.

AK: Yes?

FR: And if...if the agency says there are some problems with the rest of the...rest of the...in legal ways [I think this is what she just tried to say but it's hard to understand. The interpreter simply says "One can't understand Romanelli's English very well" (!) At this point Filomena switches back to Italian.] We're okay because it's all in our favor.

I was hoping to get your opinion after listening to the audio of this. It does seem to indicate some communication problems. If I remember correctly Amanda is speaking Italian at some point and forgets the Italian word for phone so just says the English word instead. This is important in relation to the conversation they had about phone calls to Meredith, as well as the always/never closed door issue and other things that don't come to mind right at the present time.

 

[Machiavelli]

Perhaps PMF has a copy. Why don't you ask your masters?

I think it could be correct to say that I have been one of PMF sources, but I don't have masters.

 

[RoseMontague]

The same can be said of Rafaelle's English (and Italian apparently), and Amanda's Italian. In fact they had trouble understanding each other.

Making it even more bizarrely unlikely that they formulated some kind of sex-murder plot - how do you even do that when your vocabulary is at Dick and Jane level?

I think it would be more on the lines of Mary_H and platonov formulating a complicated plot together.

 

[LondonJohn]

Just for Fulcanelli:

Murders in supermarkets in UK:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article4124582.ece

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/west-ce...e-men-in-glasgow-gangland-supermarket-murder/

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/88707-murder-inquiry-launched-after-man-dies-in-supermarket/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ith-Ryan-Bravo-London-supermarket-murder.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ith-Ryan-Bravo-London-supermarket-murder.html

And I wonder what Lumumba REALLY thinks about his bar having been closed by the police for three months? Maybe he's come to an interesting compensation arrangement with them - after all, he's happy to say these days that the directly-quoted allegations made by him of police brutality and racist abuse during his arrest and incarceration in November 2007 were incorrect. Hmmmmmm.

 

[Withnail1969]

Just for Fulcanelli:

Murders in supermarkets in UK:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article4124582.ece

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/west-ce...e-men-in-glasgow-gangland-supermarket-murder/

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/88707-murder-inquiry-launched-after-man-dies-in-supermarket/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ith-Ryan-Bravo-London-supermarket-murder.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ith-Ryan-Bravo-London-supermarket-murder.html

And I wonder what Lumumba REALLY thinks about his bar having been closed by the police for three months? Maybe he's come to an interesting compensation arrangement with them - after all, he's happy to say these days that the directly-quoted allegations made by him of police brutality and racist abuse during his arrest and incarceration in November 2007 were incorrect. Hmmmmmm.

All of those supermarkets, if they were in Italy, would still be closed to the public as they are crime scenes.

I would hate to live somewhere like Naples, because i bet all the shops and bars in some areas are constantly closed for years on end, on account of them being crime scenes.

 

[treehorn]

The 'C' would have been automatic since it was the police officer not the court who decided that the violation was committed (see the statute if you are confused about this). In this case there was no 'court', no crime, and no conviction.

You just looked at the COURT record, but claim there was "no court."

What's the deal?

 

[treehorn]

The middle aged person on the train story is a misunderstanding that has been explained and debunked many times (see upthread "no strangers on a train" for example). No such person is on the list of intimate partners that Ms. Knox compiled when she was in fear of having contracted the HIV virus; ergo, no such intimate partner exists.

How on earth do you know the name of the 'stranger on the train'?

(A prerequisite to knowing whether he is on 'the list')

PS Are you saying Nadeau is wrong about Daniel paying Knox a visit in the middle of her 6 days with Sollecito?

If so, on what basis?