CME's, active regions and high energy flares

What is your evidence for a difference in dark/bright filament eruption distribution

Well, that is PART of their value, sure. The other part of the equation is that the "dark" filaments are the ones that "erupt" anywhere from the surface, whereas the "bright" filaments tend to be concentrated around "active regions" and only "circuit reconnection" causes them to blow.


Lots of things that are quoted and so are your own personal words:
  • What does "erupt" mean?
  • What does "active regions" mean?
  • What does "circuit reconnection" mean?
    I hope this is not the same thing that discussed in the Plasma Cosmology - Woo or not thread.
Citation? Numeric analysis? Is this just a gut feeling? Or is this wishful thinking?

But there is a serious question:
Michael Mozina
First asked 2 Oct 2010


You seem to be asserting that
  • filament eruptions for dark filaments happen anywhere on the solar disk.
  • filament eruptions for bright filaments tend to happen around active regions.
What is your evidence for a difference in dark/bright filament eruption spacial distribution.

If I can't watch it real time as a 'bright' filament, can you really blame me for calling it a "dark filament" to at least note it's visual quality which makes it unique?
The definition of a dark filament is that it appears dark in some wavelengths against the body of the Sun. So you are using the term in the correct way (no need for quotes :)!).

Thats funny - I see plenty of bright filaments in SDO images. But that is the danger of "I see bunnies in the clouds": someone else may be doing "I see fairies in the clouds" :D.
 
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No, I *CLAIMED* time and time again that dark filament "ERUPTIONS* cause CME's [...]


Actually you claimed that dark filaments cause CMEs, so your denial of that fact is not true. You recall I've already supported that by quoting you several times in Post #295. You may have acknowledged that your claim about dark filaments causing CMEs was wrong, and now be claiming that the dark filament eruptions cause CMEs. You absolutely were not claiming that before.

But even your current claim is wholly unsupported. One widely accepted view among the legitimate scientists and educators who work in fields related to solar physics is that CMEs are caused by magnetic reconnection. A pretty good candidate for the cause of filament eruptions is magnetic fields around filaments becoming unstable. And other than some guesses derived from your unqualified interpretation of some images, you haven't offered any alternative explanations for any of it.

[...] and I'm using that knowledge to "predict" two flares today. One of those predictions has already panned out. I'm still waiting to see when the second mass flow becomes visible.


And you still haven't defined what you mean by "predict". So your comment above might as well be gibberish, a string of words that look like English but have no sensible meaning as long as you refuse to let us know what the words mean when you use them. Your comment above seems to mean you've made a guess and you're waiting to see if your guess is correct.

Yes, and I have explained it to you publicly too, satellite images and everything. I've shown you the images I've used, the things I'm looking for, I've made actual predictions, etc. You've done nothing but complain.


You have not described the method you claim to use, certainly not scientifically, quantitatively, and objectively. So that is also not a true statement. And I have done very much other than complain, so that response is untrue, too. I've pointed out your continued failure to support your claims, as well as showing where you've attempted to construct your arguments from logical fallacies.

I have never guessed, and I didn't guess at either flare today. The first one is visible already. The second one will become visible shortly. You can't "debunk" something that works GM. All you're doing it burying yourself in a hole. That first predicted flare is already visible in COR now. The second one will show up, I promise you. It's not a guess. It's never been a guess. I"ve even shown you the images I've used, and I've even shown you (well RC showed you) the statistical correlation to the filament eruptions and flares is 95 percent with very little more than simple categorization processes. There's no 'guess'.


Since the method you've described for making your "prediction" is looking at pictures of solar activity and "predicting" that it will continue, your method can be described, by any reasonable definition of the word, as a guess. You could correct that situation by describing your method quantitatively, scientifically, and objectively. Show the math. Explain the data quantitatively. Make your method clear and understandable so that other people can apply it, obtain the same results that you do, and reach the same conclusions that you've reached. Until you can do that, you do not have a method and your "predictions" can be dismissed as guesses.

You've been challenged to show you superior understanding of solar physics. Will you rise to that challenge GM?


