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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Charlie Wilkes said:
measurements taken from photos of stained fabric are subject to error. Therefore, Rinaldi is a buffoon of the first order, and Massei is a fool for taking him seriously. I could not agree more. Thank you for saying it so well.
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Exactly my point Charlie, so why do many of those who think AK and RS are innocent insist that the print is RG's? How are they any different than Rinaldi and Massei?
 
Alt+F4 said:
Please cite a link from a UK law enforcement agency that all forensic evidence is gathered from a murder scene within 48 hours and that the scene is not revisited again. Again, I know you are new to the JREF forums and don't post anywhere except but this sub-forum. This is a sub-forum of a skeptics website, not an Amanda Knox website.
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I never said the scene is not revisited. i said it is not revisited for forensic purposes, since the evidence has already been gathered. I am British, so I really can't be bothered to justify the methods of our police to you. Find your references yourself.
 
Alt+F4 said:
John, try reading what I typed not what you want to believe I typed.
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Oh right. My mistake. What did you actually mean when you wrote

"As a point of information, the conspiracy sub-forum is that away"?

Was it just a random piece of information, in the same way as you might have written "As a point of information, the capital of Romania is Bucharest"?
 
Alt+F4 said:
Crime scene tape means a location is "sealed"? Yikes, a 2-year old could get through crime scene tape. No, the apartment was not "sealed".
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Better tell that to the Perugia police then, because they seemed to be under the impression that the house was sealed as a crime scene at least up until mid-December 2007.
 
LondonJohn said:
The point is that the police should have collected all the evidence, photographed it, bagged it and removed it, within the first two or three days. Whether it took them 20 days or 47 days to get back into the house to collect what they'd forgotten is of marginal relevance. And we're not just talking about one piece of evidence here (which would be a very bad mistake in any case): we're talking about five or six very important pieces of evidence, including the clothing and handbag worn/used by the murder victim on the night of the murder.

And if the crime scene was allegedly sealed during all this period anyhow, who allowed Meredith's room to change so remarkably in appearance, with clothing and belongings piled up, and blood smears on the floor?
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There were a few items tested after the December 18 search which yielded results, a sock which was rolled up in the rug, the zippered jacket, the brown handbag (which I think was retrieved from the wardrobe) blood from the wall (I assume the handprint but am not sure) and the bra clasp.

On two items were the profile and/or haplotype of Rudy (handbag and zippered jacket), on one item the profile/haplotype of Raffaele (bra clasp).

All items included the profile of Meredith with the exception of the blood on the wall (no profile). The sock amazingly, only included the profile of Meredith though rolled up in the blue rug. I am not sure of its placement on November 2-3. That would be something to check.

There may have been more samples collected during the December 18 search from Meredith's room but I am not sure.

The above items yielded profiles despite the appearance of the room. Samples are taken from environments which are much less than sterile (I guess that would be true of all environments) and yet the technicians are able to get results from the samples.

I am interested in the closing off of a crime scene and keeping much of the evidence there and comparing with doing all evidence collection in a span of 2-3 days and complete cleaning of the scene immediately. Are there any papers which have researched this comparison?

As far as the appearance of Meredith's room, I would imagine some of the disarray happened after the forensic evidence was collected on November 2-3 and maybe again on December 18.
 
Alt+F4 said:
Exactly my point Charlie, so why do many of those who think AK and RS are innocent insist that the print is RG's? How are they any different than Rinaldi and Massei?
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I believe Rinaldi excluded the print from possibly being Guede's, so I am not sure what you are talking about. I would not exclude either of them, but my opinion between the choice of those two, it looks like Rudy's.
 
Withnail1969 said:
I never said the scene is not revisited. i said it is not revisited for forensic purposes
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Cite please?

I am British, so I really can't be bothered to justify the methods of our police to you.
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Since it's your nation's criminal justice system it should be easy for you to just provide a link to the procedures in question.

Find your references yourself.
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That's not how it works with skeptics. Defend what you post or retract it. Otherwise you just made it up.
 
Alt+F4 said:
Cite please?



Since it's your nation's criminal justice system it should be easy for you to just provide a link to the procedures in question.



That's not how it works with skeptics. Defend what you post or retract it. Otherwise you just made it up.
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find it yourself. I remember reading a detailed article not long ago which explained how the murder squad and forensics teams went about their business. i retract nothing.

Not only I, but London John also has a strong recollection of this being the UK police procedure. But I am not going to sit here Googling away just to satisfy your demands.
 
