Scottish Parliament e-Petition 417

[Bunntamas]

My concern is about the messed up Scottish criminal justice system, in case you've forgotten.

Okay then. Finally, some clarity. So it IS about the Scottish government. Here, I was thinking that with all of the countless loooong, as you say "wall" posts you've made about "alleged" evidence and the Megrahi case, that it was about him. Sorry, my mistake.

But you think it performed just fine, so I don't see much scope for agreement here.

Uh, no. I don't think it performed "just fine". It released a convicted murderer. Against the UN agreement to keep him imprisoned in Scotland, based its whoring to the UK over an oil deal, and on medical advice that was paid for by Libya. But that's another forum.

I have not the slightest intention of trying to change the Scottish government.

Well, that's just sad, considering the current state of affairs.

On the contrary, I will be out there campaigning to get them re-elected. If any shoe-leather I can wear out will help get Christine Grahame one extra vote, I'm up for it.

Wait, I'm confused. Is voting not considered trying to change the government in Soctland? Oh yeah, don't mind me. I don't know anything about devolution.
Good luck with Christine. Maybe your one vote will count. Maybe not doing anything else will make a difference, particularly considering you don't care.
Oh, and by the way, while you're out there shopping for new shoe leather (whilst not doing anything to make a change in your government), maybe you can write a letter or something to convince Christine to get a new hair style - or at least a comb.
Maybe then, someone in parliament will listen to her. Or you, even though you don't care to make a change.

 

[Rolfe]

1,439 signatures.

One to note in particular.

Gareth Peirce.

One very influential lawyer. Was referred to as a "legal genius" on a radio programme I was listening to last week.

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

Okay then. Finally, some clarity. So it IS about the Scottish government.

If the US criminal justice system and the US government are the same thing, then fine. It's not that way here.

Here, I was thinking that with all of the countless loooong, as you say "wall" posts you've made about "alleged" evidence and the Megrahi case, that it was about him. Sorry, my mistake.

I'm not sure how you can separate Megrahi from concerns about his wrongful conviction, any more than you can separate Sally Clark from concerns about accusing mothers of SIDS babies of murder.

Uh, no. I don't think it performed "just fine". It released a convicted murderer.

Let's take this slowly. The criminal justice system convicted a man of mass murder on evidence that would look pretty shaky as a basis for issuing a parking ticket. The government granted compassionate release to a terminally ill prisoner in accordance with the law and precedent.

Against the UN agreement to keep him imprisoned in Scotland, based its whoring to the UK over an oil deal, and on medical advice that was paid for by Libya. But that's another forum.

And if you're still parroting these discredited lies about oil deals and Libya paying for a medical opinion, maybe we need to take a break from this conversation.

Good luck with that. Maybe while shopping for new shoe leather, you can convince Christine to get a new hair style - or at least a comb.

I suspect she has more important things on her mind.

Rolfe.

 

[Bunntamas]

If And if you're still parroting these discredited lies about oil deals and Libya paying for a medical opinion, maybe we need to take a break from this comversation.

Discredited by whom? The media that you repeatedy "parrot"?

 

[Bunntamas]

I suspect she has more important things on her mind.

What mind?

 

[Rolfe]

Discredited by the actual evidence supplied to the US Senators, that they didn't bother to read.

And Christine is actually my MSP at the moment, and works extemely hard for the constituency.

Rolfe.

 

[Bunntamas]

If the US criminal justice system and the US government are the same thing, then fine. It's not that way here.

Um... yes. The criminal justice system here is part of the US government. I'll not chastise you the way you did me for not knowing about the differences in our governments.

I'm not sure how you can separate Megrahi from concerns about his wrongful conviction, any more than you can separate Sally Clark from concerns about accusing mothers of SIDS babies of murder.

How 'bout we stay on topic here, hmmm???

Let's take this slowly.

Good idea.

The criminal justice system

Yes, the Scottish criminal justice system.

convicted a man of mass murder on evidence that would look pretty shaky as a basis for issuing a parking ticket.

Oh gawd, must we go back into Megrahi's affiliations with and employment by terrorists? As I've said before, I have no interest in regurgitating the evidence and verdict which has not been struck down in a court of law. I know I sound like a broken record (though perhaps no more than you and others here regurgitating the media and trial transcripts for years), but it is what it is, and until that changes, sorry, but he's still a convicted murderer. And it was hardly a parking ticket. Have you forgotten that with regards Megrahi, we're talking about the murder of 270 innocents? You call that a parking ticket?????

The government granted compassionate release to a terminally ill prisoner in accordance with the law and precedent.