Science isn't a contest. You've made several claims, and the burden of proof is on you to support them. That is your responsibility. I learned that in about fifth grade when I was around eleven years old. I obviously have the qualifications necessary to know that. Your regular attempts to shift the burden of proof are strong evidence that you do not possess those qualifications. Consequently my qualifications to understand that elementary aspect of science are arguably superior.

But the fact is, almost everything you've claimed about solar physics has been shown to be wrong, so I could know absolutely nothing about it and still have arguably superior qualifications. But truth be told, my qualifications are not relevant to your claims. You're the one making the claims here, and your complete failure to support them has not escaped anyone's notice.

Now perhaps you'd like to define the term "predicting" as you're using it, and follow that by describing that method you claim to have for "predicting" CMEs, scientifically, quantitatively, and objectively, as you've been asked to do for almost two weeks.
 
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FYI, I predict that there will be some kind of activity (flares/CME) from active region 11113 in the next 48 hours.
I will "get" *EVERY* flare/CME that occurs in that active region in that 48 hour window.
Got in before you MM :D!
One advantage of living in a different time zone than you.

http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/today.html#xray

Time is up. I'll have to look to be sure, but I'm pretty certain even the two little "B" class flares had nothing to do with "your" active region, but rather the active regions I've had my eye on. Compared to the 1M class and 4 C class flares in my 48 hour window, that was pretty uneventful. It's not so easy "predicting" EM flares now is it? :)
 
http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/today.html#xray

Time is up. I'll have to look to be sure, but I'm pretty certain even the two little "B" class flares had nothing to do with "your" active region, but rather the active regions I've had my eye on. Compared to the 1M class and 4 C class flares in my 48 hour window, that was pretty uneventful. It's not so easy "predicting" EM flares now is it? :)


No more difficult than looking at a picture of some solar activity and guessing that it will continue, eh?

You forgot this one... or ignored...

EM flare prediction is *MUCH* more complicated to be honest, but I'd say I'm getting pretty good at it now. Any real "scientist" would have to sit up and take notice that I PREDICTED (real prediction) that large flare within an hour window, and with plenty of time for astronauts on the ISS to seek shelter *BEFORE* the flare even occurred. If that's not enough to make you sit up and take notice, what is?


Oh, you did contact those folks over at NASA about this, didn't you? And the real scientists working on the SDO project, you aren't leaving them out of the loop, are you? After all, you said yourself, any real scientist would have to sit up and take notice. Or does the word "scientist", in quote marks, mean something other than the commonly accepted use of the term? Or do you think maybe real scientists don't take much interest in science by looking at pictures and guessing?

:dl:
 
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No more difficult than looking at a picture of some solar activity and guessing that it will continue, eh?

Huh? RC's active region was "active" (at least "bright"), but that alone can't be used as a valid predictor of "big" (M or X class) flares, or even medium sized C class flares, otherwise RC's "guess" would have been sufficient.

To his credit at least, he didn't just cower in the corner hurling insults all day, he made a valid "prediction" that just didn't happen to pan out. His "methods" evidently require refinement. At least he's putting his ideas to the test, and not playing it safe, unlike some folks I know. ;)
 
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You have not described the method you claim to use, certainly not scientifically, quantitatively, and objectively.

That is simply a false statement. I have explained my methods very clearly to you. If there ever actually *WAS* any confusion caused by sloppy use of terms, it was cleared up long ago. You're just arguing now for arguments sake.

I think the part you find objectionable is the fact that I can do something you cannot do, and I can do it real time. That is because I am not ignorant of the value of those 'pretty pictures' you place no value upon, and I understand the importance of careful observation when 'math alone" cannot and does not suffice.

You've been "challenged" GM. Will you or will you not step up to the plate and at least demonstrate that you have the ability to do what I have already done? If not, what does that say about you and your understanding of solar physics? Aren't you competitive in real time with some hack "amateur" without the math skills to balance his own checkbook?

Talk is cheap. D'rok and RC have no both seen that "guessing" is pointless. Maybe you'd like to try your hand now?
 
