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Public Education is a Socialist Monopoly

JonathanQuick

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Oct 18, 2010
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"Public education is a socialist monopoly, a real one." - Milton Friedman

There is no correlation between educational spending and educational achievement. None. The pretense that more money will "solve" the problem has been argued by teachers' unions for decades, utterly without success.

It is truly shameful.

Albert Shanker said "When kids start paying union dues, I'll start representing them."

Shanker was the president of the American Federation of Teachers for years.
 
"Public education is a socialist monopoly, a real one." - Milton Friedman

There is no correlation between educational spending and educational achievement. None. The pretense that more money will "solve" the problem has been argued by teachers' unions for decades, utterly without success.

It is truly shameful.

Albert Shanker said "When kids start paying union dues, I'll start representing them."

Shanker was the president of the American Federation of Teachers for years.

Are you saying that:

1. Giving money to schools is a bad idea.

or

2. Schools are not using money correctly.

or

3. People are advocating an increase in funding over other possible solutions.
 
I think he's opposed to public education in general. Because poor people shouldn't have access to such a luxury item. or something.
 
"Public education is a socialist monopoly, a real one." - Milton Friedman

There is no correlation between educational spending and educational achievement. None. The pretense that more money will "solve" the problem has been argued by teachers' unions for decades, utterly without success.

It is truly shameful.

Albert Shanker said "When kids start paying union dues, I'll start representing them."

Shanker was the president of the American Federation of Teachers for years.

So, what is your alternative for educating our youth?
 
"Public education is a socialist monopoly, a real one." - Milton Friedman

Depending on your definitions of "public", "socialist", and "monopoly", this statement is either false, or true but a tautology.

If you define "public education" to mean "government-run education" and "socialist" also as "government-run", then this is clearly true, but a tautology: Yes, all government-run schools are government-run. The government has a monopoly by definition. It's like left-handed people having a monopoly on being left-handed.

If by "public education" you mean a more general definition, then the existence and legality of private (i.e. not government-run) schools clearly illustrates that there is no government monopoly on such ventures.

There is no correlation between educational spending and educational achievement. None.

I don't know whether this statement is true or not. It certainly wouldn't surprise me if it were true, if we define "educational spending" as government spending (e.g. as raised by taxes).

What would surprise me is if there were no correlation between school district socio-economic status and educational achievement.

I remember when I was young, the area I lived in (suburban L.A.) had a number of different school districts, as well as a wide spread in socio-economic status. In our area, the kids in the wealthier school districts generally went to college, and the kids from the poorer school districts generally didn't.

Two possible factors that may explain this are as follows:

1) Expectation. In the more well-off school districts (in one of which I was fortunate enough to grow up), it was simply assumed (by parents and peers) that one was going to college. Getting into college was not seen as an achievement, but simply as the normal state of affairs. Not getting into college, on the other hand, was seen as a great failure. In the poorer school districts, it was the other way around: Going to college was seen as a great achievement, whereas not going was the regular state of affairs. This makes sense in a circular way: The better off the parents, the greater the probability that they themselves went to college, and thus the greater the probability that they'd expect their offspring to go.

2) Private funding of public schools. In our (well-off) school district, a large part of the schools' funding came from non-government sources: Bake sales, school funding drives, private donations in the form of no-strings cash or as money for a specific project (e.g. a building or playground), etc. This private funding was invariably local, generally given by the parents of the students themselves. I would expect such private funding to be greatly reduced in poorer districts. Any study of correlations between educational spending would have to be careful to control for this, and not just take into account direct tax-generated government outlay.

The pretense that more money will "solve" the problem has been argued by teachers' unions for decades, utterly without success.

Money may or may not "solve" the problem, depending on how you define the problem. As I've said above, if the problem is lack of educational achievement, then it would not surprise me if money does not solve the problem. I don't know.

But there are other problems. I give you the following, admittedly anecdotal, true story to illustrate what I mean:

When I lived in Oakland, CA a few years ago, I knew a woman who was an elementary school teacher in an Oakland school. The school had so little money that there was literally no money for supplies for the teachers, except for the following: Each teacher was given one number 2 pencil for each student for each year. That's it. No paper. No pens. No erasers. No paint. No books. Everything else she needed to run a first grade class for a full year had to come out of her own meager salary.

Could her "problem" have been solved with more money? Well... yes. By definition.
 
When I lived in Oakland, CA a few years ago, I knew a woman who was an elementary school teacher in an Oakland school. The school had so little money that there was literally no money for supplies for the teachers, except for the following: Each teacher was given one number 2 pencil for each student for each year. That's it. No paper. No pens. No erasers. No paint. No books. Everything else she needed to run a first grade class for a full year had to come out of her own meager salary.