Okay, so according to the law and precedent, again, Megrahi is guilty.
According to the law and precedent on his release, There was an agreement made with the UN that Megrahi would serve out his sentance in Scotland. According to the law and precedent, he was given of 3 months to live, per a prison GP who was advised by other doctors who were paid by Libya. It has now been more than a year since he was released. And the doctors are all back peddling now. And Scotland is wondering why and pushing back on the US is inquiring about WTF happened, while Scotland throws up their hands in the air and says "it's none of your business"!! HELLO???
Heaven forbid anyone uncover the whoring of Scotland to the UK. YES, for an oil deal.
Have a look at this document, pg. 11 where MacAskill states “I also note that you consider that it may be necessary to offer to incorporate a review procedure in order to give the Libyan authorities room to manoevere”. What do YOU think he was talking about. Manoevere about what? And Why? Oh right, it's all about legal precedence. Yeah. Loop hole in devolution, perhaps? Why on earth would Kenny be looking for room to manoevere in correspondence w/ the UK about Libya if he were all about upholding the laws of Scotland. Bollocks!

 

[Bunntamas]

And Christine is actually my MSP at the moment, and works extemely hard for the constituency.

Wowee.. you must be so proud. Particularly considering everything she has accomplished.

 

[Rolfe]

Um... yes. The criminal justice system here is part of the US government. I'll not chastise you the way you did me for not knowing about the differences in our governments.

You didn't recognise a rhetorical question, did you? My point is that you seem to be assuming, wrongly, that it's the same here.

How 'bout we stay on topic here, hmmm???

I think we're quite a long way from that already. However, the use of analogies is recognised by all forms of debate.

Yes, the Scottish criminal justice system.

Which issued a perverse conviction on the basis of evidence which at the very least had "reasonable doubt" sticking out all over it.

Oh gawd, must we go back into Megrahi's affiliations with and employment by terrorists?

Like Barry George dressed up in black clothes and a gas mask and waved a toy gun around. Like Sally Clark was a "lonely drunk". Like countless people have been fitted up by the cops because their faces fit.

And there isn't even any evidence of what you just said. The people in the Lockerbie case who were known to be affiliated with and employed by terrorists were Talb and Khreesat and Jibril and Elias and so on.

So they must have done it, right?

As I've said before, I have no interest in regurgitating the evidence which has not been struck down. And it was hardly a parking ticket. Have you forgotten that with regards Megrahi, we're talking about the murder of 270 innocents? You call that a parking ticket????? Puuuuhhhlease.

All the more reason to have a fair and honest trial, and make sure you convict the right guy. Might not matter much if someone gets a partking ticket meant for someone else, hardly worth challenging it really. 270 murders is a bit different, as you rightly point out.

Any time you want to explain how the evidence that was accepted by the Zeist court added up to Megrahi having committed that crime, feel free to carry on.

On the basis of 3 months to live. It has now been more than a years since he was released. And heaven forbid anyone uncover the whoring of Scotland to the UK. YES, for an oil deal.

Well, when any deal is uncovered, come and tell us about it. It is literally impossible for the Scottish government to "whore to the UK for an oil deal".

Have a look at this document, pg. 11 where MacAskill states “I also note that you consider that it may be necessary to offer to incorporate a review procedure in order to give the Libyan authorities room to manoevere” Loop hole in devolution, perhaps? Why on earth would Kenny be looking for room to manoevere in correspondence w/ the UK about Libya if he were all about upholding the laws of Scotland. Bollocks!

Bollocks is about right. Have you actually read that letter? It's dated 2007, before anybody knew Megrahi had cancer. It's part of the correspondence about the PTA, and its purpose is to explain to Jack Straw that Kenny MacAskill wants Megrahi specifically excluded from the proposed PTA precisely because he wants to keep faith with the US Lockerbie relatives, goddammit!

Just read what the letter says. Kenny is taking note that Jack Straw wants to include a review procedure in the PTA, to allow the Libyans a bit of leeway to help secure the signing of the agreement. Kenny is saying that he is against this, but if it has to happen he wants it to be made clear that the Scottish government also has a say in the matter.

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

Honestly, Bunntamas, the level of comprehension fail in what you just posted about that letter is just staggering. Do you think you could start reading for comprehension, rather than for cherry-picked sentences that even in isolation don't support your case as you imagine they will?

Rolfe.

 

[Bunntamas]

Any time you want to explain how the evidence that was accepted by the Zeist court added up to Megrahi having committed that crime, feel free to carry on.

However, having considered the whole evidence in the case, including the
uncertainties and qualifications, and the submissions of counsel, we are satisfied that the evidence as to the purchase of
clothing in Malta, the presence of that clothing in the primary suitcase, the transmission of an item of baggage from Malta to London, the identification of the first accused (albeit not absolute), his movements under a false name at or around the material time, and the other background circumstances such as his association with Mr Bollier and with members of the JSO or Libyan military who purchased MST-13 timers, does fit together to form a real and convincing
pattern. There is nothing in the evidence which leaves us with any reasonable doubt as to the guilt of the first accused,
and accordingly we find him guilty of the remaining charge in the Indictment as amended.
[90] The verdicts returned were by a unanimous decision of the three judges of the Court.

Until this is proven otherwise, in a court of law, under legal precedent (your words, your government)
the judgment stands. Sorry darling.

