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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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IF Comodi was trying to stitch Amanda and Raffaele up she would have known that those records existed and that it was a "tactic" that could very badly backfire. Therefore there's not a lot of sense in attempting that "tactic" which tends to defeat the point you're trying to make.

Well she could always excuse and say she was "imprecise", couldn't she? :)

She was obviously trying to impress the jury and the media and you don't need to be truthful to do that. She succeeded as the talking point of "Amanda called before anything had happened" circulates in the echochamber since then and also found it's way into the motivation.
 
Just to make sure we don't misquote what SA said before about Quintavalle's reliability and veracity, here it is:

"I personally think Quintavalle is the sort of witness you have to put down to court-experience. The reasons for him being credible are argued, the reasons for him not being credible are argued. In real life criminal trials, a huge amount of the jury's feel about a witness is as to how they come across. Quintavalle is a classic example of this and I think it's impossible to judge outside of that context. I do think that arguing the toss about Quintavalle is one of the less productive online conversations about this case: either side could be true - it's up the jury about who they believe."

Right, I'm off to "Late-night Groceries" before it closes to get some milk for tomorrow morning. Tomorrow I will be visiting "Clothes" to buy some clothes, but I look forward to continuing the debate at some time during the day.
 
Sorry if I missed it, but who established that Battistelli was lying on the stand? Thanks for the evidence/cite in advance.


Actually, you did. Do I need to replay the history of that sub-thread for you? Or are you just nitpicking a detail that witnesses in Italian courts don't take the stand when they testify but simply stand in front of a podium??
 
She was: It's charge B of the indictment for which she received 3 months imprisonment:

(Massei)

(B) with the criminal offence to which articles 110 of the Criminal Code and 4 Statutes number 110 of 1975 apply, for having, in complicity amongst themselves, carried out of the residence of SOLLECITO, without justified reason, a large knife of point and blade comprising in total a length of 31 cm (seized at SOLLECITO’s on November 6, 2007, Exhibit 36)

(sentencing)

"In relation to the fact that in addition to the said crimes Amanda Knox is also answerable for the crime of calunnia, she must be condemned to a total punishment of 26 years of imprisonment (base penalty 24 years; increased to 24 years and 6 months for the simulation [staging]; to 24 years and 9 months for carrying the knife; to 25 years for theft and increased, finally, by a further year for calunnia).

Isn't it funny what a Rube Goldberg contraption you need to construct to support that weird ritual or not drunken drug fueled orgy killing theory :)
 
You didn't make a point, what you said was (quote) "So lying in Court is indeed an acceptable tactic to use as a lawyer". Which is self-evidently rather snipey and silly. I've closed Quintavalle above as a topic which is that I support the views expressed here by Fulcanelli and others. You may disagree with it, as you disagree with everything else I believe, but that's my position.

Clearly then, I misunderstood your argument, probably because you didn't address any of the points I made (as indeed, you've failed to do again). Calling someone "snipey and silly" isn't particularly conducive to a discussion no matter what post you're replying to.

I said nothing about Quintavalle, but was asking about Comodi. Perhaps you're mixing me up with someone else.
 
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The claims that AK and RS were using hard drugs was invented out of thin air. It's needed because the official motivation in the Massei Report (Reefer Madness, vampire comics and porn) is clearly nonsense.

Those that believe that Satan walks the Earth don't care about the lack of motive. Demonic possession is all the explanation they need. But the rest of us need a rational motive, or clear evidence of severe mental illness to explain why two young college students who recently fell in love would suddenly decide to murder a flatmate.


So with reference to the porn, which you include as "nonsense", you are saying that the director of Raffaele's ONAOSI college made up his testimony concerning the porn including bestiality porn which was found on his computer and the active monitoring he was put under thereafter is made up?

The testimony was given in court:

"Raffaele Sollecito moved to Perugia in 2002 from his region, Giovinazzo, after which in 2002 obtained his graduation diploma. He enrolled at the faculty of informatics and chose Perugia because of the presence in the city of the ONAOSI college (see statements by the father, Francesco Sollecito, page 15, hearing19.6.2009) where he was boarding from 2003 to 2005. He was "taciturn, introverted, shy.... watched many films‛ and educators at the boy’s ONAOSI college were shocked by a film ‚very much hard-core ... where there were scenes of sex with animals‛ at which next they activated a monitoring on the boy to try to understand him. (p.130 and 131, hearing 27.3.2009, statements by Tavernesi Francesco)."
 
Forget the big toe. The bathmat does not offer a credible delineated shape. The general shape of the bathmat print is related to the general shape of Sollecito's foot.

You can make an approximation of the large masses and sweep that fit Sollecito only.

The proportions of the whole footprint match Sollecito's. They do not fit Guede's proportions.

Sollecito's footprint general shape is compact and wide. Guede's is narrow and elongated.

You cannot make exact measurements out of a smudge, but you can make out a compatible shape for two distinct footprint shapes such as Sollecito's and Guede's.

