Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[Lothian]

Well one argument why one might say it is truer and clearer is because the New Testament motivated a person like Thomas Jefferson to take the time to cut out 900 verses of it and paste them in a book and call Jesus' teachings the most moral, pure, and sublime ever taught by man.

Doc I am surprised that you say the above given you earlier said

I've already discussed the passage at least 10 times so I'm not going to repeat my response.

Why is 10 times the limit for Jesus's teaching people to whip slaves, but you can bring up TJ's cut and paste job 28 times (yes I have counted). Perhaps your memory is slipping, anyway some random responses from earlier.

And Jefferson was a slave owner and this whole point is a dodge.

How can something be both "the most moral teaching ever known to man" and use slavery parables to teach that morality?

No, those are actual Jefferson quotes, but besides taking them out of context to support his usual line of theocratic BS, I think DOC is pulling them from that fracking, white supremacist web site... again: (http://christianparty.net/tjchristian.htm)

A Google search of the quotes gave it away as a common source. What do you want to bet he'll claim that he didn't know he's using a racist website as a source... again?

DOC shows his true colors... again.

Thanks, DOC. I couldn't find those quotes anywhere. Here's a website that has some more quotes by Jefferson that you should check out:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm

Here's a couple of quotes from Jefferson I think you should pay attention to:

"Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being."

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."

"Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind."

You'll note that in the quote you used, "A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen" is referring to "I, too, have made a wee-little book from the same materials, which I call the Philosophy of Jesus; it is a paradigma of his doctrines, made by cutting the texts out of the book, and arranging them on the pages of d blank book, in a certain order of time or subject." In other words, he's not specifically talking about the Bible, he's talking about his edited version of the Bible where he cuts all the craziness out and just keeps the parts that he likes.



It would, except that by modern standards, I think a lot of people would agree that the morals in the Bible are questionable. You and Jefferson are welcome to your opinion, but that's all it is. My opinion is that the morals of the Bible are archaic and out-of-date. Both of our opinions are subjective, but I think mine is a bit more realistic and unbiased, where as yours is based on a need for the Bible to be real.

DOC, honest question. Do you know the difference between subjective and objective? Could you describe it for me?

And also, I would still really like to hear if you know what a logical fallacy is. Would you mind answering that? Thanks.

I'll take "false dichotomy" for $200, Alex.

Can someone PM me a bingo card?

ETA - with a side of argument from authority.

How many times do you need to be told that these pathetic appeals to authority which you parrot at every opportunity as though they were actual answers to the questions you've been asked before you finally realise that every single person who has even glanced at this thread sees that you have not one whit of the evidence that you undertook to provide in the OP.

The dishonesty of your approach to the matters discussed in this thread is absolutely breathtaking DOC, and you ought to thank your lucky stars that the humour we've been able to extract from the drivel that you post is sufficient distraction from your disgraceful hypocrisy that you aren't treated with the full measure of scorn which your feeble excuses for posts so richly deserve.






You have no right to anything. You've treated everyone posting in this thread with nothing but contempt, and the only expectation you can reasonably hold is that you will be treated likewise in return.

Your posts are nought but lies and hypocrisy DOC, and they've demonstrated, hundreds and hundreds of times, that such is all that you are capable of.

What an absolutely disgraceful performance.

It also didn't stop him saying that the supernatural parts were nonsense, and cutting them out of his version of the bible. Do you only choose to use those of his arguments which agree with you?

A cynic might point out that he tried to salvage the worthwhile parts from the dross.

As he said, there were diamonds in the dung hill.

Again, I have no clue how you can be happy that Jefferson would call the bible a piece of poop.

...and has been pointed out to you repeatedly, none of what he cut out and pasted included the magical bits.

Are you unable to read or simply dense?

ETA: I notice you mention the razor repeatedly. Do you think the razor has some significance?

There's that old argument from incredulity again.

We don’t know what exactly he was referring to. As you are aware, apart from the support of slavery, Jefferson found little in the bible credible.

But I sure many here are prepared to give your question a shot. You list the individual teachings and we will see if we can find out where they originated and who may have created them.

You do realize that a good number of those "moral and sublime" teachings are in no way unique or original to Jesus, yes?




