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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Thanks for the comment Machiavelli,
Actually Rinaldi's pdf gives the Sollecito's width as 99 mm, not 95 mm as you claim. The blue arrow on the bathmat is also 99 mm long. In fact I used the arrows for bringing the pictures to scale. As they are presented in Rinaldi's pdf there's around 1% difference when compared pixel to pixel ( Both reference prints are a tiny bit bigger then the bathmat ).

Of course my overlays are scaled assuming that Rinaldi's measurements are correct.

However your Sollecito's reference measurement is 102-103 mm.
That would probably work anyway for a good overlay of the contour.
However the contour of the print should be visible, so it should be overlayed to the print for a better assessment.

I think Rinaldi's measurements on the prints are correct, but I consider the photo is definitley a less precise source of information on what regards proportion and measurement, also because of the intrinsic optical properties of photography, which always produces a slight deformation, albeit not perceived by the eye, unless there are some very sophisticate and very professional conter-measurements, special equipments, etc. Only a centimetred grid over the stain would produce a good retference.
The properties of deformation / shrinking of the bathmat as a soft material are also potentially influent on proportions and scale error.
The assessment of the correct scale on two images like thesre is not a banal operation. In fact it has to follow a morphologic assessment: to understand what are the points of reference and the degree of rotation of one in respect to the other, before confronting the scales.
 
I am impressed by the level of knowledge about the case that has been demonstrated in this forum on both sides. People seem pretty entrenched on their positions here and I was wondering if anyone has changed their minds about as to guilt or innocence. And if they did switch, what was the item that turned the tide.
Personally, I was about 90/10 for guilt in the early days ( Jan ’08). Most of my input was from TJMK and PMF. Later in 2008, I started reading Perugia Shock, where I learned about the false HIV results and 3 fried computers. I started questioning the prosecution’s tactics, evidence and logic. By the end of 2008, I was about 50/50 on guilt. I actual trial was an eye-opener and hearing the “other side” has pushed me to 90/10 on innocence.
I would like to if you changed you position, what was the deciding factor. Or possibly, what would it take to change your mind. For me it was the tactics, evidence and logic of the prosecution.

I didn't pay much attention to this case right through until March 2010, when I happened to buy a book about it - "Darkness Descending". Naturally, my starting position was that Knox and Sollecito were both guilty (in a legal sense) and culpable (in a factual sense), since most trials in a modern judicial system end with a correct result.

When I read "Darkeness Descending", I developed further belief in their guilt, since much of what I read in that book was very incriminatory. However, some things concerned me - chiefly, the interrogations of the 5/6 November. This prompted me to join PMF*, where I argued that Knox and Sollecito could be guilty but still have been coerced into false confessions/accusations. I was surprised and alarmed at the way I was shouted down for even suggesting such a thing, and I decided that things might not be quite as they appeared. I read more about the case, and learnt the truth about many of the things that had previously convinced me of Knox and Sollecito's guilt - chiefly the kitchen knife, the correct sequence of phone calls on the morning of the 2nd November, the activity on Meredith's phone on the evening of the 1st, and the bra clasp DNA evidence against Sollecito.

When I added into this a review of contemporaneous press accounts of the trial, I started to change my belief towards one of wrongful conviction. I wasn't sure whether Knox and Sollecito were or were not actually involved in the murder, but I became steadily concerned that they were not properly convicted judged by the evidence placed before the court.

My subsequent learnings (including knowledge of the autopsy findings and their relation to Time of Death, and further understanding of the way evidence was collected and analysed/interpreted), has led me to lean towards a current belief that Knox and Sollecito may very well have had nothing whatsoever to do with the murder of Meredith Kercher. But I remain open-minded on this.

* As many people like to point out, I described myself on PMF back in April as a "firm guilter". I make no apologies for having said that - it's what I believed at the time. But it was very early in my knowledge path regarding this case, and I was also trying to fight against instinctive attack. It didn't, however, take me long to learn enough about the case to change my view. That's what can happen when you learn more about a subject. I am guessing that Copernicus, in his youth, would have strongly asserted that the Sun rotated around the Earth. Then he learned better....
 
I don't know how it is in the UK, but in the US, police routinely bungle investigations and compromise evidence. Most cops on the beat are high school graduates with little specialized training, and they are the first responders at a crime scene. But this case in Perugia nevertheless represents an extreme of bad procedure. I have never seen photos of a crime scene as thoroughly trashed as this one was.
A partial list of what was taken from the house in March is on Frank's site, Perugia Shock.

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2008/03/we-were-joking.html

He lists among other things, Amanda's and Merediths guitars, 2 Harry Potter Books, a little pot of vaseline, a sweatshirt (possibly Amanda's) and Meredith's cloth purse which was blood stained. I think this was the purse she was carrying that night.

But I also read on Frank's blog that the lab refused to test the items from March but I can't find where I read that.
 
I was impressed with the forensics lady who came to investigate my burglary. She did a really good job and got some very clear shoe prints which were previously invisible. I hear the UK murder cops and forensics are very good, and I believe it based on my experience.

My one experience with them (assault on a housemate some years ago) was fairly positive. One thing I'm pretty sure of is that SOCOs (Scene Of Crime Officers, as they're known here) are rigorously trained to follow tightly-defined procedures. I'm fairly certain that with major robbery and murder cases, SOCOs follow a specific routine aimed at securing the scene, preserving the scene, documenting (photo and film) everything of any note at the scene, then taking samples and bagging evidence in a swift and orderly manner. All relevant evidence is then removed for analysis, then the scene is re-examined to check that nothing has been missed. Only then is the crime scene released for cleaning etc.
 
