Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Katody Matrass]

Strange. I'm watching Discovery Channel, and there's a programme on called "Secrets of Interrogation". It just showed a classic false confession in which the suspect broke down under fierce accusatory questioning and admitted to being an accessory to murder (together with details of the crime). Only, he was later found to have been in a different continent at the time! Fortunately, the interrogation was videotaped.

And here is a clip of that portion of the programme. It bears viewing:

http://www.yourdiscovery.com/video/secrets-of-interrogation-admission-of-guilt/

I think it is, as they say, germane to the Knox situation.......

Very good!

BTW posting video links is a great idea, here's something also on topic - Saul Kassin on false confessions

Near the end is the most eye opening part - "confession corrupts the evidence".


good night

 

[katy_did]

That's nice. The fact is that police typically induce them thinking that they are genuine confessions, and the police then take a great deal of persuading otherwise (if indeed they can ever be persuaded otherwise at all).

Took the words out of my mouth, Kevin (for some reason, whenever I use that phrase lately I get a freaky literal image. Anyway).

Coerced confessions are generally the result of poor or manipulative interrogation techniques, with the police genuinely believing they've got the right suspect and a truthful confession; they're not usually trying to 'fit up' the suspect.

 

[LondonJohn]

I thought the police induced an "internalized false confession", that sounds like being "fitted up" to me.

a) That was not admissible in court;

b) the police almost certainly believed that Knox was involved, and that their stellar interrogation techniques had merely elicited the truth (viz. Police Chief De Felice's astonishing declaration the following day);

c) This therefore does not meet the criteria of being "fitted up" - which necessitates knowledge of the non-culpability of the suspect.

d) The original reference, in any case, was to the "judge and jury" (sic) as being the ones involved in the "fitting up".

Anything else?

 

[LondonJohn]

Took the words out of my mouth, Kevin (for some reason, whenever I use that phrase lately I get a freaky literal image. Anyway).

Coerced confessions are generally the result of poor or manipulative interrogation techniques, with the police genuinely believing they've got the right suspect and a truthful confession; they're not usually trying to 'fit up' the suspect.

I merely get an unpleasant image of Meatloaf's face....

Have you watched that video clip I posted a few minutes ago? It's very interesting.

 

[tsig]

I have never been able to document from a reliable source the claim that a shorter sentence was the result of a fast-track trial, but I have heard private comments that challenged this notion. I am also under the impression that there may have been two separate reductions of his sentence.

I do not know the answer about the defense. I think tunnel-vision may be part of the story for not testing the stain originally. I think that the prosecution owes the Italian people an explanation for why they did not appeal Rudy's sentence.

Here you go:

Fast-track trial

The giudizio abbreviato (fast-track trial, literally abbreviated proceeding)[24] consists, basically, of a proceeding where the trial phase is absent.

It is the Judge of the Preliminary Hearing who, according to the evidence gathered, during the preliminary investigations by the prosecutor and by the lawyer during the defensive investigations, if there were any, convicts or acquits the defendant.

Since this is a reduction of the defendant's rights (he basically gives up his right to presenting new evidence and to be tried by a Judge of the Trial), it must be he who asks that the Judge of the Preliminary Hearing hand down a judgement over him.

The defendant is rewarded with a reduction on the sentence. The law states that this reduction is one third. If the crime was punishable by life imprisonment, the defendant will be sentenced to thirty years.

Both the defendant and the prosecutor can appeal the judgement before the Court of Appeals.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Code_of_Criminal_Procedure

 

[Kestrel]

If Amanda had participated in the murder as the prosecution claimed, the clothes and shoes she wore at the time would have been covered in blood. So where did she dispose of this evidence?

There have been several false claims made or leaked to the press. But Amanda's clothes were not in the washing machine. The story of her visiting a cleaners was bogus. The missing sweatshirt was sitting in plain sight on Amanda's bed. The story of finding her shoe prints in the murder room wasn't true. And none of Amanda's clothes or shoes seem to be missing.

The same problem applies to Raffaele. What happened to his blood soaked clothes and shoes? Also what happened to whatever equipment these two suspects used in the alleged cleanup?

 

[Kaosium]

Now posters on either side of the debate are happy to hold any position they wish but it may be interseting to see how widespread the CT /Fit Up belief is.

What I think new posters should do is enter Giuliano Mignini into google and read for about an hour from as many sources as they can find. I couldn't believe it at first either, I thought this must be an obscene exaggeration of Knox supporters. However I kept reading, and eventually it became obvious:

This whole debacle can be laid at the feet of Giuliano Mignini. What was an obvious break-in gone bad became this whole disgusting ordeal because of him.

 

[Dan O.]