The forged ones that were written by early Christians to support their beliefs. Rather like the forged ones attributed to Paul that made it into the New Testament.

You mean all the non-supernatural accounts from the gospels? Yeah, it could have been lying fishermen, or lying woodworkers, or lying stone carvers. Whatever.



I thnk he meant "Tacitus", not "Pilate"

but they tell s nothing about whether the NT writers told the truth.



We can add 12 one dozen and two little ducks 22 to the tally.

xx | xx | 3 |xx | 5 | xx | xx | xx | 9 | 10
11 | xx | 13 | 14 | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx
xx | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx | 29 | 30
xx | 32 | 33 | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx | xx | 40
41 | xx | 43 | 44 | 45 | 46 | 47 | 48 | 49 | 50

That's exactly right. EXACTLY RIGHT! 100% correct,

It's everyone's free will do come to that decision, and everyone has. Have you read this thread at all?

[qimg]http://www.yvonneclaireadams.com/HostedStuff/Word5.jpg[/qimg]​

You do know of the "Jefferson Bible", where he threw out all the magic stuff, it is a thin book.

Paul

There you go again. You're seeking to provide evidence that what is in the New Testament is true, and the parts which are most open to doubt are those which are supernatural. So of what benefit is it to bring in someone who quite specifically does not believe those parts?

Why the hell does DOC, who firmly believes that the resurrection of Christ is an established fact, keep dragging Thomas Jefferson's name into this thead? DOC, you must know by now that Jefferson's own edited version of the New Testament ends with the burial of Jesus. He rejected all the supernatural elements you are so desperate to believe in. Yes, Jefferson thought that some of Christ's pronouncements were worth salvaging, but this has nothing to do with providing "evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth". We are now on page 208 and you have provided no evidence whatsoever.

Ok, so, Jefferson thought the morality of Jesus was worth following (for the most part). That is no evidence that the NT is factually accurate.

That doesn't make the NT factual any more than arguing that Superman exists if Jefferson were to have believed that the morality of Superman is worth adopting.

Doc, do you even realize what Jefferson was actually telling Adams?

Here's the very first line of the Wiki page you linked to:



So, we have Jefferson discussing his own version of the bible that removes all the supernatural (resurrection/miracles/etc). Using Jefferson's version of the bible hurts rather than helps your argument. Obviously, Jefferson felt the NT writers had not told the truth and this is why he was editing his own "more truthful" version.

Again, the question becomes:

Are you willfully ignorant or do you honestly not see the holes in your "logic"?

Which part of the NT are you claiming is true? The teachings or the miracles and other supernatural parts? Because if it's the former, I don't think you'll find too much opposition; sure, there's no external evidence, but a record of what one man is supposed to have said is a lot more believable than a catalogue of paranormal events. But what most people here are assuming is that you are talking about the latter. If you are agreeing with Jefferson about those, please state that clearly.

ETA:
I'm sorry, are you really saying that the fact that Jefferson didn't believe in the supernatural parts is proof that they were true? Because that's what you seem to be saying.


I sincerely doubt that; Jefferson was intelligent. And it's "wouldn't have", not "wouldn't of".

So... in the ongoing quest to maintain your delusion, you're content to employ unabashed cherry-picking...

Right.

Got it.

Thanks for the clarification.






Please, try harder to remember which lies you have on the boil, and where; your Geiseler lie has been thoroughly debunked on this forum

So you are alright with everything else that Jefferson said about the Bible as well or are you leaving those things out for a reason? If not, tell us why this statement alone matters and not the host of others.

You've got it backwards, it was the lies he left out...

Let me be the first to say

PFFFFFFFFFT!

All those points have been raised, addressed and eliminated from consideration. Now, the only thing left is ridicule.

And I have 3189 pieces of evidence that you don't know what you're talking about.

Do you think someone who kept slaves is the best person to judge what is morally right?

Never mind the slave owning Jefferson. Which is more moral in your opinion? Equaility between the sexes as taught in Sikhism or the Christian view where the man is more important.

I even found one of yours that is relevant

Another post with no examples or sources.