Could her "problem" have been solved with more money? Well... yes. By definition.

Those stories just break my heart and are far too common. Often, like with the Detroit schools near where I grew up, there is corruption on some level which is funneling funds away from where they are really needed. So the teachers cry that they need more money, and they are right, but everyone looks at the amount of money being sent to the schools and thinks they are being greedy.

Personally, I think socialized education is essential for producing the educated workforce necessary to a healthy modern capitalist system. Yes, I said it, a socialist system is necessary to strengthen a capitalist system. The world is rarely black and white.
 
No, you can't solve our country's education problem simply by throwing money at it, but that doesn't mean more money isn't needed. It is needed.

In general, and of course there are exceptions, the classroom sizes are growing too large for proper student-teacher interaction. Schools lack the funding to adequately provide both supplies and educational resources to the growing student population. Couple that with curious budget choices in many cases and you run into trouble pretty quickly.

This isn't to say you cannot get a great education from a public school, even an extremely poor one. You could throw hundreds of millions of dollars per student, per year, and that's not going to guarantee a good education. As Vorticity said, cultural expectations play an extremely important role, maybe even moreso than funding. You can see examples of this both in our country, and all over the world.

A proper education should be a basic human right, but I realize that's just wishful thinking.
 
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Friedman is probably struck off the OPer's quote list now, disqualified for not having eaten enough babies.

Well, that's the problem.

Like most of today's right-wing activists, he has a quote list, not a reading list.

It's astonishing how much of their lame quote-spam evaporates when you look at the quoted authors in context.

For that matter, it's astonishing how much of their lame link-spam actually contradicts the posts in which the spam is presented. It's almost as though they don't bother to read what they forward....
 
Are you saying that:

1. Giving money to schools is a bad idea.

or

2. Schools are not using money correctly.

or

3. People are advocating an increase in funding over other possible solutions.

1. We have TRIED increasing the funding in CURRENT DOLLARS for decades. All it has gotten us is endless demands for MORE MONEY. Money has not solved any problem yet, and so naturally teachers' unions promise that THIS TIME, THIS TIME it will! How gullible can people be.

2. No, schools are NOT using money correctly. Their administrative staffs are bloated. They keep incompetent teachers. And they pay them too much. At my district, teachers top out at over $95,000 for 9 months work.
Sickening, particularly when teachers graduate in the bottom third of their college classes, on average.

3. People don't advocate more money so much as teachers' unions do.
Now these unions have brainwashed parents and kids into standing on the corners for them, demanding higher funding and of course higher taxes to pay for it.
 
Goodness. Who'd have thunk that a conservatard quote-mine would get something wrong.

Spoken like a true liberal. I present the ideas of well-known figures, one of whom was a Nobel Laureate, and the other president of a teachers' union, and you call me a "conservatard."

How enlightened of you. How utterly brilliant.
Congratulations. You have learned your liberal lessons
only too well.

What next, call me a "fascist" and a "Nazi"?

What is very telling is that not one of your friends has admonished you for your hatefulness and violation of the rules of this forum. It is SUPPOSED to consist of intelligent discussions, not petty name-calling, like "conservatard."
 
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Do you have a checklist of talking points you're going through?

I made precisely two points before stooping to address the childish name-calling of your pal and fellow liberal, who called me a "conservatard."

Is that too many for you to follow?

If you'd like to change the subject, and discuss the educational theme of your choice, I'm your huckleberry.

It's interesting that you jump on ME, pretending that I am too stupid to present a coherent argument on my own, but you had absolutely no problem with your pal calling ME a "conservatard."

Name-calling is the sine qua non of liberal argumentation.
So too are lies.
 
There is no correlation between educational spending and educational achievement. None.

Does this mean if you spent literally no money on a school, and had no teachers, buildings, books etc - just made the kids stand in a field for 7 years or something - they would achieve the same exam results as kids who had been through 7 years of public education?

I find that hard to believe.
 
"Public education is a socialist monopoly, a real one." - Milton Friedman

There is no correlation between educational spending and educational achievement. None. The pretense that more money will "solve" the problem has been argued by teachers' unions for decades, utterly without success.

It is truly shameful.

Albert Shanker said "When kids start paying union dues, I'll start representing them."

Shanker was the president of the American Federation of Teachers for years.


What do you propose as a solution?
 
It's only "SOCIALISM OMGOMGOMGOMGOMG COMMIES!" if it's not directly benefiting you.

duhhh
 
I'm trying to figure out if you've got some sort of point or if this is just empty ideological bellyaching. I'm guessing the latter. You propose no solutions to what I assume is your tacit assertions that we spend too much on education and get too little in return. Unless you've got something relevant to say, I'm having trouble taking you seriously.
 

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