WTC dust

[Thunder]

Suppose it was a resonance of some kind that caused the molecules in the steel to seperate from each other? Say a frequency of a million cycles a second or something like that ?

Perhaps the power could be drawn up from the Earth through the building frame in some way in a Tesla-style technology?

 

[W.D.Clinger]

reproducible estimates

The Enthalpy of Atomization for iron (temperature to complete dissocaiate all the atoms - vapourised) = 414.2 kJ/mol and it's average atomic mass is 55.847 (http://environmentalchemistry.com/yogi/periodic/Fe.html#Physical)

So to vapourise 1kg of iron requires 1000 * 414.2 / 55.847 = 7416.7 kJ = 7.4167 x 10^6 J

the energy to vapourise all that iron then is 7.4167 x 10^6 x 1.397 x 10^8 = 1.036 x 10^15 J

To give you an idea of the energy involved that's 247kt!

This all assumes that the energy is transferred at 100% efficiency, according to this site http://www.ausairpower.net/AADR-HEL-Dec-81.html the efficiency of transfering energy into aluminium (which the WTC was clad with is about 3%, even if I allow for 30% transfer (because the surface may not be smooth and shiny) that still means having to input 1.036 x 10^15 / 0.3 = 3.45 x 10^15 J, then there's the generating efficiency of the laser and propagation losses through the atmosphere (likely to be less than 10%). On top of that add on the mass of concrete and aluminium in the tower (probably tripling the energy required), the energy involved is absolutely ridiculous, somewhere in the region of 3 * 10 * 3.45 x 10^15 = 1.035 x 10^17 J

It's nice to have independent confirmation of my calculations. You're estimating 1e17 J. I had estimated 7.5e16 J, just 25% less than your estimate:

I was unable to find reliable technical data for "dustification", but it takes about 150 MJ/kg to vaporize an object. Each WTC tower weighs roughly 500000 tons, which is 5e8 kg (where the "5e8" means 5 multiplied by 10 to the 8th power), so it would take roughly

5e8 kg * 150 MJ/kg = 7.5e16 J

of energy to vaporize one WTC tower. With a 3 MW THEL/ACTD, it would take roughly

7.5e16 J / 3e6 W = 2.5e10 seconds

to vaporize one WTC tower. That's almost eight hundred years.

A terrible thing, actually applying a little bit of maths. It's a pity WTC Dust and Judy Wood with all their qualifications couldn't do that.

Yep. If I were a skeptical sort, I might be about ready to consider the possibility that Dr Judy Wood does not rank at the very top of her profession, or that WTC Dust was lying when he claimed to be a research scientist.

 

[bill smith]

Yes. It's called 'Science Fiction'. Attractive and interesting hypothetical ideas, but not reality.

Suppose I could shape-shift and pour myself into the internet and then seep out of your computer monitor? Wouldn't that be cool? Suppose I could, just by thinking about you, send you to another alternate reality?

Oh wait, you're already in a different reality...too late!

Well I know that they test Boeing airframes on the 'big shaker' at 2,000 cycles a second. But at 5,000 cycles per second the frame would literelly explode apart. Now imagine steel at (say) one million cycles a second.

 

[WildCat]

Very good question. I'm waiting it out on this one. Dr. Wood says that an "energy weapon" is the likely cause. I prefer to think of it as a "Tesla weapon" or an "electrical weapon", but I could very well be wrong on this.

Yes, surely either you or Judy must be right.

I mean, it couldn't be that when you demolish anything you get craploads of dust, could it?

Have you ever torn down a ceiling while remodeling a house?

 

[Thunder]

Well I know that they test Boeing airframes on the 'big shaker' at 2,000 cycles a second. But at 5,000 cycles per second the frame would literelly explode apart. Now imagine steel at (say) one million cycles a second.

that's it. the WTC was "shook" to death.

 

[DGM]

Well I know that they test Boeing airframes on the 'big shaker' at 2,000 cycles a second. But at 5,000 cycles per second the frame would literelly explode apart. Now imagine steel at (say) one million cycles a second.