 

[Helen]

Water damage combined with a cemetery move ? It happened with the tomb of my fiancee. Sadly she hasn't visited me or my dream in 20 years.

Mum was bulldozed into having a traditional funeral and a grave when dad died - "for the sake of the children, they need a grave to visit" - although she and dad wanted nothing of the sort, they wanted his ashes scattered at sea. She thought they were right, and knew better than her, which they weren't, and didn't, so as soon as we could we rectified this...

Sorry to hear about your fiancee, and her absence from your dreams. It's hard, isn't it, when they disappear into the past? Dad is still a vistor in my dreams, but very seldom now.

 

[Akhenaten]

Doc I am surprised that you say the above given you earlier said Why is 10 times the limit for Jesus's teaching people to whip slaves, but you can bring up TJ's cut and paste job 28 times (yes I have counted). Perhaps your memory is slipping, anyway some random responses from earlier.

<gosh>

I even found one of yours that is relevant

You're awesome.

 

[Lothian]

You're awesome.

I can cut and paste.

 

[amb]

Is DOC a disciple of Ken Ham and his creation museum? If not, he may as well be one.

 

[zooterkin]

I see. I thought there would be whisky in the bar-o. Pity. You may cancel the room.

Shame! I was going to hold out for microwave popcorn, at least.

 

[zooterkin]

I can cut and paste.

It's the finding what to cut that's impressive. I've never had the patience to find so many examples, with the primitive search tools here.

 

[Lothian]

It's the finding what to cut that's impressive. I've never had the patience to find so many examples, with the primitive search tools here.

I assure you when it comes to finding posts refuting Doc's 'evidence' there is no shortage to choose from.

In this case an advanced search for 'jefferson sublime' in posts by 'Doc' in the 'history' sub forum brought up his 28 posts. Simply a case of opening a few up scanning down 5 or 10 posts for replies then the mulitquote function does the rest.

 

[kmortis]

I see. I thought there would be whisky in the bar-o. Pity. You may cancel the room.



I would really like to see your answer to this, DOC.

My father's tomb is empty, by the way. We know it is his tomb, the cemetery has records of it, and we were there when he was interred, but now it's empty, and there are official records of that as well. I have had night visions of him coming back from the dead many times since he died over 40 years ago, and just after he died, I predicted his resurrection (actual earwitness reports have me saying "I'm sure he'll come back, mum"), so I suppose his empty tomb is incontrovertible evidence that he has come back from the dead.

I'm just a little peeved that he hasn't come to see us. But I suppose he is busy starting a religion. You know, when I think of it, the fact that he hasn't come to see us yet, although he has clearly risen, is surely even stronger evidence of the truth of this, because it is a bit embarrassing, isn't it, to not come and see your family after being away for over 40 years.


DOC, I was intrigued by your use of the comparative form truer above ("the NT is truer end clearer"). If you say the NT is truer, then there must also be something that is truest. What would that be in your opinion?

I got it! Your dad is Aberhaten!

 

[kmortis]

Well one argument why one might say it is truer and clearer is because the New Testament motivated a person like Thomas Jefferson to take the time to cut out 900 verses of it and paste them in a book and call Jesus' teachings the most moral, pure, and sublime ever taught by man.

Cow poop fertilizes fields....



CORN??!! When did I eat CORN?

 

[kmortis]

Kapyong,
Is this your first entry into the convoluted world that is Religious Discussions with DOC? Yes, that IS his evidence for Jesus. He's just "putting it out there so people can decide". If you don't agree then you had better keep those thoughts to yourself or you'll hurt your credability on these forums where your words are out there for everyone to see how dishonest you are. And if you directly question DOC, you must be attacking the messenger, which is against the Randi Rules.

Seriously, do your blood pressure a favor, use DOC as a springboard, but do not; I repeat do NOT think that he's going to engage in honest debate. He's not. We've tried. Me, joobz, Hokuele, even Akhenaten and others have all tried to get him to look at thinkgs critically, but he seems to be impervious to all attempts. We've gone through drinking games, and now one round of DOC bingo (now with 50% more fallicies!) all to help up the entertainment value. The lurkers get it, they've figured out that DOC is dishonest in his debate tactics, continuiously bringing up discredited sources (remember the racist site he used in the TJ thread? or the so-called "Jew site"?) and we go round and round.

