Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Supernaut]

post script
One last thing. I don't consider any diagnosis (of sociopathy or whatever) made long-distance to be worth anything. A long distance diagnosis made by someone who lacks training in the relevant discipline would not be worthless. Its value would lie in what it tells us about the person giving it.

 

[Withnail1969]

So you agree, that this was behaviour characteristic of a sociopath?

Wouldn't Amanda have pretended to be concerned if she really killed Meredith?

Real sociopaths know how to pretend when they need to.

 

[LondonJohn]

No. It was from the bra she was wearing when she was assaulted. The news report is in error (as many of them were).

I suspect that either the telegraph reporter, or an Italian journo, or a police press officer, couldn't believe that the police would have recovered Meredith's bra with a visibly missing rear clasp, then not bothered to retrieve and collect the clasp itself. Therefore, I suspect that one or all of these people must have come to the erroneous conclusion that the clasp MUST have come from a different bra, since the forensics team couldn't be that bad, could they?

 

[Withnail1969]

I suspect that either the telegraph reporter, or an Italian journo, or a police press officer, couldn't believe that the police would have recovered Meredith's bra with a visibly missing rear clasp, then not bothered to retrieve and collect the clasp itself. Therefore, I suspect that one or all of these people must have come to the erroneous conclusion that the clasp MUST have come from a different bra, since the forensics team couldn't be that bad, could they?

Hardly surprising they didn't find it given the pigsty they made of the room. Under the British forensic system we discussed yesterday, i am certain the clasp would have been found.

But a certain 'Fulcanelli' in another place appears to think differently. He believes that leaving all this stuff strewn around going mouldy in an unheated house counts as 'storing the evidence' in a sealed crimescene.

 

[LondonJohn]

Just what are you implying, another notch for the conspiracy theory? I believe Machiavelli explained this differently and in a way that at least seems plausible to rational people.

Er no, I'm implying that Rinaldi might very well have concurred originally with Ippolita's findings, but that the embarrassing revelation by Sollecito's family might have allowed Mignini and Rinaldi to claim that Rinaldi "knew all along" that Ippolita had made a stupid mistake over his interpretation of the shoe prints. That's nowhere near a conspiracy, but I understand how eager you are to introduce that word into the discussion as much as possible.

 

[Scorpion NITE]

I see, I just misunderstood you. Look, in my first post, I wrote three lines/rows in "quotation marks":
("AK didn`t hate MK, there were photos from both of them on AK`s laptop. Moreover AK ended an sms to MK with an "X", which means giving someone a kiss. So, in fact they were good friends. And AK is a totally normal college girl. Everyone reacts different to traumatic events; her behaviour was nothing out of the normal." ) and in the same post I referred to this passage as a four-liner (I`m sure, there wil be a superficial four liner response post), so I thought, that your sentence "As for four lines, I`m not sure they are warranted." was referring to my typo in my original post.
Great, that we could clarify this pedantic nonsense.

Yeah, ok.

I suspect that either the telegraph reporter, or an Italian journo, or a police press officer, couldn't believe that the police would have recovered Meredith's bra with a visibly missing rear clasp, then not bothered to retrieve and collect the clasp itself. Therefore, I suspect that one or all of these people must have come to the erroneous conclusion that the clasp MUST have come from a different bra, since the forensics team couldn't be that bad, could they?

I have never quite got my head round why they didn't collect the bra clasp the first time. WHY would you record it as they did on the video (it is clearly focused upon) but then just leave it lying there?

Then, miraculously, it becomes evidence the day after the prints are shown NOT to be Raffaele's! (I believe it was the day after, but stand to be corrected if not).

 

[LondonJohn]

Hardly surprising they didn't find it given the pigsty they made of the room. Under the British forensic system we discussed yesterday, i am certain the clasp would have been found.

But a certain 'Fulcanelli' in another place appears to think differently. He believes that leaving all this stuff strewn around going mouldy in an unheated house counts as 'storing the evidence' in a sealed crimescene.

Ah yes, that's yet another piece of laughable pulled-out-of-thin-air nonsense from Fulcanelli. What happens if someone gets shot dead in a supermarket or restaurant in Italy? Do the police keep the supermarket or restaurant shut for a year and a half, with bloody belongings in the fresh fruit aisle or next to the dessert trolley? No: the police process the crime scene fully and quickly, then it is returned to its owners to be cleaned and returned to its regular function.

Sadly, some people often don't seem to know what they are talking about, and tend to invent or elaborate in order to attempt to shore up their position.

 

[LondonJohn]

Yeah, ok.




I have never quite got my head round why they didn't collect the bra clasp the first time. WHY would you record it as they did on the video (it is clearly focused upon) but then just leave it lying there?

Then, miraculously, it becomes evidence the day after the prints are shown NOT to be Raffaele's! (I believe it was the day after, but stand to be corrected if not).

I'm going to take a guess:

Because they were inept and disorganised?

 

[Scorpion NITE]

I have never quite got my head round why they didn't collect the bra clasp the first time. WHY would you record it as they did on the video (it is clearly focused upon) but then just leave it lying there?

Then, miraculously, it becomes evidence the day after the prints are shown NOT to be Raffaele's! (I believe it was the day after, but stand to be corrected if not).

I'm going to take a guess:

Because they were inept and disorganised?

That certainly goes some way to explaining the first part, but I am more than a tad suspicious about the second part (the miraculous finding ).

 

[Withnail1969]

Ah yes, that's yet another piece of laughable pulled-out-of-thin-air nonsense from Fulcanelli. What happens if someone gets shot dead in a supermarket or restaurant in Italy? Do the police keep the supermarket or restaurant shut for a year and a half, with bloody belongings in the fresh fruit aisle or next to the dessert trolley? No: the police process the crime scene fully and quickly, then it is returned to its owners to be cleaned and returned to its regular function.