Nice. Now how would you localize such a thing to only destroy a certain building. It's fun to dream but eventually you do have to wake up.

 

[bill smith]

Nice. Now how would you localize such a thing to only destroy a certain building. It's fun to dream but eventually you do have to wake up.

Well they say that the HAARP system can focus energy pretty precisely on a certain point of a stratus of rock sufficient to cause Earthquakes.

This could be a spin-off.

 

[Thunder]

Well they say that the HAARP system can focus energy pretty precisely on a certain point of a stratus of rock sufficient to cause Earthquakes.

"They" lie a lot.

 

[DGM]

Well they say that the HAARP system can focus energy pretty precisely on a certain point of a stratus of rock sufficient to cause Earthquakes.

This could be a spin-off.

Maybe you might want to look closely at who says this.

 

[bill smith]

Maybe you might want to look closely at who says this.

Do you want me to post the video ?

 

[TjW]

Suppose it was a resonance of some kind that caused the molecules in the steel to seperate from each other ? Say a frequency of a million cycles a second or something like that ?

Perhaps the power could be drawn up from the Earth through the building frame in some way in a Tesla-style technology ?

It doesn't matter. It takes the same energy to boil/vaporize a material regardless of the means used.
And you get the same amount of energy per unit of material back when you condense it.

If a material could be vaporized with less than its heat of vaporization, then you have the means to make a perpetual motion machiner: Boil the iron using the low energy method, condense it and recover the heat of vaporization. You can use the heat recovered to boil the iron again. Because it took less than the heat of vaporization to vaporize it, you'll have some heat left over, which you can use for whatever you wanted. The iron isn't used up.

But we're pretty sure the laws of thermodynamics are correct.

It will be interesting to see if our research scientist proposes a beam that initiates a nuclear reaction in the iron. That should be good for a Stundie.

 

[DGM]

Do you want me to post the video ?

Not really. Does a video make something right?

 

[dafydd]

Not really. Does a video make something right?

It does in Trootherland.

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Not really. Does a video make something right?

Well, it would prove that someone said what bill smith claims "they" have said. That's about it, though.

 

[triforcharity]

"Hey, has anyone seen where I parked my Golf? Oh there it...... TRIO!"

Sorry, it was just parked over there.....so, I figured being the NWO and all.....

 

[Oystein]

I don't dispute any of the studies of the dust. I'm pointing out that they all miss the point that there wasn't one type of dust. There were several different types of dust, some of which were metallic.

What's your evidence? Which study has determined this?

The potential energy of the building was due to gravity, and gravity isn't a sufficient explanation for all that dust.

Bare-assed assertion.

Your theory has concrete floors falling twelve feet (not much kinetic energy in a twelve foot fall).

The kinetic energy of 15 and 30 stories of a large office building falling through 12 feet is enourmous - it is about a thousand times the energy that the largest and most advance energy weapons in existance today can deliver in the same time frame. Here is the quick calculation:

Kinetic energy after fall through height h is KE = m * g * h
m = mass of 15 stories = 15/110 * mass of tower * some factor to account for the structural steel being more slender in the top stories; let's take 70%.
KE = 15/110 * 288,000,000kg * 9.8m/s² * 3.8m = 1,400,000,000 Joules

Energy delivered by energy weapon is WE = Power * pulse duration
Power is about 1MW, or 1,000,000W, pulse duration is about 1s (roughly the time for a fall of 1 story)
WE = 1,000,000W * 1s = 1,000,000 Joules. or 1/1,400th the potential energy.

All this is basic, 11th grade high scholl physics.

Also, your theory doesn't effectively discuss how these floors began to fall.

NIST did a tremendous job there. You weren't discussing collapse initiation, neither was I.
Fires and plane impact damage did it. Simple.

It's actually a mishmash, your theory. Floors didn't fall. By the time anything began to fall, it was already dust.

What evidence do you have for that?

 

[Oystein]

The only person who comes close is Dr. Judy Wood, and I'm willing to dump her theory as soon as it is debunked.

