Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Katody Matrass]

Try it with Rudy's would be my suggestion.

Here's one attempt, a bit similar to that on the friendsofamanda.org site as it tries to trace the instep:

 

[christianahannah]

I'm trying to evaluate your work on PMF but it's not easy because you have used at least three different scales and the contour of the traced outline is subtly different in each image.

Charlie, in part of the court's opinion they state:

Page 355:

Finally, there is a piece of data which the Court has uncontrovertibly adopted: the same images of the bathmat, shown in deepened colours by the lighting equipment of the Crimescope, do actually increase the impression of solidity of the size of the big toe (and also of the metatarsus), and augment the perception of the unity with the rest of the small mark whose detachment was suggested.

Do you have access to either Vinci's report or to the Crimescope photos that the court is speaking of?

 

[nitram]

Removed egregious breaches of Rules 12, 10, and 0.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LashL

 

[katy_did]

OK,
I am open to suggestions. Either nobody is interested in Sarah Scazzi case or maybe I need to start a new thread if there is some interest. The comparisons between Amanda Knox and Sabrina Misseri are already starting. My concern is that Sabrina may be getting similar treatment from the authorities as Amanda received and that is the comparison I find frightening, not the ones comparing Amanda and Sarah, assuming guilt on both of their parts.

http://translate.google.com/transla...10/24/AMthBLBE-sabrina_piangendo_teneva.shtml

Open to suggestions, including not interested, don't post on this case.

LOL, I was just about to reply to your earlier post, Rose. I was going to say: I've read very few articles about the case, and have no opinion at all on her guilt/innocence, but from the little I've seen of the newspaper reports there seems to be a strong (and worrying) similarity with the early reporting on the Kercher case. Some of the comments in other places - all pretty much presuming her guilt - have also been pretty disturbing. No idea whether she's guilty or innocent, but she deserves a fair trial either way.

I wasn't really following the Knox case in the early days, except for reading (and believing) the occasional newspaper article on it. It's fascinating and horrifying to see the same thing playing out in real time, both the reporting of the murder and people's responses to it.

ETA: When I talk about the media coverage of the case, I suppose I'm also conflating the authorities' handling of the case and the leaking of various details to the press. I don't just mean the reporting of it in the papers, but the handling of the case overall.

Though personally I do find the comments about the case worrying as well - there are already Facebook hate groups set up...

 

[Katody Matrass]

And here's my idea - disregarding the less pronounced and incomplete parts of the stain and matching the most articulated i.e. the big toe, the ball of the foot and it's front left edge, that is printed on a flat part of the cloth.



My conclusion is that the print is incomplete and can only barely be used to exclude someone. Rudy can't be excluded but I guess if I tried to fit my own foot, it will match as well.

As for the confirmation bias, while removing the hand-drawing from the methodology helps, still there's huge element of subjectivity in positioning the print and interpreting the results.

One interesting fact I noticed in Yummi's drawing - Rinaldi's measurement of the toe falls outside of the stain outline.

No more about it, I promise, unless someone asks a question

 

[RoseMontague]

LOL, I was just about to reply to your earlier post, Rose. I was going to say: I've read very few articles about the case, and have no opinion at all on her guilt/innocence, but from the little I've seen of the newspaper reports there seems to be a strong (and worrying) similarity with the early reporting on the Kercher case. Some of the comments in other places - all pretty much presuming her guilt - have also been pretty disturbing. No idea whether she's guilty or innocent, but she deserves a fair trial either way.

I wasn't really following the Knox case in the early days, except for reading (and believing) the occasional newspaper article on it. It's fascinating and horrifying to see the same thing playing out in real time, both the reporting of the murder and people's responses to it.

ETA: When I talk about the media coverage of the case, I suppose I'm also conflating the authorities' handling of the case and the leaking of various details to the press. I don't just mean the reporting of it in the papers, but the handling of the case overall.

Though personally I do find the comments about the case worrying as well - there are already Facebook hate groups set up...

Thanks katy_did, I am glad you see the same possible issues that I do. I will continue to monitor and post an occasional update.

 

[RoseMontague]

And here's my idea - disregarding the less pronounced and incomplete parts of the stain and matching the most articulated i.e. the big toe, the ball of the foot and it's front left edge, that is printed on a flat part of the cloth.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_427054cc48281e7980.jpg[/qimg]

My conclusion is that the print is incomplete and can only barely be used to exclude someone. Rudy can't be excluded but I guess if I tried to fit my own foot, it will match as well.

As for the confirmation bias, while removing the hand-drawing from the methodology helps, still there's huge element of subjectivity in positioning the print and interpreting the results.

One interesting fact I noticed in Yummi's drawing - Rinaldi's measurement of the toe falls outside of the stain outline.

No more about it, I promise, unless someone asks a question

Interesting, this is a much closer match than Raffaele's. I agree that a lot of it is just guesswork and it is doesn't really prove anything. To me, the only thing it proves is that the prosecution expert is out of his mind to exclude Rudy from this footprint.

 

[LondonJohn]

Interesting, this is a much closer match than Raffaele's. I agree that a lot of it is just guesswork and it is doesn't really prove anything. To me, the only thing it proves is that the prosecution expert is out of his mind to exclude Rudy from this footprint.