It is literally impossible for the Scottish government to "whore to the UK for an oil deal".

OMG. Whatever you're smoking, I want some.

 

[Bunntamas]

Honestly, Bunntamas, the level of comprehension fail in what you just posted about that letter is just staggering. Do you think you could start reading for comprehension, rather than for cherry-picked sentences that even in isolation don't support your case as you imagine they will?

Rolfe.

My case is already supported, per your government. If you don't like it, do something about it, other than spending countless hours posting in a forum where nobody can do anything about something you seemingly care so deeply for.

 

[Bunntamas]

And by the way, in case you hadn't been paying attention the negotiations for Megrahi's release were indeed going on at the time that correspondence took place. The correspondence I noted may have been in 2007 (and prior), but it's an ongoing correspondence though 2009.

 

[Rolfe]

Until this is proven otherwise, in a court of law, under legal precedent (your words, your government)
the judgment stands. Sorry darling.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again. You're like someone who keeps jumping into a conversation about whether pot should be legalised or not with "but it's illegal and that settles it".

If you can't explain how the evidence accepted by the Zeist court supports the guilty verdict, may I take it that you don't know?

OMG. Whatever you're smoking, I want some.

Well, could you explain to me in terms of the devolution settlement, the relationships between the Westminster and Holyrood governments, and who actually deals in oil and profits from it, how such "whoring" is possible and how MacAskill benefits?

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

My case is already supported, per your government. If you don't like it, do something about it, other than spending countless hours posting in a forum where nobody can do anything about something you seemingly care so deeply for.

And by the way, in case you hadn't been paying attention the negotiations for Megrahi's release were indeed going on at the time that correspondence took place.

Bunntamas, I hate to be so blunt, but every post you make on this topic, which is a complete derail by the way, demonstrates your utter lack of comprehension of the issues at a level which is so fundamental I'm close to despair.

Rolfe.

 

[Bunntamas]

And if you want to nit pick, the spelling, per "legalese" is judgment, not judgement.

 

[Rolfe]

Bunntamas, I hate to be so blunt, but every post you make on this topic, which is a complete derail by the way, demonstrates your utter lack of comprehension of the issues at a level which is so fundamental I'm close to despair.

I'll try again. In 2007, the Libyan government was trying to get Megrahi sent back to Libya to complete his sentence there. Which was completely against the agreement that had been reached between the US Lockerbie relatives and Westminster of course, but they had written a get-out clause into that so that was OK.

The Libyan government was trying to trade off access to oil for a Prisoner Transfer Agreement, which didn't mention Megrahi but was all about him anyway because there were no other Libyan prisoners in Britain. Tony Blair the UK PM was minded to agree to this, despite earlier (non-binding) agreements. At the start of the negotiations, he anticipated no problem with the Scottish government because Jack McConnell was First Minister and Tony was his boss. If Tony had said "send Megrahi back to Libya", Jack would have bought his ticket for him.

There was an election in Scotland in May 2007, and contrary to Tony's expectations, Jack lost. The SNP took power, and started making trouble about the PTA, insisting that Megrahi be specifically excluded from its provisions, because it recognised that assurances had been given to the US relatives about that.

Tony Blair, Gordon Brown and Jack Straw found that they had to consult the new Scottish government even though they hated their guts. Kenny argued hard for Megrahi to be excluded from the PTA, and at one point Jack Straw agreed. Then he went back on that, ans said he had to be included.

That is the context of that letter. Kenny MacAskill trying to prevent Libya from being given the legal power to apply to have Megrahi repatriated under a PTA. Acknowledging that Jack Straw has said it may be necessary to give Libya a bit of wiggle-room, and Kenny then saying he would really rather not, thank you.

What is it about this you find so hard to understand? The wording of the letter is completely clear.

Rolfe.

 

[Bunntamas]

Bunntamas, I hate to be so blunt, but every post you make on this topic, which is a complete derail by the way, demonstrates your utter lack of comprehension of the issues at a level which is so fundamental I'm close to despair.

Rolfe.

Okay, you're right. I'm wrong, don't know anything, never did.
See ya.

 

[Rolfe]

And if you want to nit pick, the spelling, per "legalese" is judgment, not judgement.

Either is accepted UK spelling, but the latter is favoured. Note, favoured. I don't pull you up for using US spelling.

Rolfe.

 

[INRM]

I personally think the CIA blew up Pan Am 103. There was some guy onboard who was with the Department of Defense, and he either witnessed something seriously bad happen during the 444-day embassy siege in Iran, or knew somebody who did.

There are people with the CIA who would be willing to blow an airliner full of passengers in order to take one person out and maintain plausible deniability (in this case the deniability is that you could blame it on a terrorist attack). Ironically, the CIA did find the electronic components that were responsible for allegedly detonating the bomb.

INRM

Hope I don't stop posting any time soon, or die mysteriously. I don't plan on flying on a plane anytime soon clearly