Guede says that he was covered in blood when he arrived back at his apartment, yet not a speck of Meredith's blood was ever found in his apartment. I'd say that Guede was very probably lying, wouldn't you?

Not necessarily. By the time he gets back to his apartment, the blood on his pants would have dried enough so it wouldn't be dripping and if he was wearing gloves he wouldn't leave traces from his hands until he got into his bathroom to properly wash up. Even blood on shoes from steping in a pool of blood will wear off after several blocks to the point where it cannot be traced even with Luminal.

 

[act1roson]

So Amanda was freaking out so much as to where Meredith was that she was banging on the door, yelling her name, tried looking over a window to see into the room and looking through the keyhole, yet when native speaking Italians arrived she backed off? Are you kidding me? Her boyfriend was a native speaker.

Amanda saw blood droplets in her bathroom and her front door open.

She wrote that she didn't suspect a murder at that time. I believe she wrote that she thought a roommate may have cut themselves.

That may have been her level of anxiety - someone's hurt and I want to find out what's going on. Period.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

This is a skeptics forum. We demand evidence for statements made. Provide the evidence for what you post or retract it. It's that simple.

It's my understanding that Filomena and Laura worked full time.

Who would have said any clothing was missing?

You have no idea how much clothing she had.

I'm not familiar with this. Cite please.

Frank reported on this:

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2008/03/we-were-joking.html

Last Friday there was a get-together at the house of horrors.
All of the sudden the lawyers got a call from the police and had to go there. Some things had to be seized, which is why the presence of the parties was necessary.

Among the items seized: Meredith's purse, Meredith's guitar, Amanda's guitar, the 2 Harry Potter books, a hair-dryer, a little pot of vaseline, a sweatshirt, etc. It seems that all of this seized stuff will be tested in light of some clues provided by a witness.

The purse was not the leather one we see on the bed but a cloth purse with Meredith's i-pod and make-up kit still inside. It seems that it was blood stained. Everything will be analyzed. Blood, fingerprints, more hair, etc.

The description given by police of the sweatshirt corresponds to the one Amanda was wearing the night of the crime, which police initially said had disappeared. So we learned that that sweatshirt was inside the house after all.


This discovery, however, came too late for the Supreme Court, which included the sweatshirt in its roster of evidence against Amanda:

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2008/04/amanda-q-and-with-supreme-court.html

This particular court report was translated into English and I have it. Here is an excerpt:

3. The Court found grave indications of culpability based on the evidence from Investigation; this evidence consisted of the following elements:

a) Results presented by the coroner (medico-legale); b.) Discovery of a knife w. dimensions: 14cm handle and 17cm blade, recovered inside a kitchen drawer in the residence of Sollecito, upon which were found: traces of DNA on the handle pertaining to Knox and on the blade, pertaining to that of the victim. c.) Statements made by Filomena Romanelli and Laura Mezzetti, roommates of the victim, both concurred that the knife recovered was not one which was allocated to the apartment, and they also indicated that the day of the event, Knox was wearing a sweatshirt that was never recovered after the fact.

 

[platonov]

Originally Posted by platonov

Now posters on either side of the debate are happy to hold any position they wish but it may be interseting to see how widespread the CT /Fit Up belief is.

What I think new posters should do is enter Giuliano Mignini into google and read for about an hour from as many sources as they can find. I couldn't believe it at first either, I thought this must be an obscene exaggeration of Knox supporters. However I kept reading, and eventually it became obvious:

This whole debacle can be laid at the feet of Giuliano Mignini. What was an obvious break-in gone bad became this whole disgusting ordeal because of him.

Kaosium

You have been frank on your position and that is laudable - the fact that the 'internalized false confession' had been induced before Mignini arrived on the scene implies that the cops are also involved so its not his work alone.
But any good conspiracy theory can be easily expanded so the cops can be added to mix to overcome that problem.

On conspiracies generally I await Charlie Wilkes view on the fit-up - I hope I haven misunderstood him, if so clarification would be welcome. I'm unsure of where Halides1 stands also.

Also on my A B C questions [ perhaps C could be ignored] re the bathmat theory a response from Kevin Lowe and London John would be appreciated. I accept you don't place much faith in the appeal but other views are worthwhile and they have expended some effort on this issue.

.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

big toe

To all,

Here is a bit more from Raffaele’s appeal on the big toe: “The images indicated by the Court (table referred to page 51 of report Prof. Vinci) actually provide the feedback of the exact opposite of what you would support. Indeed, the document attesting that he would not consider the "parcel" as actually being part of the big track, it would take form a completely abnormal (a very large big toe from the top and almost with a strange bulge on the right side) that is geometrically would present symmetrically opposed the Raffaele of the big track.»

