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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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I understand that the only reason Amanda Knox is now incarcerated is that she is a flight risk, according to the Perugian Judges.

Is it possible to have this reconsidered in light of Rocco Girlanda's book? Do you think his testimony would be influential in this regard? Is it possible for the defense to ask for Knox's release pending the appeal?
 
Just so that we can focus on what is really important. Could somebody just explain the significance in all this time talk?

Surely, it is clear that even Knox's mum understood what was going on and she's not the sharpest knife in the drawer, that's for certain!
 
"But I guess it was because I came home and the door was open, and then --"

So Knox is imagining why she would have made the phone call. The answer reveals that she was thinking of a phone call that was made from her flat, not sollecito's. She knew what was being discussed. She knew that they were talking of a call that was made just before the door was broken down.

Have I got this right? Some of the lengthy discussions here make even the simplest things sound confusing.
 
Well actually, treehorn, I am. And while I can't speak to Kevin Lowe's medical qualifications, I do find his analysis of the implications of Kercher's autopsy findings to be entirely compelling. Massei's contention that her entire duodenal contents "slipped" to the terminal ileum during the autopsy is far-fetched in the extreme. Had Dr. Lalli neglected to place any ligatures, and intentionally "milked" her entire small bowel hand over hand, it is doubtful that he could have completely evacuated her duodenum, jejunum and proximal ileum.

Interesting.

Of course, I have no way of knowing whether you really are a MD, but, for the sake of argument, I'll take you at your word.

FWIW, I have 2 brothers that are doctors (feel free to disbelieve me, if you wish) and, to put it mildly, they were...well, let's just say not as 'moved' by Lowe's argument as you were.

In their view, the medical factors that could explain the findings vis-à-vis stomach contents are, literally, too numerous for me to type: everything from the mood state of the victim (well-nigh unknowable to anyone but God) to any one of a huge number of yet-to-be diagnosed illnesses, possibly unknown even to Meredith.

As a medical doctor well-versed in the variability inherent in nearly every biological trait/ process that can be measured, how are you, of all people, able to endorse the 'doubt-free' assertions of Lowe? (In stark contrast to London John, he's absolutely averse to the use of qualifiers!)

Indeed, Lowe's penchant for the elision of the unknowns, the complexities and the uncertainties entailed in this matter led my brothers to suspect that Lowe has not so much as set foot in a cadaver lab, much less specialized in pathology or gastroenterology.

I just don't understand what you're seeing: We simply don't know whether, when, what and how much may have been consumed after Meredith parted with her friends (indeed, we have only notoriously inaccurate eye-witness testimony in respect of the food and beverages consumed before and during the movie).

No one (including you and Lowe) has seen the autopsy video.

Have you transcripts of trial testimony from the medical experts in respect of the stomach contents and the 'ligature issue'? Are you Italian? Were you in the courtroom?

Of course, you are aware that the translation of the 427 page judgment is not a complete document (it's devoid of all of the reports, sworn statements, exhibits, testimony, etc., referred to throughout the judgment).

We're simply missing far, far too much information to warrant the boldness with which Lowe has advanced his rather simplistic, nuance-free argument.

Alas, I'd be be interested to know why the placement of ligatures on the intestinal tract is considered 'standard practice' during autopsies if, as you assert, alimentary matter in the intestine is not easily displaced.

Mmmmmmm...
 
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Lone Wolf

Hello, I hope I'm in the right place.

There have been numerous references to a lone wolf in Perugia. I'm assuming that there have been regular sightings as he has been given the name Rudy.

If anyone spots this wolf to please contact WWF as they are a protected species? Your assistence in this matter would be very much appreciated.

Many thanks in advance.
 
Stomachs dont empty like drains. They just dont open up and let it all in the duodenum at once. When the food hits its stage of digestion in the stomach it moves to the next stage, regardless of the state of the rest of the meal. In other words it gradually empties.

And you know this how, exactly?
 
I understand that the only reason Amanda Knox is now incarcerated is that she is a flight risk, according to the Perugian Judges.

Is it possible to have this reconsidered in light of Rocco Girlanda's book? Do you think his testimony would be influential in this regard? Is it possible for the defense to ask for Knox's release pending the appeal?

Pre-trial incarceration was because of supposed flight risk.

After trial there are a few reasons for incarceration. Flight risk, length of sentence and type of crime, american consulate, because its such a high profile case the US might ask to look at the evidence before extradition, if Knox did flee the country(if I remember correctly) Italy couldn't extradite her until after she is officially convicted.(not for sure I think they have some kind of funny law where they dont actually have to attend the trial if they dont want to)
 
MK was killed by Magic!
...
How, when and why did AK and RS ... clean up only their own evidence?

They didn't quite manage to clean up "their own evidence":

RS left his DNA in MK's bedroom, on MK's bra clasp.

RS may also have left his bloody footprint on the bath mat.

