Just got a Kindle.

[Mirrorglass]

Well, certainly not if people shrug their shoulders and buy Kindle anyway.

But yeah, I think for most people it's not really an issue, as long as the proprietary format doesn't cause too much inconvenience. It is something that bothers me though, and that would prevent me buying a Kindle - the fact that Amazon has chosen to ignore what everyone else has agreed as the industry standard in an attempt to dominate the market. Kindle probably will support ePUB, once its competitors have been priced nearly out of existence. Whereupon its price will likely skyrocket!

I seriously doubt it will come to that. First of all, it's unlikely that Amazon can drive companies like Apple to bankruptcy, and secondly, even if they did dominate the market, simply mindlessly jacking up prices would not be good business.

You're right about Gutenberg - not sure why I thought their books weren't available for Kindle.

 

[brenn]

so you've bought into a scheme where your "book" needs batteries and your books can be deleted on you. Am I the only who sees of the stupidity of the whole concept?

You mean the concept where you can carry a whole library in something the size and weight of a single thin book? Yes, I'm afraid you are alone.

 

[katy_did]

I seriously doubt it will come to that. First of all, it's unlikely that Amazon can drive companies like Apple to bankruptcy, and secondly, even if they did dominate the market, simply mindlessly jacking up prices would not be good business.

They wouldn't need to drive Apple to bankruptcy to dominate the market for e-readers and discourage other companies from competing. And if they did dominate the market to that extent, wouldn't it make good business sense to increase prices?

However, I hope you're right that it won't come to that.

 

[Mirrorglass]

They wouldn't need to drive Apple to bankruptcy to dominate the market for e-readers and discourage other companies from competing.

I think they would, actually. Apple and pretty much every other company making E-readers, many of which are as cheap as the Kindle, many others much more versatile. Total monopolies are very rare in the tech business these days. The Kindle can get a dominating market position, but it won't get so big Amazon could just double the prices without a competitor taking advantage of it.

And if they did dominate the market to that extent, wouldn't it make good business sense to increase prices?

Not really. The Amazon people want people to have Kindles. The more people own a Kindle, the more people buy books for it, and that's where the real profits are. The Kindle is a nice piece of technology, but it's purpose is to make people buy e-books from Amazon. Rising the price would just make less people buy the thing, which would mean less people buying books. If producing Kindles was cheap enough, they'd be giving them away for free.

However, I hope you're right that it won't come to that.

I'm very confident it won't.

 

[NewtonTrino]

I'm a tech junky but I refuse to buy a kindle. Why? Because I like owning actual books. If I've read something I want a copy of it on my shelf taking up physical space. If they started including the e-book for a couple of dollars when you buy the hardcover I would be in like flynn.

Does anyone else see this as a problem? Maybe I'm an anomaly because I like actual hardback books and endeavor to have myself a decent library?

 

[Mirrorglass]

I'm a tech junky but I refuse to buy a kindle. Why? Because I like owning actual books. If I've read something I want a copy of it on my shelf taking up physical space. If they started including the e-book for a couple of dollars when you buy the hardcover I would be in like flynn.

Does anyone else see this as a problem? Maybe I'm an anomaly because I like actual hardback books and endeavor to have myself a decent library?

Books are nice, to be sure, but there's no reason not to have your sandwich and eat it too. I don't want to own a hardcover version of every book I read, but on the other hand, owning a Kindle doesn't stop me from buying real books when I feel like it. And the kindle offers added benefits; I can comfortably read books that aren't available in print, I can get books without waiting for them to ship, and of course, I can carry a thousand books around in my jacket pocket.

I have a library of my own, and I've no doubt it will keep growing. The only difference is that now it will only grow by books worth owning physically.

 

[AdMan]

If they started including the e-book for a couple of dollars when you buy the hardcover I would be in like flynn.

I like this idea--this is similar to some DVDs that now come with a version of the movie that you can download to a mobile device. I wonder why it hasn't been done with books. Maybe it's something that's coming.

 

[RoboTimbo]

I like this idea--this is similar to some DVDs that now come with a version of the movie that you can download to a mobile device. I wonder why it hasn't been done with books. Maybe it's something that's coming.

I know of one and there may be others. Baen that was mentioned earlier gives the CD with all the different ebook formats on it when you buy one of their DTBs.

 

[Horatius]

I know of one and there may be others. Baen that was mentioned earlier gives the CD with all the different ebook formats on it when you buy one of their DTBs.

Not only does Baen give you a CD with the book on it, the CD includes a whole lot of other books. Books from the author's back catalog, and usually books by similar authors you might like. I've got quite a few books on my Kindle that I copied off such CDs, from authors I probably wouldn't have paid money for just on spec. Some of them suck, but some are pretty good. It's a great way to find new authors to read without risking spending lots of money on crap.

 

[katy_did]

I think they would, actually. Apple and pretty much every other company making E-readers, many of which are as cheap as the Kindle, many others much more versatile. Total monopolies are very rare in the tech business these days. The Kindle can get a dominating market position, but it won't get so big Amazon could just double the prices without a competitor taking advantage of it.