My one experience with them (assault on a housemate some years ago) was fairly positive. One thing I'm pretty sure of is that SOCOs (Scene Of Crime Officers, as they're known here) are rigorously trained to follow tightly-defined procedures. I'm fairly certain that with major robbery and murder cases, SOCOs follow a specific routine aimed at securing the scene, preserving the scene, documenting (photo and film) everything of any note at the scene, then taking samples and bagging evidence in a swift and orderly manner. All relevant evidence is then removed for analysis, then the scene is re-examined to check that nothing has been missed. Only then is the crime scene released for cleaning etc.

Exactly. This is what I was saying earlier. It's a rigorous scientific system. Do you ever hear of UK police revisiting a crime scene 48 days later, to great public fanfare, to find some piece of evidence, such as a bra clasp, which they missed first time round?
 
- Raffalelle Sollicito is evidently slightly "hammer toed", meaning his toes are somewhat 'clenched' so that only the pad and NOT the first joint of his big toe contacts the ground (it also brings the tips of all his toes close to his fore-foot). This is in obvious contrast to Guede's, whose toe is straight and BOTH joints are firmly planted.

- Guede's reference print shows a distinct cleft between the ball of his big-toe and the rest of his forefoot which is also apparent on the bathmat print. Raffelle does not (outlined).

The footprints you describe were made with ink on to a firm piece of paper. How can you possibly compare them with a print made on a cloth/rubber bathmat with (what I'm told) is a blood/water combination footprint?
 
Exactly. This is what I was saying earlier. It's a rigorous scientific system. Do you ever hear of UK police revisiting a crime scene 48 days later, to great public fanfare, to find some piece of evidence, such as a bra clasp, which they missed first time round?

And not only that, but revisiting a crime scene which has been altered massively since its video/photograph documentation during the prior search period. It would be bad enough if the crime scene looked, to all intents, exactly the same as it had done 47 days earlier. But their pretence that the undignified piles of clothes, with blood smears and important evidence moving all over the room, constituted a valid arena for accurate forensic collection and analysis, is offensively laughable.
 
Exactly. This is what I was saying earlier. It's a rigorous scientific system. Do you ever hear of UK police revisiting a crime scene 48 days later, to great public fanfare, to find some piece of evidence, such as a bra clasp, which they missed first time round?

It's my understanding that the police did not return to the apartment until then because the defense did not agree to it.
 
The footprints you describe were made with ink on to a firm piece of paper. How can you possibly compare them with a print made on a cloth/rubber bathmat with (what I'm told) is a blood/water combination footprint?

Uhhhh exactly the point. Maybe you'd now like to explain how the prosecution's "expert" convinced the court that the bath mat print matched Sollecito's reference print, and specifically didn't match Guede's?
 
Exactly. This is what I was saying earlier. It's a rigorous scientific system. Do you ever hear of UK police revisiting a crime scene 48 days later, to great public fanfare, to find some piece of evidence, such as a bra clasp, which they missed first time round?


When the police arrested Raffaele, they had no evidence against him, but they hoped his flick knife was the murder weapon and the bloody shoe prints were his. The knife tested negative for DNA right away. Only after determining the shoe prints were Rudy's did the investigators return to the crime scene for the serendipitous discovery of the bra clasp.

I cannot imagine any jury in an advanced nation that would not laugh this obvious contrivance out of court.
 
It's my understanding that the police did not return to the apartment until then because the defense did not agree to it.

The point is that the police should have collected all the evidence, photographed it, bagged it and removed it, within the first two or three days. Whether it took them 20 days or 47 days to get back into the house to collect what they'd forgotten is of marginal relevance. And we're not just talking about one piece of evidence here (which would be a very bad mistake in any case): we're talking about five or six very important pieces of evidence, including the clothing and handbag worn/used by the murder victim on the night of the murder.

And if the crime scene was allegedly sealed during all this period anyhow, who allowed Meredith's room to change so remarkably in appearance, with clothing and belongings piled up, and blood smears on the floor?
 
It's my understanding that the police did not return to the apartment until then because the defense did not agree to it.

I am sorry but I do not understand what you are talking about. The entire crime scene should have been done, dusted, tagged, bagged, filmed, Luminoled, whatever, in 48 hours as per UK (i.e. professional) police standards.

So by 03/11/07 the cleaners would have been in and the cottage would have been back to normal. By 3rd November there was no 'defence' as yet. What are you even talking about?
 
Uhhhh exactly the point. Maybe you'd now like to explain how the prosecution's "expert" convinced the court that the bath mat print matched Sollecito's reference print, and specifically didn't match Guede's?

Frank had a post about the prosecution expert's testimony and seemed to say that they ignored the fact that Raffaele's hallux would have had to rotate on it's axis for that to be his print. If someone could explain what they are talking about, I would appreciate it.
 
It's my understanding that the police did not return to the apartment until then because the defense did not agree to it.
But the apartment was sealed by the police, correct? So, would it have mattered if they had returned days or even weeks earlier? The scene would have looked the same.
 
Clothes tested from Meredith's room



Charlie,

There is only one purse listed on the pdf.
Rep 166 / Beige Purse.

Do you know which purse this is? The brown leather purse on the bed or the beige cloth tote bag? I know they tested the leather purse. I wouldn't call it beige though.

Does this mean they never tested the cloth tote?


Not included on the list are the long sleeve t-shirt and pumas. The Pumas are seen in the shoe pile. I wonder if the long sleeve T-shirt is on the bed clothes pile.

It would be interesting to make a list of what was taken and tested in what order. Nov, Dec 18, Mar 14
 
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It's my understanding that the police did not return to the apartment until then because the defense did not agree to it.


This argument would be valid only if the police had not done anything unless the defense agreed to it.
 
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