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Huh? RC's active region was "active" (at least "bright"), but that alone can't be used as a valid predictor of "big" (M or X class) flares, or even medium sized C class flares, otherwise RC's "guess" would have been sufficient.


Who cares? Certainly not anyone at NASA or the good people who work on the SDO program. What does your guessing game have to do with real science? Who thinks anything you're saying is important?

To his credit at least, he didn't just cower in the corner hurling insults all day, he made a valid "prediction" that just didn't happen to pan out. His "methods" evidently require refinement. At least he's putting his ideas to the test, and not playing it safe, unlike some folks I know. ;)


Your method is looking at a picture and guessing that the activity you see will continue. You've never described it another way. I predicted rain in Tupelo, Mississippi, using the same method you've described. And so we continue with, so what? Big deal.

What do you expect to accomplish here? You certainly haven't convinced anyone in this discussion that you are able to do anything special, unique, or even interesting. Clearly the folks involved in real solar science couldn't care less about anything you've claimed. Do you have some kind of goal or objective in all this?
 
What do you expect to accomplish here? You certainly haven't convinced anyone in this discussion that you are able to do anything special, unique, or even interesting. Clearly the folks involved in real solar science couldn't care less about anything you've claimed. Do you have some kind of goal or objective in all this?

My "goal" is to demonstrate (over time) that I am able to do something "special and unique" in terms of "predicting" both types of CME's and doing it in real time, down to the time and location on the sun where the eruptions occur. IMO, sooner or later folks in this thread will understand the observational methods that I'm using, the satellite images I'm using, and they'll be able to do it for themselves if they are so inclined.

If you personally aren't so inclined, do something else. If you think you can do it better, show us. Do something scientifically useful instead of just "arguing". If you're so much more capable of predicting flares and CME's, show us in real time, as I have shown you my methods in real time and how they work in real time.
 
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His "methods" evidently require refinement.


I do not have a method - I have your method of guessing that
  • an active region will be active
  • an even more active region will be even more active
  • an extremely active region will be extremely active.
I supplement your method by looking at the SolarMonitor site to get an indication of the most active region on this side of the Sun.

So lets use your method again and guess: Active region 11113 will produce some kind of flare in the next 48 hours.
 
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D'rok and RC have no both seen that "guessing" is pointless.
Quite right. You have clearly demonstrated and embodied that lesson over and over again.

I'll stick with listening to what scientists say. Unfortunately, you have not managed to troll tim or sol or the others into responding to this thread (no offence GeeMack and everyone else!), so lurking is providing diminishing returns.
 
That is simply a false statement. I have explained my methods very clearly to you.
That is simply a false statement.
You have never explained your methods in detail enough so that they can be replicated by other people. That is what a scientific prediction is. That is what scientists do.
So far all we has seen is the trivial prediction that active regions that are active produce activity :jaw-dropp!
If that is your method then this thread is rather silly.
If that if not your method then you need to tell us how you get your numbers.

Your "method" is you have decided that you are the only person in the universe who can look at images of the Sun and determine whether there will be activity from active regions. The problem is that this depends entirely on your ability to interpret the images. An astronomer would use a quantitative measure to determine the state of activity of the active regions.
I suspect that in this case your interpretations may be correct since the state of activity of active regions should be obvious visually. But then we are back to the trivial nature of your predictions.

On the other hand we do know that you are rather bad at interpreting solar images.

Running difference images
For the past 5 years or so you have continued the persistent misinterpretation of running difference movies.
From your web site:
These images were created by NASA at the frequency of various iron ions, using software that essentially compares sequential snapshots, subtracting one set of images from the other, and thereby isolating only the more consistent and "stronger" features from each image.
This is wrong. Running difference moves isolate only the more inconsistant features from each image. They display the differences between the images. This has been explained to you many, many times.
Your analysis of this TRACE movie
This is a snapshot of Active Region 9143 observed with TRACE in the 171Å passband, showing bright material around 1 million degrees. This image, taken at 17:07UT on August 28, 2000, shows the corona during a C3.3 flare, associated with a mass ejection (towards the upper left of the image).
is especially bad as you then use that misinterpretation as revealing "persisted rigid surface features" on a physically impossible iron crust of the Sun that you place 1000's of km below the photosphere.