There are only a handful of people in the world who even claim a speciality in forensic podiatry, and I don't think Lorenzo Rinaldi is one of them. Rinaldi is employed by the Italian State Police - he certainly doesn't count as an independent expert. And I think his analysis of the foot prints was coloured by an unhealthy combination of lack of expertise and confirmation bias.

By the way, does anyone know what phase the Moon is in tonight........?

 

[LondonJohn]

LOL, I was just about to reply to your earlier post, Rose. I was going to say: I've read very few articles about the case, and have no opinion at all on her guilt/innocence, but from the little I've seen of the newspaper reports there seems to be a strong (and worrying) similarity with the early reporting on the Kercher case. Some of the comments in other places - all pretty much presuming her guilt - have also been pretty disturbing. No idea whether she's guilty or innocent, but she deserves a fair trial either way.

I wasn't really following the Knox case in the early days, except for reading (and believing) the occasional newspaper article on it. It's fascinating and horrifying to see the same thing playing out in real time, both the reporting of the murder and people's responses to it.

ETA: When I talk about the media coverage of the case, I suppose I'm also conflating the authorities' handling of the case and the leaking of various details to the press. I don't just mean the reporting of it in the papers, but the handling of the case overall.

Though personally I do find the comments about the case worrying as well - there are already Facebook hate groups set up...

My opinion would dovetail with Katy's. There does seem to be a very nasty media (and by extension public) witch hunt going on at the moment, but I don't think anyone in the general public is in a position to know what's really going on. Maybe when all the evidence is presented in a court trial, we might have a better idea. Meanwhile we'll have to allow ourselves to be convinced by pictures of young women biting their fingernails.....

 

[RoseMontague]

There are only a handful of people in the world who even claim a speciality in forensic podiatry, and I don't think Lorenzo Rinaldi is one of them. Rinaldi is employed by the Italian State Police - he certainly doesn't count as an independent expert. And I think his analysis of the foot prints was coloured by an unhealthy combination of lack of expertise and confirmation bias.

By the way, does anyone know what phase the Moon is in tonight........?

Well,
Jupiter is definitely not aligned with Mars.

 

[LondonJohn]

And here's my idea - disregarding the less pronounced and incomplete parts of the stain and matching the most articulated i.e. the big toe, the ball of the foot and it's front left edge, that is printed on a flat part of the cloth.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_427054cc48281e7980.jpg[/qimg]

My conclusion is that the print is incomplete and can only barely be used to exclude someone. Rudy can't be excluded but I guess if I tried to fit my own foot, it will match as well.

As for the confirmation bias, while removing the hand-drawing from the methodology helps, still there's huge element of subjectivity in positioning the print and interpreting the results.

One interesting fact I noticed in Yummi's drawing - Rinaldi's measurement of the toe falls outside of the stain outline.

No more about it, I promise, unless someone asks a question

Thanks Katody. Your articulation and illustration exactly mirror my views on this whole footprint area. I - like you - firmly believe that there's no way anyone can say that the bath mat print matches Sollecito and doesn't match Guede. And I also believe that my own foot print would probably match with the same degree of accuracy (or inaccuracy).

 

[LondonJohn]

well,
jupiter is definitely not aligned with mars.

howwwwwwwwlllllllllll!!!!!!

 

[treehorn]

No. Knox was identified as the person responsible for hosting the party where antisocial behaviour was reported. There's quite a difference.

Seattle Officer:

"I issued S1/Knox this infraction for the noise violation and a warning for the rock throwing. I explained how dangerous and juvenile that action was."

Too bad, the Seattle police didn't go further and charge AK under the criminal code for, at a minimum, mischief in respect of private property.

That might have gotten her parents' attention: Rehab instead of Europe, unsupervised.

 

[LondonJohn]

Incidentally, "Part 2" of Yummi's analysis is interesting, inasmuch as it discusses what Yummi believes is a "remarkable feature" - the possible blood/water imprint of a second, smaller foot in the centre of the bath mat.

However, if this collection of stains WAS made by a footprint, the foot in question was around 180mm in length (the police ruler on the mat in the same photo is very useful in this regard!). And this corresponds to a child's foot with EUR size 28 or 29 shoe. So either Yummi believes that a young child was also involved in the murder or clean up, or it's another example of the deficiency of this analysis.

 

[treehorn]

I trust that this point won't be taken personally or reported...Posting on these forums obsessively is, imho, behaviour that suggests a person has difficulty interacting with other humans.... out of touch with the kinds of things people in their 20s get into today, the kinds of relationships they have with their parents, and their exposure to pressures that are very different than those young people faced 20 years ago.

a) you directly imply that I am "obsessive..." and have "difficulty interacting with other humans" - on what basis, exactly, do you assume either of those things? How on earth could I not take those remarks "personally"?

b) why do you assume I am not in my 20's?

Your post is not only filled to the brim with erroneous suppositions, it's little more than ad hominem nonsense.

I do not think you are adding to the discussion.