My disagreement with SomeAlibi is over two points. First SA argued that the print is ruled out to be Guede's, so who else could have made it? I think that the big toe cannot possibly be Sollecito's, so the question of who made it is not relevant to Sollecito's guilt. Second, SA took what the prosecution and Massie said as the last word, in effect that Massei has settled the issue. I might grant this point of view considerable weight if the appeal did not address the bath mat footprint; but quite the contrary, the appeal treats it at length, as I indicated previously.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Originally Posted by platonov

Now posters on either side of the debate are happy to hold any position they wish but it may be interseting to see how widespread the CT /Fit Up belief is.




Kaosium

You have been frank on your position and that is laudable - the fact that the 'internalized false confession' had been induced before Mignini arrived on the scene implies that the cops are also involved so its not his work alone.
But any good conspiracy theory can be easily expanded so the cops can be added to mix to overcome that problem.

On conspiracies generally I await Charlie Wilkes view on the fit-up - I hope I haven misunderstood him, if so clarification would be welcome. I'm unsure of where Halides1 stands also.

Also on my A B C questions [ perhaps C could be ignored] re the bathmat theory a response from Kevin Lowe and London John would be appreciated. I accept you don't place much faith in the appeal but other views are worthwhile and they heve expended some effort on this issue.

.

You haven't misunderstood me. This whole case is a giant hoax. If you think that doesn't happen, read about the Dreyfus Affair. People at the highest ranks of the French military engaged in a conspiracy that involved counterfeiting documents and covering for the person who actually committed the crime in question. Why would they go to such elaborate lengths to railroad an innocent man and conceal the activities of a genuine traitor? Because otherwise they would have to admit they had made a mistake.

Read about what happened to Kelly Michaels in New Jersey. A team of lawyers and social workers traumatized a dozen or more toddlers to trump up a phony sex abuse case. The treachery and malfeasance in that case beggars belief - but it really happened. It happens a lot, all over the world.

 

[platonov]

You haven't misunderstood me. This whole case is a giant hoax. If you think that doesn't happen, read about the Dreyfus Affair. People at the highest ranks of the French military engaged in a conspiracy that involved counterfeiting documents and covering for the person who actually committed the crime in question. Why would they go to such elaborate lengths to railroad an innocent man and conceal the activities of a genuine traitor? Because otherwise they would have to admit they had made a mistake.

Read about what happened to Kelly Michaels in New Jersey. A team of lawyers and social workers traumatized a dozen or more toddlers to trump up a phony sex abuse case. The treachery and malfeasance in that case beggars belief - but it really happened. It happens a lot, all over the world.

The clarification is welcome - I don't wish to misrepresent anyone.

I'm familar (from history) with the Dreyfus affair (who isn't) - it could be said to have had some positive outcomes - but I fail to see the relevance to this case even supposing the conspiracy theory is true.
With all due respect the term hyperbole doesn't begin to do justice to the comparison.

Nor are the 80/90's satanic / group child abuse cases relevant if that what the NJ case is.

This is a murder case with obvious media interest/exploitation and certain overtones but that's all - these comparisons don't help your case.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

tunnel vision

Originally Posted by platonov

Now posters on either side of the debate are happy to hold any position they wish but it may be interseting to see how widespread the CT /Fit Up belief is.




Kaosium

You have been frank on your position and that is laudable - the fact that the 'internalized false confession' had been induced before Mignini arrived on the scene implies that the cops are also involved so its not his work alone.
But any good conspiracy theory can be easily expanded so the cops can be added to mix to overcome that problem.

I resist the label of conspiracy theory as being inappropriate to this case for reasons I have already given.

I have no reason to believe anything other than that Dr. Giobbi believes in his investigative approach, however discredited I think it is. I think it is likely that some people in the police department have doubts but don't want to make waves. Consider the film "The Thin Blue Line." There is one Vidor, TX policeman who clearly knows that Randall Adams is not the shooter and David Harris is. Yet even he does not come out and say so on camera, he just implies it.

 

[Kaosium]

Originally Posted by platonov
Kaosium

You have been frank on your position and that is laudable - the fact that the 'internalized false confession' had been induced before Mignini arrived on the scene implies that the cops are also involved so its not his work alone.
But any good conspiracy theory can be easily expanded so the cops can be added to mix to overcome that problem.

Just as Mignini expanded his theory to include Raffaele and Amanda when his first intended victim had an ironclad alibi. At least he finally got Rudy right, though seeing as he'd fled the country he must have been suspicious. The cops were just following Mignini's lead, he's the one who wanted to finger Lumbada, that's how Amanda got involved, wasn't it? They put the screws to her hoping to get an accusation, and she broke down. Did you watch that video John posted above? This is not science fiction we're talking about. Good cops in every country get 'confessions' from interrogation procedures all the time. All they got out of Amanda was a confused account of something she obviously wasn't sure of. Not much to go on, and at least one of them should have taken into account she was probably traumatized by the murder, after all a girl she knew had been killed in her own home.