Not really. The Amazon people want people to have Kindles. The more people own a Kindle, the more people buy books for it, and that's where the real profits are. The Kindle is a nice piece of technology, but it's purpose is to make people buy e-books from Amazon. Rising the price would just make less people buy the thing, which would mean less people buying books. If producing Kindles was cheap enough, they'd be giving them away for free.

Well, perhaps so. I certainly take your point that Kindle exists principally as a way for Amazon to sell their own books, and that this makes it less likely they'll excessively raise the price of it. On the other hand, if they have enough of a market hold that people will buy it anyway, because it's the product to have for the e-reading public, I also can't see them keeping the price low if they can get away with raising it.

I'm still bothered enough on principle by Amazon's attempt to tie the customer to their own store (even if there are ways around that, the point is there shouldn't need to be) to stop me getting a Kindle. But if they had support for ePUB, I'd be there (also if they started giving them away for free).

I guess the obvious comparison here would be Apple, with the dominance of their mp3 players and the proprietary format I think they originally used. What's your view on how similar/different the two situations are or might turn out to be? I don't really know enough about the tech business, the different markets and so on to be able to comment on that, really. Though it'll be fascinating to see how the digital book/e-reader market develops in comparison to what happened with the music industry and what they learn (or don't learn) from the latter.

 

[katy_did]

I'm a tech junky but I refuse to buy a kindle. Why? Because I like owning actual books. If I've read something I want a copy of it on my shelf taking up physical space. If they started including the e-book for a couple of dollars when you buy the hardcover I would be in like flynn.

Does anyone else see this as a problem? Maybe I'm an anomaly because I like actual hardback books and endeavor to have myself a decent library?

I used to feel exactly the same, till I got one. Which isn't to say I don't appreciate actual books too, but the convenience of an e-reader is hard to beat.

The biggest problem with real books is that they take up so much space. Ideally I guess I'd have a huge library to keep all my books in, but given that I only have a couple of bookshelves overflowing in all directions with books stacked everywhere (and several boxes of books in storage besides) keeping hundreds of books on an e-reader becomes very tempting.

(Plus reading a book on an e-reader always makes me feel like I'm living in the future. But that's probably just me).

 

[RoboTimbo]

I still have hundreds of DTBs but now I also have about 600 digital that I can carry with me when I travel. I usually have 3 or 4 in process at any one time.

 

[NewtonTrino]

I used to feel exactly the same, till I got one. Which isn't to say I don't appreciate actual books too, but the convenience of an e-reader is hard to beat.

Technically I can use the kindle software on my phone but I have plenty of stuff to read on the web anyway.

The biggest problem with real books is that they take up so much space. Ideally I guess I'd have a huge library to keep all my books in, but given that I only have a couple of bookshelves overflowing in all directions with books stacked everywhere (and several boxes of books in storage besides) keeping hundreds of books on an e-reader becomes very tempting.

I have a huge house. In our next place we are having a beautiful library built (think dark wood and 30ft ceilings). Wealth has it's benefits

(Plus reading a book on an e-reader always makes me feel like I'm living in the future. But that's probably just me).

Hence my original comment about loving gadgets.

What they are charging for digital copies is robbery considering how little the author generally gets. I would gladly pay a few bucks to get the digital copy with the hardcover.

 

[BenBurch]

...

You're right about Gutenberg - not sure why I thought their books weren't available for Kindle.

Amazon has done a great job of having many free titles directly in their catalog, BTW.

The proprietary format is not an evil thing; It is what is required to get publishers to buy in. Without that buy-in you will not have newer books to read.

 

[NewtonTrino]

The proprietary format is not an evil thing; It is what is required to get publishers to buy in. Without that buy-in you will not have newer books to read.

It's still evil. We are talking about BOOKS here! Not using an open format is criminal.

Anyway this is a ideological position not a right vs wrong argument so it's probably not something we should turn this thread into.

 

[BenBurch]

It's still evil. We are talking about BOOKS here! Not using an open format is criminal.

Anyway this is a ideological position not a right vs wrong argument so it's probably not something we should turn this thread into.

It publishers could trust people not to give copies away to all of their friends, there would be no issue.

But publishers (and self-publishers) need to make money.

If they don't, many, many fewer books.

How do you solve this issue with an open format that has no DRM?

And in any case, the DRM has long since been compromised, if it really matters to you.

But the fact that Amazon has developed free players for almost every platform on the planet means that they are not at all trying to lock you into buying their devices.

 

[lionking]

I have found this to be a con as well as a pro.

It's like living right downstairs from your coke dealer.

Very true. My kids gave me a $120 amazon gift voucher for Fathers Day, and I spent it, and more, in a few days.

 

[NewtonTrino]

It publishers could trust people not to give copies away to all of their friends, there would be no issue.

But publishers (and self-publishers) need to make money.

If they don't, many, many fewer books.