I am not understanding a couple of things in your argument. Are you saying when somebody stepped on that bathmat with a bloody foot the blood would flow inward towards the pressure of the foot rather than outward away from the foot possibly transferring to neighboring fibers in the mat, making it appear somewhat wider that it actually is? I also am not sure what your "compact and wide" description means?
 
Clearly then, I misunderstood your argument, probably because you didn't address any of the points I made (as indeed, you've failed to do again). Calling someone "snipey and silly" isn't particularly conducive to a discussion no matter what post you're replying to.

I said nothing about Quintavalle, but was asking about Comodi. Perhaps you're mixing me up with someone else.


Yes the second half shouldn't have been directed towards you.
 
So with reference to the porn, which you include as "nonsense", you are saying that the director of Raffaele's ONAOSI college made up his testimony concerning the porn including bestiality porn which was found on his computer and the active monitoring he was put under thereafter is made up?

The testimony was given in court:

"Raffaele Sollecito moved to Perugia in 2002 from his region, Giovinazzo, after which in 2002 obtained his graduation diploma. He enrolled at the faculty of informatics and chose Perugia because of the presence in the city of the ONAOSI college (see statements by the father, Francesco Sollecito, page 15, hearing19.6.2009) where he was boarding from 2003 to 2005. He was "taciturn, introverted, shy.... watched many films‛ and educators at the boy’s ONAOSI college were shocked by a film ‚very much hard-core ... where there were scenes of sex with animals‛ at which next they activated a monitoring on the boy to try to understand him. (p.130 and 131, hearing 27.3.2009, statements by Tavernesi Francesco)."

His three college dorm mates testified that they knew nothing about this and Raffaele was not into porn. This is the only incident we have on this claim and could have been a prank for all the information we have on it. Did the investigators find any of this porn on his computers before they let the computer destruction expert get hold of it? How exactly were they monitoring Raffaele? How did his dorm mates not know about this monitoring or this porn?
 
So with reference to the porn, which you include as "nonsense", you are saying that the director of Raffaele's ONAOSI college made up his testimony concerning the porn including bestiality porn which was found on his computer and the active monitoring he was put under thereafter is made up?

I believe the point was not to contest the fact, but that using porn an comics as a murder motive is nuts.

Time to go, good night and have fun everybody :)
 
So with reference to the porn, which you include as "nonsense", you are saying that the director of Raffaele's ONAOSI college made up his testimony concerning the porn including bestiality porn which was found on his computer and the active monitoring he was put under thereafter is made up?

The testimony was given in court:

"Raffaele Sollecito moved to Perugia in 2002 from his region, Giovinazzo, after which in 2002 obtained his graduation diploma. He enrolled at the faculty of informatics and chose Perugia because of the presence in the city of the ONAOSI college (see statements by the father, Francesco Sollecito, page 15, hearing19.6.2009) where he was boarding from 2003 to 2005. He was "taciturn, introverted, shy.... watched many films‛ and educators at the boy’s ONAOSI college were shocked by a film ‚very much hard-core ... where there were scenes of sex with animals‛ at which next they activated a monitoring on the boy to try to understand him. (p.130 and 131, hearing 27.3.2009, statements by Tavernesi Francesco)."

This is from Sollecito's appeal:

The judgment reported only those parts of his testimony in which Tavernese described the character of Sollecito during the first period he spent in college, ignoring the fact that in describing Raffaele as a boy “taciturn, introverted, shy…” the witness linked these characteristics with the “understandable initial difficulties in adapting to leaving the family home” (statements Francesco Tavernese, hearing 27.03.2009, p. 130).

But there is more of this. The sentencing report completely ignored particularly significant passages from the witness statement. In fact, in the course of his testimony Tavernese described Raffaele as a boy who “has, in our opinion, had a good developmental path since he came to us (…) and came to us in one way and left in another, in the sense that he left as a more open boy, as a more communicative boy than we saw on entrance and a boy who socialized well on his floor, a boy accepted by that portion of the community with whom in practice he spent his days” (declarations Francesco Tavernese, hearing 27.3.2009, p. 139).

The judgment also emphasized the viewing of a porn film which was instead considered irrelevant by Tavernese: “...we saw it as something of a casual character, extemporaneous, that is we connected it more to curiosity than anything else (…) in the male community the viewing of such films happens (…) we found only one copy (…) and we were not, I repeat, in a series of checks then effected in the absence of Raffaele, able to find anything [else], thus we have in some way… have concluded in some way that it was a curiosity of the moment” (declarations Francesco Tavernese, hearing 27.3.2009, pages 130 and 139).

I'm really surprised you place such weight on things which are pretty irrelevant, in my view.
 
Well she could always excuse and say she was "imprecise", couldn't she? :)

She was obviously trying to impress the jury and the media and you don't need to be truthful to do that. She succeeded as the talking point of "Amanda called before anything had happened" circulates in the echochamber since then and also found it's way into the motivation.