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Alt+F4 said:
Exactly my point Charlie, so why do many of those who think AK and RS are innocent insist that the print is RG's? How are they any different than Rinaldi and Massei?
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They don't insist this. You are badly misrepresenting people's opinions.

Nearly everyone I'm aware of (including myself) arguing in this area on JREF is of the opinion that the bath mat print can't be matched to anyone with any level of certainty whatsoever. Many of us have pointed out in passing that, if anything, the print tends to match Guede more than Sollecito.

But that doesn't in any way mean that we think the print should be positively linked to Guede. We merely believe that the print should not (and cannot) be positively linked to Sollecito, and likewise that it should not (and cannot) be positively excluded as Guede's.

Please go back and read what's been written here about the bath mat print before making such significant errors of representation.
 
Withnail1969 said:
find it yourself. I remember reading a detailed article not long ago which explained how the murder squad and forensics teams went about their business. i retract nothing.
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Ok, understood. You can't back up, with even one link, what you posted. You just made it.
 
LondonJohn said:
They don't insist this. You are badly misrepresenting people's opinions.

Nearly everyone I'm aware of (including myself) arguing in this area on JREF is of the opinion that the bath mat print can't be matched to anyone with any level of certainty whatsoever. Many of us have pointed out in passing that, if anything, the print tends to match Guede more than Sollecito.

But that doesn't in any way mean that we think the print should be positively linked to Guede. We merely believe that the print should not (and cannot) be positively linked to Sollecito, and likewise that it should not (and cannot) be positively excluded as Guede's.

Please go back and read what's been written here about the bath mat print before making such significant errors of representation.
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From Charlie's website:

There is absolutely no way the print belongs to Raffaele.
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Withnail1969 said:
I amended my post, please reread it. Why don't you do the research yourself on UK Police forensic procedures?
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Ok, let me give you an example of being a skeptic 101. I make the claim that Grover Cleveland was Jack the Ripper. I provide no evidence or proof that this is true. Then, when I am questioned on this assertion I'm told to do the research myself. Do you see how that claim hold no water?
 
Alt+F4 said:
From Charlie's website:

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This is one of the more spectacular straw man arguments I've seen for a while.

Your initial (erroneous) position was this:

"why do many of those who think AK and RS are innocent insist that the print is RG's?"

I tell you that this is a misrepresentation, and your "rebuttal" offering is a quote from Charlie Wilkes in which he states:

"There is absolutely no way the print belongs to Raffaele."

I'm almost embarrassed to have to point out that not only is Charlie not asserting that the print is that of Guede, but he's also refuting the positive identification of the print as that of Sollecito.
 
Nov 14th photo of cottage door.

el buscador said:
Thanks, Withnail1969, I was about to give the same answer. There is a photo around somewhere that actually shows the front door of the house open with the crime scene tape across the door. The date on the photo is sometime in late November 2007, I believe. It seems someone could have breached the crime scene or it could have been that pesky lock on the front door if the police forgot to use the keys. I'll see if I can find that photo.
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Here it is:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_BZD30a25FmE/Rz11xR3I6kI/AAAAAAAACJY/qgTeHey702M/s1600-h/Perugia+crime+scene+-+front+door.jpg


http://lastrada.blogspot.com/2007/11/perugia-crime-scene-14-november-2007-as.html


IIP Forum discussion:

http://www.injusticeinperugiaforum.org/nov-14-crime-scene-photo-link-posted-in-general-blog-t170.html#p1644
 
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Withnail1969 said:
Not only I, but London John also has a strong recollection of this being the UK police procedure. But I am not going to sit here Googling away just to satisfy your demands.
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I also have a strong recollection of a winged being leaving a dollar under my pillow in exchange for a tooth I left there.
 
Withnail1969 said:
That's exactly right, a crime scene involving a murder is not revisited in the UK for forensic purposes after 48 hours, because by that time all the evidence has been gathered and the crime scene has been cleaned by professional cleaners.

Sorry, I didn't think you were stupid enough to think I meant that everyone just moved back into the murder scene as though nothing had happened. Oh well, never underestimate the stupidity of PMFers I guess.
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Withnail, I am on your side, but your second paragraph above is not okay in this forum. It's an ad hominem attack, very negative, and it's not accurate, anyway, because Alt+4 is not a died-in-the-wool PMFer.

Also, Alt+4 is well within her rights to ask for citations. If you don't want to provide them, that's okay, too, but it doesn't look good for you to suggest she search for support for your claims.
 
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