How do you solve this issue with an open format that has no DRM?

And in any case, the DRM has long since been compromised, if it really matters to you.

But the fact that Amazon has developed free players for almost every platform on the planet means that they are not at all trying to lock you into buying their devices.

Look you know I own a software company right? DRM is simply the wrong way to try and solve the problem of piracy. Piracy is all about the value proposition. You see a lot of it when you aren't giving good value for the money. There's no reason that e-books should cost as much as paper books. In fact under the e-book model there is almost no need whatsoever for a book publishing company! The music industry has been going through the same transition. The entire business model needs to change to recognize the fact that it's free to copy information. The book makers can continue to ignore that reality and I will continue to not buy their e-books. I refuse to pirate stuff as that would make me a complete hypocrite, expecting my customers to pay me for something I myself steal. At the same time I refuse to pay an outrageous price for an e-book when I've already (in my mind) paid for the information by buying a hardcopy.

The bottom line issue is that the cost of publishing information has decreased dramatically and the book publishers are now thrashing dinosaurs. I can easily forsee a time when all books are digital and hardcopies are simply bound printouts that you can custom order if you want to pay the cost of printing. Book publishers would basically be left to the business of editing and advertising. Of course the primary reason de etre for book publishers in reality has been to supply capital in the form of advances and fronting the cost of printing. Without the cost of printing the need for a publisher reduces dramatically.

Any business that deals information has had to deal with these facts of life sooner or later. This is one of the reasons you see a lot of software products going to a service model instead of a shrink wrap model.

Anyway I'm now ranting but you get the idea.

 

[BenBurch]

Look you know I own a software company right? DRM is simply the wrong way to try and solve the problem of piracy. Piracy is all about the value proposition. You see a lot of it when you aren't giving good value for the money. There's no reason that e-books should cost as much as paper books. In fact under the e-book model there is almost no need whatsoever for a book publishing company! The music industry has been going through the same transition. The entire business model needs to change to recognize the fact that it's free to copy information. The book makers can continue to ignore that reality and I will continue to not buy their e-books. I refuse to pirate stuff as that would make me a complete hypocrite, expecting my customers to pay me for something I myself steal. At the same time I refuse to pay an outrageous price for an e-book when I've already (in my mind) paid for the information by buying a hardcopy.

The bottom line issue is that the cost of publishing information has decreased dramatically and the book publishers are now thrashing dinosaurs. I can easily forsee a time when all books are digital and hardcopies are simply bound printouts that you can custom order if you want to pay the cost of printing. Book publishers would basically be left to the business of editing and advertising. Of course the primary reason de etre for book publishers in reality has been to supply capital in the form of advances and fronting the cost of printing. Without the cost of printing the need for a publisher reduces dramatically.

Any business that deals information has had to deal with these facts of life sooner or later. This is one of the reasons you see a lot of software products going to a service model instead of a shrink wrap model.

Anyway I'm now ranting but you get the idea.

But there is nothing in the Amazon model that prevents you from self-publishing without them and delivering content to their device. They have made this actually easy to do.

Amazon, for its part, tried to confine the cost of ANY ebook they sold to a maximum of $9.99, and the rights-owners rebelled. This is why some of these books are so dear right now. And as long as those authors deal with those publishers, it simply will not change; You will have a choice of no e-books at all, paying whatever they demand for an e-book, buying paper books (which are a form of RM if you think about it,) borrowing from a Library, or doing without.

BUT it will soon not be necessary to deal with publishers.

E-book readers will be ubiquitous, and you will make as much money self-publishing your e-books as you ever would have with Harper & Row.

 

[roger]

I'm a tech junky but I refuse to buy a kindle. Why? Because I like owning actual books. If I've read something I want a copy of it on my shelf taking up physical space. If they started including the e-book for a couple of dollars when you buy the hardcover I would be in like flynn.

Does anyone else see this as a problem? Maybe I'm an anomaly because I like actual hardback books and endeavor to have myself a decent library?

I lost over 3/4 of my library to a flood. I lost another 3/4 when we moved to CO and I couldn't afford to ship them. With that, I still have way too many books overflowing every bookcase we have.

I used to think of something, and want to look it up in a book I knew I have. That meant digging through multiple cardboxes for hours until I found the one I was thinking of, then paging through the book until I finally came across what I wanted. Actually, more often it meant admitting defeat before starting on that multi-hour journey.

The main issue I have with electronic books is screen size. I'm eying the Kindle, but wonder at how much text fits on the screen. I would be using it for a lot of technical documents (computer books), and it is nice to have two pages open at once - this allows you to easily see example code and the text describing it at once. OTOH, I have this thick 700+ hardback computer book on my desk, and it is endlessly flipping shut or otherwise fighting me - I dream of having it in a kindle version. So, I don't know.

edit: I didn't make my point well. One point was that that many books becomes unwieldy (even with a huge house with 30ft ceilings), but the other point was that after you lose something physical that you cherish, you (I) lose the sentimental value that you held for them.