Face it, you're in a thread that purports to give "Evidence for why we know the NT writers told the truth" that has gone on for longer than 10,000 posts. Seriously? It couldn't have been that hard to come up with something that wasn't total ******** by now. So, we slog on. Entertaining ourselves, maybe entertaining others, hopefully eductating some.

Ok, enough maudlin crap. I say we bring back the DOC drinking game WHILE we play DOC bingo! we can get smashed AND win "valuable" prizes!

I'm liking this idea more.

Anyone up for some drunken DOC Bingo? Hell, since this is the internet and this site doesn't have a webcam portal, anyone up for some drunken strip DOC bingo?


BTW, thanks, Lothian, for posting the link to the post that remineded me of this post.

 

[carlitos]

Cow poop fertilizes fields....



CORN??!! When did I eat CORN?

And whale poop ferlitizes the oceans.... Which is probably evidence for creationism, right?

Hey DOC,

Where

When

and

How

did Simon the Zealot die?

PS - kmortis, first time I've seen the 'invisible' tags. Now do I have to quote everything you write, just to see the hidden gems?

 

[Lothian]

PS - kmortis, first time I've seen the 'invisible' tags. Now do I have to quote everything you write, just to see the hidden gems?

No, You can highlight suspicious spaces by clicking and dragging your cursor.

Hide me

 

[kmortis]

And whale poop ferlitizes the oceans.... Which is probably evidence for creationism, right?

<snip the question du jour>

PS - kmortis, first time I've seen the 'invisible' tags. Now do I have to quote everything you write, just to see the hidden gems?

heeheeheee floating whale poop. And people wonder why I don't like to swim in the ocean.

No, not everything. I don't do it ALL the time. In fact, it's a rare occasion.

Great, now EVERYONE will see the really snarky things that I say about them. Thanks eversomuch, carlitos. Sigh...

 

[kmortis]

No, You can highlight suspicious spaces by clicking and dragging your cursor.

Hide me

Except sometimes there's not a suspicious white space. If the overall text is shorter than the height of your avatar block, then it will go completely unnoticed.

So, the key there is keep the invisible portion as short as possible for maximum stealth.

 

[Lothian]

I got it! Your dad is Aberhaten!

Does that mean that Helen and her dream-like visitor are Aberhaten as well?

Does an invisible rule breach get an invisible yellow card?

 

[kmortis]

Does that mean that Helen is Aberhaten as well?

Does an invisible rule breach get an invisible yellow card?

Um, I think so. At least she's the Son Daughter of Aberhaten.

All this reminds me of the "How tall are you" thread.
ht tp://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=973995#post973995
remove the space. did you know that if you put a link inside invisible thingys, it's visible while all the other text around it is invisible? I didn't until I tried to post this. So does that damned smart text...sigh, what's a stealth smart-ass supposed to do?

You bastard! Now my quote of you doesn't match! Better be careful, or I'll shoot this duck.

 

[Lothian]

Um, I think so. At least she's the Son Daughter of Aberhaten.

All this reminds me of the "How tall are you" thread.
ht tp://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=973995#post973995
remove the space. did you know that if you put a link inside invisible thingys, it's visible while all the other text around it is invisible? I didn't until I tried to post this. So does that damned smart text...sigh, what's a stealth smart-ass supposed to do?

You bastard! Now my quote of you doesn't match! Better be careful, or I'll shoot this duck.

I don't know if you noticed but I changed my quote to complete the unholy trinity.
What duck?
Does this bolding in invisible become more invisibler?

 

[kmortis]

I don't know if you noticed but I changed my quote to complete the unholy trinity.
What duck?
Does this bolding in invisible become more invisibler?

Yes, I noticed. I like it. Nice balance, really.

This duck. This one right here -->
What other duck would I be refering to?

 

[Lothian]

Yes, I noticed. I like it. Nice balance, really.

This duck. This one right here -->
What other duck would I be refering to?

They say good things come in threes.

You can't hide smilies in invisible tags either, otherwise I could have brought a duck into the thread for the first time.