Your idea that it was Comodi who introduced that "Amanda called before anything had happened" is not correct. The source for that is one Edda Mellas.

Edda Mellas: "You called me one time saying...‛
Amanda Knox: "I was in shock you know‛
Edda Mellas: "But this was before anything happened except for the fact that the house was...‛ (RIT 397/08, of November 10, 2007).

Ouch.
 
We've already established that Battistelli was lying on the stand so we need to be careful about accepting any of his statements. As for Massei, does he acknowledge the events that occurred between the time Amanda was in the frantic state and the time the postal police arrived? Events such as Amanda talking to her mom, Raffaele calling his sister and then the police and the two of them going outside to wait for the police to arrive. It seems to me that there was plenty of time to count to ten and settle down before the postal police showed up.

The locked/closed door issue we've been over many times too. There could very easily have been a translation error between locked and closed and there is no reason for Amanda to want to reassure everyone that the situation was normal after already having called the police because the situation was not normal.
Coulda, woulda, shoulda. The end result is they landed in jail.

It is this same wooly, lukewarm review of facts that the defense presented at trial.

A jury hearing this in the middle of a murder trial will not be swayed. They will convict.

Do people phase out and mute a grave concern as soon as police arrive?

The first thing two people do when in grave concern is voice their anguish in no uncertain terms. If Battistelli lied during testimony, was he confronted by the defendants? Was there a dispute on this that you can point to?

Unless you think Massei is making things up as he goes.
 
This is from Sollecito's appeal:



I'm really surprised you place such weight on things which are pretty irrelevant, in my view.


I didn't place any weight on it. Kestrel said that the idea that porn was involved was "nonsense" and I showed it clearly wasn't. It's a simple evidential point.
 
Yes the second half shouldn't have been directed towards you.

So you're still not answering the question I put to you, then?

(Are you saying that Comodi didn't know the time at which the call was made when she said Amanda called her mother "at 12. At midday"? And that even though she based her entire argument around the timing of the call, she hadn't bothered to check it?)
 
Actually, you did. Do I need to replay the history of that sub-thread for you? Or are you just nitpicking a detail that witnesses in Italian courts don't take the stand when they testify but simply stand in front of a podium??

I established that Battistelli was lying on the stand? When?
 
I didn't place any weight on it. Kestrel said that the idea that porn was involved was "nonsense" and I showed it clearly wasn't. It's a simple evidential point.

No, Kestrel said that the 'motivation' for the murder given in the report was nonsense (manga comics, porn, marijuana). Not that the idea that porn was involved at all was nonsense.
 
His three college dorm mates testified that they knew nothing about this and Raffaele was not into porn. This is the only incident we have on this claim and could have been a prank for all the information we have on it. Did the investigators find any of this porn on his computers before they let the computer destruction expert get hold of it? How exactly were they monitoring Raffaele? How did his dorm mates not know about this monitoring or this porn?


The manga found on Raffaele's computer included rape scenes. I am aware that some proponents of Raffaele's believe this doesn't "count" because it's "normal" for manga. Mary_H was a proponent of this theory on the Daily Beast forums. But if you're going to get into disputing the evidence of the director of the school that porn was found, that it included bestiality and that Raffaele was placed under supervision as a result, there really is no point in discussing this case with you. As Katy_Did posts, even the defence appeal doesn't deny that it happened, simply that the college thought it was an abberation:


"The judgment also emphasized the viewing of a porn film which was instead considered irrelevant by Tavernese: “...we saw it as something of a casual character, extemporaneous, that is we connected it more to curiosity than anything else (…) in the male community the viewing of such films happens (…) we found only one copy (…) and we were not, I repeat, in a series of checks then effected in the absence of Raffaele, able to find anything [else], thus we have in some way… have concluded in some way that it was a curiosity of the moment” (declarations Francesco Tavernese, hearing 27.3.2009, pages 130 and 139)."


If you are disputing even such basic evidence which is in his college records and isn't disputed by the defence, this is pointless. Pick your battles sure, but when you are in blanket denial on absolutely everything, you undermine yourself.
 
No, Kestrel said that the 'motivation' for the murder given in the report was nonsense (manga comics, porn, marijuana). Not that the idea that porn was involved at all was nonsense.


Ok, if I picked up the wrong end of that, I apologise. I don't think Massei has ever suggested that Meredith was killed because Raffaele watched a porn movie. However it goes to character that it was bestiality rather than a standard sex film. I think that's the point of mentioning it.
 
Your idea that it was Comodi who introduced that "Amanda called before anything had happened" is not correct. The source for that is one Edda Mellas.

Edda Mellas: "You called me one time saying...‛
Amanda Knox: "I was in shock you know‛
Edda Mellas: "But this was before anything happened except for the fact that the house was...‛ (RIT 397/08, of November 10, 2007).

Ouch.

I wonder what the rest of the quote is and why it was cut off. My guess is "broken into and there was blood". Hopefully someone will give is more context on this one with the full quote.
 
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