AK left her DNA in a drop of MK's blood inside Filomena's private bedroom.

AK also left her DNA on the handle of one of the knives used to attack MK.


It's not "magic" - it's science, reason and common sense.
 
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Quote: "Stomachs dont empty like drains. They just dont open up and let it all in the duodenum at once. When the food hits its stage of digestion in the stomach it moves to the next stage, regardless of the state of the rest of the meal. In other words it gradually empties. "


I know - I've been around for all the KL T(lag) posts. But it is true that certain things such as the size of the meal, stress, activity, and even the contents of the meal (sugar, carbs, etc.) slow the process. Before Kevin jumps in to pontificate, I will state I do not beleive the ToD was as late as the prosecution claims it was. All I am stating is the size of Meredith's meal has been claimed here on JREF as "small to moderate" but in comparison to the oldest child mentioned in the letter referenced by Halides1, MK's meal could have been larger than "small to moderate".

Nope, it was small-to-moderate. The adult stomach in a non-obese person can typically expand to 1-1.5 litres capacity to contain a large meal (and the stomach also sends "full up" messages to the brain when its food intake approaches this capacity. 500ml is equivalent to a small-to-moderate sized meal of pizza and apple crumble, with the addition of stomach acid/enzyme solution.

In addition, the oldest child was only 9 years old (and the other two were 7 and 5 years old). Thus the oldest child's stomach was still of a juvenile size.
 
And you know this how, exactly?

Because I have a stomach?
or
Maybe because I have not only learned a few things from reading up on how the stomach works, but also because I've talked to doctors because I have GERD.
One of the wierdest symptoms I suffer from is empty stomach. When my stomach acts up and the heartburn starts, if my stomach is empty I get dizzy and nauseous. Doesnt matter what I eat/drink so long as my stomach isn't empty the nausea and dizziness go away. Happens about once a week. I'm not diabetic. I dont have an ulcer. I dont have any form of digestive cancer. I just eat or drink something when I get nauseous or dizzy and it goes away. Believe it or not this started after I quit smoking.
 
MK was killed by Magic!

... why did AK and RS enter the house to stage the break-in

It appears to be the case that they staged the break-in to point the 'finger of blame' at someone, anyone, that:

a) did not live at the cottage; or

b) did not have reason to visit with someone that lived at the cottage.



It wasn't an irrational plan, necessarily, but it was poorly executed.
 
Interesting.

Of course, I have no way of knowing whether you really are a MD, but, for the sake of argument, I'll take you at your word.

FWIW, I have 2 brothers that are doctors (feel free to disbelieve me, if you wish) and, to put it mildly, they were...well, let's just say not as 'moved' by Lowe's argument as you were.

In their view, the medical factors that could explain the findings vis-à-vis stomach contents are, literally, too numerous for me to type: everything from the mood state of the victim (well-nigh unknowable to anyone but God) to any one of a huge number of yet-to-be diagnosed illnesses, possibly unknown even to Meredith.

As a medical doctor well-versed in the variability inherent in nearly every biological trait/ process that can be measured, how are you, of all people, able to endorse the 'doubt-free' assertions of Lowe? (In stark contrast to London John, he's absolutely averse to the use of qualifiers!)

Indeed, Lowe's penchant for the elision of the unknowns, the complexities and the uncertainties entailed in this matter led my brothers to suspect that Lowe has not so much as set foot in a cadaver lab, much less specialized in pathology or gastroenterology.

I just don't understand what you're seeing: We simply don't know whether, when, what and how much may have been consumed after Meredith parted with her friends (indeed, we have only notoriously inaccurate eye-witness testimony in respect of the food and beverages consumed before and during the movie).

No one (including you and Lowe) has seen the autopsy video.

Have you transcripts of trial testimony from the medical experts in respect of the stomach contents and the 'ligature issue'? Are you Italian? Were you in the courtroom?

Of course, you are aware that the translation of the 427 page judgment is not a complete document (it's devoid of all of the reports, sworn statements, exhibits, testimony, etc., referred to throughout the judgment).

We're simply missing far, far too much information to warrant the boldness with which Lowe has advanced his rather simplistic, nuance-free argument.

Alas, I'd be be interested to know why the placement of ligatures on the intestinal tract is considered 'standard practice' during autopsies if, as you assert, alimentary matter in the intestine is not easily displaced.

Mmmmmmm...

Ah...we're back to the trusty old fallback-in-case-of-emergency argument: "Well, none of us was there and we're working with incomplete information and the Massei Report had loads of important stuff missing and all this stuff is really imprecise anyhow and and and....." :rolleyes:
 
It appears to be the case that they staged the break-in to point the 'finger of blame' at someone, anyone, that:

a) did not live at the cottage; or

b) did not have reason to visit with someone that lived at the cottage.



It wasn't an irrational plan, necessarily, but it was poorly executed.