 

[katy_did]

Just to chime in on the whole phone call debate, I'd be interested in knowing what Katody et al think Edda meant by saying "...but nothing had happened yet" when taped conversing with Amanda about the call. Why did Edda describe the call this way?

I think the first problem with discussing the intercepted conversation is that we only have short extracts from it, which means there's little context to judge it (especially given that other quotes have been distorted and taken out of context on occasion, like the "I can't lie, I was there" quote). I had a look back at the quotes we do have; first, here's the longer extract, from TJMK:

Edda (surprised): But you called me three times.

Amanda: Oh, I don’t remember that.

Edda: Okay, you called me first to tell me about some things that had shocked you. But this happened before anything really happened in the house.

Amanda: I know I was making calls. I remember calling Filomena, but I really don’t remember calling anyone else. I just don’t remember having called you.

Edda: Why would that be? Stress, you think?

Amanda: Maybe because so many things were happening at once.

Edda: Okay, right.

Having read this properly, I don't think Edda is suggesting this phone call was made at a strange time; I think she's clarifying for Amanda that this first phone call took place before any activity happened in the house - before the police and Filomena's friends arrived, before the door was broken down, before Meredith's body had been discovered - but after they'd discovered the things that had 'shocked' them (the door, the blood, the broken window). In doing so, she's also distinguishing this phone call from the following two phone calls, which took place after these other things had happened.

Edda's questioning of Amanda here isn't about the timing of the call, it's about her forgetting it: "Why would that be?" (Why might you have forgotten it?). She's not suggesting Amanda didn't have enough reason to call - something which would make no sense anyway, given she told Amanda to call the police.

The second extract from the conversation is the one Massei quotes:

M. You called me one time saying...
A: I was in shock you know.
M: But this was before anything happened except for the fact that the house was... (RIT 397/08, of November 10, 2007).

At first I thought this must have been from another part of the conversation, and that it sounds more incriminating for Amanda than the TJMK extract (i.e. Edda asking Amanda why she was shocked since 'nothing had happened'). But the odd thing is it sounds very like Edda's words in the TJMK extract:

you called me first to tell me about some things that had shocked you. But this happened before anything really happened in the house.

I wonder if this is a mistranslation, in which the translator thought both Edda and Amanda were speaking when in fact it was only Edda. The TJMK version of this conversation certainly makes more sense than Massei's one, with its odd outburst from Amanda mid-sentence and Edda's sentences trailing into nothing. I'm not sure of the TJMK source, but theirs sounds like the original English, while the Massei version is obviously translated into Italian from English (and then back again in the PMF version).

If so, it's a pretty unfortunate mistranslation, since it gives the impression Edda is asking Amanda why she was shocked given that "this was before anything happened", and therefore that the timing of this call was suspicious - a mistranslation then picked up and embellished by Comodi, and used by Massei in the sentencing report.

(Wonder if it was that German translator? I bet it was).

 

[treehorn]

Every time you post this somewhere, treehorn, I show you why Covington's analysis is invalid, yet you persist. ...

Whom did Amanda con?

You, for one.

 

[LondonJohn]

Seattle Officer:

"I issued S1/Knox this infraction for the noise violation and a warning for the rock throwing. I explained how dangerous and juvenile that action was."

Too bad, the Seattle police didn't go further and charge AK under the criminal code for, at a minimum, mischief in respect of private property.

That might have gotten her parents' attention: Rehab instead of Europe, unsupervised.

Too bad they didn't eh? Because to charge Knox with a criminal act, they would have to have proven that it was she who actually threw the rocks (or perhaps, at a minimum, she directed those who threw the rocks).

Whereas, in reality, the police most likely knew that it wasn't Knox who threw the rocks. All they knew was that Knox identified herself as the "person responsible for the party", and they warned & fined her in that capacity. And, as indicated elsewhere, it's been established that her party friends re-imbursed her for the fine, since they knew that Knox had taken the rap but hadn't personally caused the disturbance.

I know you'd desperately like to think otherwise, and that this Seattle incident somehow paints Knox personally as a rock-throwing neighbour-taunting anti-social maniac, who was clearly out of control before she even set off to Europe. The evidence, however, does not indicate anything of the sort. Try another avenue.

 

[treehorn]

Exactly right. Defendants in criminal trials are not required to prove their innocence. If they can do so, then so much the better for them, but there's zero requirement for this to happen for a "not guilty" verdict to ensue.

Just like there is "zero requirement" for the prosecution to show/ prove 'motive' for a 'guilty' verdict to ensue.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

OK,
I am open to suggestions. Either nobody is interested in Sarah Scazzi case or maybe I need to start a new thread if there is some interest. The comparisons between Amanda Knox and Sabrina Misseri are already starting. My concern is that Sabrina may be getting similar treatment from the authorities as Amanda received and that is the comparison I find frightening, not the ones comparing Amanda and Sarah, assuming guilt on both of their parts.

http://translate.google.com/transla...10/24/AMthBLBE-sabrina_piangendo_teneva.shtml



Open to suggestions, including not interested, don't post on this case.

After reading about the case, I have doubts that her cousin Sabrina was involved. At the very least, no evidence has come forth that strongly implicates her. I consider the case to be pertinent to this discussion.