I have not seen any theory by Mrs. Wood that explains how steel gets dustified, and she also does not explain what the steel turns into when dustified, if it isn't steel still. Without knowing what the theory is, no one can debunk it. In fact, here is what Mrs. Wood says about the weapon she thought was used:

we make no claim about whether the directed energy weapon operated from a space-, air-, or ground-based platform. Nor do we make any claim about what wavelength(s) was used, what the source(s) of energy was, whether it involved interference of multiple beams, whether it involved sound waves, whether it involved sonoluminescence, whether it involved antimatter weapons, whether it involved scalar weapons, whether it was HAARP (more here and here), whether it involved a nuclear process (e.g. NDEW, more info), whether it involved conventional directed energy weapons (cDEW), whether it involved improvised directed energy weapons (iDEW), nor what kind of accelerator was used

Source: http://drjudywood.com/articles/DEW/StarWarsBeam7.html

In short: Wood explicitly refuses to state a theory.

 

[Thunder]

The kinetic energy of 15 and 30 stories of a large office building falling through 12 feet is enourmous - it is about a thousand times the energy that the largest and most advance energy weapons in existance today can deliver in the same time frame. Here is the quick calculation:

Kinetic energy after fall through height h is KE = m * g * h
m = mass of 15 stories = 15/110 * mass of tower * some factor to account for the structural steel being more slender in the top stories; let's take 70%.
KE = 15/110 * 288,000,000kg * 9.8m/s² * 3.8m = 1,400,000,000 Joules

Energy delivered by energy weapon is WE = Power * pulse duration
Power is about 1MW, or 1,000,000W, pulse duration is about 1s (roughly the time for a fall of 1 story)
WE = 1,000,000W * 1s = 1,000,000 Joules. or 1/1,400th the potential energy.

All this is basic, 11th grade high scholl physics.

I hope you realize how much time you wasted, typing all of this.

DEWers aren't interested in evidence or facts.

 

[Oystein]

Are you one of the people who say gravity provided all this energy?

Yes. Gravity providet a lot of energy. For each tower, the energy that gravity provided was

GPE = m * g * h
Where
m is the total mass of the tower = 288,000,000kg (this is a conservative estimate by G. Urich. IIRC, Mrs. Wood assumes 500.000.000kg, which would nearly double the available energy provided by gravity)
g is the gravitational acceleration = 9.8m/s²h is the height above ground of the center of mass of the tower. This would be half their roof height if mass was evenly distributed. It isn't, because the lower stories are built more strongly than the upper stories. So h = 40% of the roof height is closer to the true value; that's = 170m

GPE = m * g * h = 288,000,000kg * 9.8m/s² * 170m = 480,297,600,000 Joules.
When a tower collapses in 15 seconds, these Joules are converted into fracture energy, heat and other sinks, at a power rate of GPE / t:
P = 480,297,600,000 Joules / 15s = 32,019,840,000, or about 32,000MW.
A large nuclear power plant has a power output of a bout 1,000MW. Thus,, the power release of gravitational energy alone, per tower, was equal to the total power output of 32 large nuclear power plants.

The most powerful laser weapons in experimental phase today have a power on the order of 1MW, and can fire at most for 5 seconds on end. Their power is weaker than the gravitation power of collapse by a factor of 32,000 and their total energy release is only the 100,000th part, or 0.001% of the potential energy of either tower due to gravity alone.


To this we can add the chemical energy released by the burning of roundabout 10,000 gallons of jet fuel per power, which is about on the same order as the towers' GPE; the kinetic energy of the planes which is much less, but still 1000 times higher than what DEW can do, and the chemical energy contained in combustible office contents, which is even higher than anything we looked at so far.




So no, I am not saying gravity provided all the energy. I am saying that gravity provided 100,000 times more energy than the strongest DEW can, but jets, fuel and burning offices provided even more energy.


The DEW theory is thus 5 orders of magnitude removed from reality.

 

[Oystein]

It doesn't look flat, but the pile appears to be very short. NOT what I expected to see on Day 3. They said that two huge buildings collapsed. I expected to see a pile of debris much taller than two stories, but nope. Very short pile, relative to street level.

How tall a pile did you expect, and why?