 

[Kaosium]

The clarification is welcome - I don't wish to misrepresent anyone.

I'm familar (from history) with the Dreyfus affair (who isn't) - it could be said to have had some positive outcomes - but I fail to see the relevance to this case even supposing the conspiracy theory is true.
With all due respect the term hyperbole doesn't begin to do justice to the comparison.

We are only at the end of the beginning of this affair, odds are Amanda and Raffaele will be freed before it comes to that. Their innocence is far easier to ascertain in this day and age than Dreyfus' was, and far more obvious to the casual observer, thus chances are it won't go much further.

 

[colonelhall]

Kaosium: "Their innocence is far easier to ascertain in this day and age than Dreyfus' was, and far more obvious to the casual observer, thus chances are it won't go much further."

Thanks for this Kaosium. I thought that the appeal would be judged by people who are acquainted with the facts of the case.

Now I understand that "casual observers" are to make a difference. This must be why there is so much shaky opinion posted on this site. Those "casual observers" must have been really convinced of their innocence at one stage. Unfortunately for poor Raff and Mandy, Some Alibi comes along and puts them right.

 

[katy_did]

To all,

Here is a bit more from Raffaele’s appeal on the big toe: “The images indicated by the Court (table referred to page 51 of report Prof. Vinci) actually provide the feedback of the exact opposite of what you would support. Indeed, the document attesting that he would not consider the "parcel" as actually being part of the big track, it would take form a completely abnormal (a very large big toe from the top and almost with a strange bulge on the right side) that is geometrically would present symmetrically opposed the Raffaele of the big track.»

My disagreement with SomeAlibi is over two points. First SA argued that the print is ruled out to be Guede's, so who else could have made it? I think that the big toe cannot possibly be Sollecito's, so the question of who made it is not relevant to Sollecito's guilt. Second, SA took what the prosecution and Massie said as the last word, in effect that Massei has settled the issue. I might grant this point of view considerable weight if the appeal did not address the bath mat footprint; but quite the contrary, the appeal treats it at length, as I indicated previously.

Have you seen this post on PMF, Chris? Piktor seems to have inadvertently shown that the print matches Guede much better than Sollecito, though I'm not quite sure that was his/her intention, LOL. The outline of the big toe is a much closer match for Guede, while the mark on the mat extends above and below Sollecito's print. That would be even clearer if Piktor hadn't drawn a random blob under RS's big toe which isn't there on the actual footprint (I think this is to accommodate the arrow Rinaldi's drawn), which would have shown that the clear break between his toe and forefoot isn't there on the bathmat print. The mark the defence argued was the second toe is outside the line of both prints, thus supporting their argument. I don't see how it could possibly be from the big toe, looking at piktor's diagram; as the defence say, it would make it completely abnormally shaped. The curve of the instep is closer to the shape of Guede's foot, while the left side of Sollecito's foot doesn't match either (it bulges out too much, instead of extending straight down as on the bathmat print and on Guede's foot). Also notice just how far outside the actual width of the big toe print Rinaldi had to measure to get his 'millimetre-precise' measurement.

Surprisingly little comment about it on that forum.

 

[Trigood]

As I understand it, a clean-up of bare footprints would look like smears on top of footprints, not perfectly delineated 'hidden' footprints. In fact, any blood substance cleaned up and then luminoled (is that a word?!) clearly shows the wiping streaks which were not present with the revealed footprints at the scene.

I'm not really sure about this. Fact is, I'm not a luminol expert.

So, PDiG, I'll go back to your original question:

Forgive me if this is a dumb question but if the print is Rafaelle's and the rest of them were cleaned up, wouldn't we see different luminol evidence in the bathroom. I saw a picture somewhere showing a bloody scene, after being cleaned up, and after the application of luminol and you could see exactly where it had all been wiped up.

Again, I'm not sure. First, I'm not sure if the bathroom was even "luminoled" (word?). However, I know the hall was, and the print of Amanda's outside Meredith's door was, I think, the only one found between Meredith's room and the bathroom.

However, there might be a reasonable explanation. Raff may have cleaned his prints up immediately after coming out of the shower. Perhaps he did such a bang-up job that luminol could not expose them. Tile is not very absorbent, after all.

The other prints (that did show up on luminol) may have been the result of traces of blood/water mixture still on the perps' feet as they blithely walked around, not realizing that a small amount of blood still clung to their soles. Thus, those prints were never "cleaned up," because the perps never even knew they were there.

Just mho. Like I say, I'm not a luminol expert.