What did the prosecution enter into evidence that proved a Staged Break In?

Also how did Guede know which window was broken when he couldn't have possibly been there for the staged break in?
 
Nope, it was small-to-moderate. The adult stomach in a non-obese person can typically expand to 1-1.5 litres capacity to contain a large meal (and the stomach also sends "full up" messages to the brain when its food intake approaches this capacity. 500ml is equivalent to a small-to-moderate sized meal of pizza and apple crumble, with the addition of stomach acid/enzyme solution.

In addition, the oldest child was only 9 years old (and the other two were 7 and 5 years old). Thus the oldest child's stomach was still of a juvenile size.

Can you explain why people are relying on qualitative rather than quantitative terms in respect of meal sizes?

"Small" relative to what, exactly?

Surely meals cannot be characterized as, say, "small" irrespective of the size (or sex) of the subject.
 
I'm intrigued by the assertion (by most people opposed to our revisitation of the stomach/intestine evidence) that medical knowledge is only available (and comprehensible) by those within the medical profession. Were we conducting this debate in 1725 in a coffee house in the City of London, I'd wholeheartedly agree this to be the case. But we're conducting this debate online in 2010, at a time when practically all medical knowledge is available for us mere mortals to inspect and analyse.

But, by the way, many thanks to Diastole for another confirmation from within the medical community. I would be very, very interested to hear directly from a medical professional contradicting what you and we have been asserting...
 
Can you explain why people are relying on qualitative rather than quantitative terms in respect of meal sizes?

"Small" relative to what, exactly?

Surely meals cannot be characterized as, say, "small" irrespective of the size (or sex) of the subject.

Err....we're not. The stomach contents were 500ml. That sounds pretty quantitative to me. The qualitative "small-to-moderate meal" moniker is based upon that quantitative certainty (coupled with the eyewitness testimony of her friends).
 
Ah...we're back to the trusty old fallback-in-case-of-emergency argument: "Well, none of us was there and we're working with incomplete information and the Massei Report had loads of important stuff missing and all this stuff is really imprecise anyhow and and and....." :rolleyes:

"emergency"?

I feel no urgent/ emergent 'need' to have any particular argument prevail.

I'm interested only in the truth simpliciter - whatever it may be.

I think it would be fair to characterize my post as underscoring the need to remember that we do not have access to all of the information that was made available to the triers of fact.

(Not that I think you are unaware of this state of affairs. Far from it.)
 
They didn't quite manage to clean up "their own evidence":

RS left his DNA in MK's bedroom, on MK's bra clasp.

Thus his DNA was found on the bra clasp, which was found in her room some forty days later? The bra was cut from her body, the killer wouldn't have had to touch the clasp anyway. How is this proof he was in her room?

RS may also have left his bloody footprint on the bath mat.

Doesn't it make more sense that it's Rudy's? If not, where did all the rest of Raffaele's footprints go?

AK left her DNA in a drop of MK's blood inside Filomena's private bedroom.

She lived there, what does that have to do with the murder anyway?

AK also left her DNA on the handle of one of the knives used to attack MK.

What makes you think the knife was used to attack Meredith?

It's not "magic" - it's science, reason and common sense.

"In the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case, we have a conflict between an implausibly small amount of highly suspect “evidence” that is alleged to be at the scene vs. a vast amount of missing evidence that would have HAD to be at the scene if Amanda and Raffaele had participated at all, and even more so if they had participated in the way the prosecutors allege. While the prosecution’s evidence is scant, contrived and likely non-existent; the mountain of missing evidence is absolutely overwhelming and compelling. And they both can’t be right because they are mutually exclusive."

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/FBI2.html

That's a retired FBI agent.

Here's some other credentialed people who spoke out against the dubious items you mentioned. Nine signed an open letter:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18215-knox-murder-trial-evidence-flawed-say-dna-experts.html
 
Thus his DNA was found on the bra clasp, which was found in her room some forty days later? The bra was cut from her body, the killer wouldn't have had to touch the clasp anyway. How is this proof he was in her room?
Possibly Sollecito's DNA on the clasp. There where dna samples from 5 individuals on it and they where unable to build a complete profile of Sollecito. Matter of fact they barely had enough to get a partial profile.


Doesn't it make more sense that it's Rudy's? If not, where did all the rest of Raffaele's footprints go?
Every guilter says its Sollecito's and every person thats Pro Sollecito believes it resembles Guede's not Sollecito. Good Luck making a guilter believe that footprint belongs to Guede. Guilters dont believe its even Possible for guede to have committed this crime alone.


Though I was just thinking. Why wouldn't Guede give up the persons name who he bought the computer from that was supposedly stolen by someone else. Guilters claim there is no proof he committed that break in. After all, doesn't it make more sense to give up the persons name who committed a robery exactly like the supposed fake break in at the apartment. Unless of course your the one that robbed that office.
 
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