Sadly, some people often don't seem to know what they are talking about, and tend to invent or elaborate in order to attempt to shore up their position.

On rereading his comment, apparently the police in the UK only have a short time to do all this because they have no right to seal a crimescene for more than a day or two, and if they weren't finished in time the owner could hustle the murder squad off the premises and unseal them.

Where on Earth does he get this stuff?

 

[Machiavelli]

I don't want anyone, including yourself as well as those on the innocent side of things to take this the wrong way, but I have seen enough outlines from both sides now. Maybe you can all just take the outline of the bathmat print, color it in, and label it Rudy or Raffaele. Just seeing the wide variety of results here is answer enough for me and that answer is that the print is not conclusive for either one of them.

I don't want you to take it the wrong way, but I think there are people, you among them, who haven't seen enough.
Obviously, as long as somebody doesn't want to take a decision, anything will always be "not enough". But a good point is to express thoroghly what one thinks and why has come to that opinion. If the existence of a variety of conflicting results were a good reason to deduce that evidence is non conclusive, it won't be possible to convict anybody, never after listening to the defence arguments.
I take the occasion to recall here there is a reply I owe to you about the decisive topic of the Luminol prints.

 

[LondonJohn]

On rereading his comment, apparently the police in the UK only have a short time to do all this because they have no right to seal a crimescene for more than a day or two, and if they weren't finished in time the owner could hustle the murder squad off the premises and unseal them.

Where on Earth does he get this stuff?

Indeed - in complicated multiple murders, or terrorist safe houses (for example), the scene might take up to a couple of weeks to get processed, owing to the sheer scale of work to be done. What I can be pretty certain of is that the SOCOs wouldn't just stop in the middle, leave the scene "sealed" for weeks on end, then come back to finish the job. It's all done as quickly as possible after the discovery of the crime scene, then the scene is released. It takes as long as it takes, but no longer than that.

 

[Withnail1969]

I don't want you to take it the wrong way, but I think there are people, you among them, who haven't seen enough.

Actually I think a lot of people are becoming somewhat bored with these constant drawings of imaginary feet done in Microsoft Paint.

But they are probably too kind to say so.

 

[RoseMontague]

I don't want you to take it the wrong way, but I think there are people, you among them, who haven't seen enough.
Obviously, as long as somebody doesn't want to take a decision, anything will always be "not enough". But a good point is to express thoroghly what one thinks and why has come to that opinion. If the existence of a variety of conflicting results were a good reason to deduce that evidence is non conclusive, it won't be possible to convict anybody, never after listening to the defence arguments.
I take the occasion to recall here there is a reply I owe to you about the decisive topic of the Luminol prints.

While you are at it don't forget the 2nd half of the very first question I asked you. This was regarding thoughtful's translation of the conversation between Amanda and Filomena with the court translator's comments as well. Based on that, do you feel that Amanda and Filomena had trouble communicating with each other?

As to your comment regarding my not having seen enough; I take that as a fair comment and I consider myself out of line to you as well as the others that went to great effort on these footprint presentations. My apologies. All outlines accepted. Carry on....please.

 

[Machiavelli]

Actually I think a lot of people are becoming somewhat bored with these constant drawings of imaginary feet done in Microsoft Paint.

But they are probably too kind to say so.

Adobe Photoshop

 

[Justinian2]

I suspect that either the telegraph reporter, or an Italian journo, or a police press officer, couldn't believe that the police would have recovered Meredith's bra with a visibly missing rear clasp, then not bothered to retrieve and collect the clasp itself. Therefore, I suspect that one or all of these people must have come to the erroneous conclusion that the clasp MUST have come from a different bra, since the forensics team couldn't be that bad, could they?

Could the bra clasp have been cut off by the police, had DNA deposited on it and then brought back to the crime scene to be 'found'? The police have done similar things before.

Stupid question, I know, but the chain of evidence should be unbroken.

 

[RoseMontague]

Actually I think a lot of people are becoming somewhat bored with these constant drawings of imaginary feet done in Microsoft Paint.

But they are probably too kind to say so.

And I was not too kind when I said so. However, bored or not, his point that I have not seen enough is correct. I would love to see someone rotate Raffaele's hallux on it's axis as discussed in the court examination on these prints. I would also like to see an overlay of Amanda's print with the one on the bathmat, just to make sure I am not missing the obvious.

 

[Withnail1969]

Adobe Photoshop

So why not just fake it a bit and make it look like Raffaele's instead of Rudy's, instead of putting stuff out there that looks like Rudy and claiming it looks like Raffaele?

End of conversation, since I'm sick of this whole bathmat topic.

 

[Machiavelli]

While you are at it don't forget the 2nd half of the very first question I asked you. This was regarding thoughtful's translation of the conversation between Amanda and Filomena with the court translator's comments as well. Based on that, do you feel that Amanda and Filomena had trouble communicating with each other?

Ok, what exactly is your idea about his conversation? And exactly what thoughtful's translation?
You are addressing topics i'm not dealing with directly now, and don't know exactly what this translation was reporting.

 

[RoseMontague]

Ok, what exactly is your idea about his conversation? And exactly what thoughtful's translation?
You are addressing topics i'm not dealing with directly now, and don't know exactly what this translation was reporting.

This was in the Amanda's testimony section at PMF that thoughtful translated, I believe you guys had the audio at one time (I can't link there at the moment for some reason). It was a conversation played of an intercepted call between Amanda and Filomena regarding getting out of the rental contract on the flat. The court translator was having a hard time with Filomena's English as well as Amanda's Italian, as was thoughtful, if I am remembering correctly.