A couple of the posts that I have written on this subject
SOHO Doppler images
These images records the motions of plasma in the photosphere away from (lighter areas) and toward us (darker areas).
Once again you misinterpret features of the images as solid features (cliffs) on your web site. You make this worse by consulting an expert, Dr. Alexander G. Kosovichev, and ignoring him:
The consistent structures in the movie are caused by stationary flows in magnetic structures, sunspots and active regions.
We know this from the simultaneous measurements of solar magnetic field, made by SOHO. These are not solid structures which would not have mass flows that we see.
But at least your are honest enough to include Dr. Kosovichev's rely on your web page.

SDO image "green line" misinterpretation
This is a case where you got all excited by a "green line" in a SDO first light publicity image because you thought that it showed light being emitted from below the photosphere.


The problems were
  • This was a composite image created from first light images.
  • There are other images without the "green line"
  • And the important point: the image was a publicity image.
So you mistook a publicily image as a real scientific image (see Math Bunnies & Image Bunnies for the fallacy in looking at PR images). And what happened when someone did what you did not and contaced NASA:
The SDO image"green line" is a processing artifact as confirmed by the NASA team.

So the people who actually produced the image say that it is a processing artifact. An honest person would then just say - "whoops, my bad". They would at least edit their web page announcing their mistake in misusing a publicity image to stop embarrassing themselves :D.
 
I do not have a method - I have your method of guessing that

[*]an active region will be active

Um, my active region was in fact "active" during the entire period I selected. Yours was a complete dud the entire time. :) I didn't select any active regions to "blow" in that 48 hour window of time, you did.

an even more active region will be even more active

So why did you pick the least likely of the three active regions to do something?

an extremely active region will be extremely active.

FYI, that logic did apply to *MY* active region *AFTER* the M class flare I "predicted" in advance.

I supplement your method by looking at the SolarMonitor site to get an indication of the most active region on this side of the Sun.

You're using the wrong tool. :)

So lets use your method again and guess: Active region 11113 will produce some kind of flare in the next 48 hours.


Um, no, that was *YOUR* prediction. I told you that you could keep it, and that I would be surprised if it produced even one C class flare in that time. It did not. In fact neither of the three active regions produced anything substantial which is why *I* did not pick any of them. :)
 
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That is simply a false statement.
You have never explained your methods in detail enough so that they can be replicated by other people. That is what a scientific prediction is. That is what scientists do.

Exactly which part of "Dark filament eruptions cause CME's and flares", do you not understand? Do you understand how to spot the dark filaments in advance. prior to their eruption? I did show you exactly which images *I* use, but there are other methods to detect them which you welcome to use.

What exactly do you not understand about spotting dark filament eruptions?
 
Your "method" is you have decided that you are the only person in the universe who can look at images of the Sun and determine whether there will be activity from active regions.

How exactly did you decide that I decided that I was the only person in the world who could do this? I simply said that *I* could do so, not that nobody else on planet Earth could do it. In fact if I believed that nobody else could do it, what would be the point of discussing it in the first place?

The problem is that this depends entirely on your ability to interpret the images.

That part is true. Evidently my INTERPRETATION of active region stability s quite different from yours based upon your previous statements about them all looking "unstable".

An astronomer would use a quantitative measure to determine the state of activity of the active regions.

So how might you do that? FYI, there is an effective way to do that with SDO IMO.

I suspect that in this case your interpretations may be correct since the state of activity of active regions should be obvious visually. But then we are back to the trivial nature of your predictions.

They are visually obvious at specific wavelengths that I am interested in, but they would be QUANTITATIVELY different as well. It's not just that they are visually unique, they are mathematically unique as well.

My "trivial" predictions have thus far been far more accurate than yours. :) Why is that? ;)
 
They are visually obvious at specific wavelengths that I am interested in, but they would be QUANTITATIVELY different as well. It's not just that they are visually unique, they are mathematically unique as well.


Support your claim. Quantitatively describe the difference and show the supporting math.

:dl:
 

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