Will the internet survive energy contraction?

[PixyMisa]

Well even if that's true, it doesn't negate the other aspects of the collapse we've discussed, nor does it prove industrialization improves literacy, education, women's rights, etc. Where I'm from completely disproves those notions. (Kerala)

Ah, you're actually from Kerala. I didn't realise that when you mentioned it before. That's very interesting, and I'd love to hear your personal views about it.

Kerala is something of an anomaly as I understand it - it's relatively progressive, particularly in women's education, but it's not self-sustaining, being economically dependent on remittences from workers overseas.

It's not a subsistence agriculture economy either - Kerala grows a lot of rice, but it also grows a lot of cash crops. There's a huge difference there.

 

[PixyMisa]

Yeah, it's what I linked to (well, from another site)

Yep, and it was rubbish then too.

It's true that there is no single Plan B. As I pointed out, there are hundreds of Plan Bs. We don't want a single Plan B, because if that's all we've got and doesn't work, we're doomed. We want as many viable ideas as we can get, all competing with each other.

Fortunately, that's exactly what we have.

 

[TFian]

Ah, you're actually from Kerala. I didn't realise that when you mentioned it before. That's very interesting, and I'd love to hear your personal views about it.

Sure, what would you like to know?

Kerala is something of an anomaly as I understand it - it's relatively progressive, particularly in women's education

Yes, women are generally educated at similar levels to men (though there's still some disparity), and the literacy rate is over 94% I believe (highest in India I believe)

but it's not self-sustaining, being economically dependent on remittences from workers overseas.

Not fully no. It's why it's a sort of tradition for youth leave the state (often to Gulf countries) and send wages back home.

It's not a subsistence agriculture economy either - Kerala grows a lot of rice, but it also grows a lot of cash crops. There's a huge difference there.

True, I should have used my words more wisely. I meant to say it could be done in a primarily agriculture focused economy. After all, you could grow a surplus to sell others.

 

[PixyMisa]

Sure, what would you like to know?

I'm interested in how things really work there, what it's like to live there, and what lessons we can learn to help us build a lower-impact civilisation that is still prosperous and technologically advanced.

As I've said any number of times, I don't believe that there's evidence that we're doomed, and I won't accept that it's inevitable in any case - faced with billions of deaths, I'll fight to the bitter end to find solutions to the problems. I've also noted that I believe far more in humanity's readiness to adapt than you, so I'm willing to learn from anyone.

And the very last thing I'm willing to give up, because I think it would be the last thing we give up before we slide into inevitable extinction, is the internet.

So I'm really arguing with you on two fronts: Both the factual points, like how much energy the internet uses, how much it will use in the future, and how much it needs to use (three very different numbers); and on values, on the value of the internet to us as a culture and as individuals, which I think is almost incalculable.

 

[TFian]

I'm interested in how things really work there, what it's like to live there, and what lessons we can learn to help us build a lower-impact civilisation that is still prosperous and technologically advanced.

Oh sure, but if you don't mind, could you be a bit more detailed. Do you mean, how day to day life is there (for men/and or women?), or how it works economically speaking? Education, health wise? Politically?

 

[PixyMisa]

Everything.

Though maybe we should start a new thread. I expect a lot of other people will be interested too.

 

[TFian]

Everything.

Though maybe we should start a new thread. I expect a lot of other people will be interested too.

Sure, I can answer them all in depth (and questions), tho if I need to make a new thread, what subforum should I put it in?

 

[PixyMisa]

Well even if that's true, it doesn't negate the other aspects of the collapse we've discussed, nor does it prove industrialization improves literacy, education, women's rights, etc. Where I'm from completely disproves those notions. (Kerala)

Now, back to this point, and James Burke, who you really need to get more familiar with:

Industrialisation and modern agriculture means that you need less people on the farm. The people who don't need to work growing food are available for other jobs. This intrinsically means that your civilisation becomes more prosperous.

The new industries and businesses that arise are more complex than farming, and require a larger body of skilled workers - engineers and bookkeepers to begin with, and more and more specialised and highly trained roles as time goes on.

That means that you need more education; it's not a matter of being enlightened as to the value of the liberal arts, it's just that businesses need these people to keep operating, and are willing to pay them - and for the employee, it means you're not mucking out the pigs at 4AM or working at the coal face 15 hours a day. Everyone wins.

Once you have industrialisation, improved education and literacy become a necessity.

Women's rights took longer for a number of reasons, partly because the sheer labour involved in maintaning a home before modern appliances and modern groceries was so high. (And partly because men are jerks.) Industrialisation was one of the key factors still; another was the two World Wars, particularly the second; Western social standards shifted dramatically during and after both WWI and WWII. With so many men away dying in the mud in France, women were needed to maintain the workforce back home, and the genie could not be pushed back into the bottle afterwards.

(This is also what led to film noir, and why it is essentially a cycle rather than a genre - changing attitudes in the 1950s erased the tension upon which noir was based.)

Kerala in no way disproves any of this. India is a modern industrialised nation, and Kerala draws on all of that directly as well as the history of other countries that industrialised earlier.

 

[PixyMisa]

Sure, I can answer them all in depth (and questions), tho if I need to make a new thread, what subforum should I put it in?

Good question.

Science is the place where you get the best answers and arguments tend to get shortcut with fact dumps, but it's not exactly a science topic.

 

[TFian]

So you can't support your ideas and resort to just a garbage bag full of further unsupported assertions.
Sure climate change is an issue, and it will impact the quality of life, if it gets as far as it might. IF IF IF
Extinction rates will not lead to the collapse of civilization, it won't be good for those species.
Water toxicity will not destroy civilization.
Overfishing is dumb, but won't end civilization.
Bee hive abandonment? You mean CCD? Bad, but won't end civilization.
"Breakdown" of ecosystems, unsubstantiated.
Increase in physical and mental health, look dude or dudette, more people died from sepsis one hundred years ago, and there has been no rise in mental health issues, they just don't hide us mentally ill people any more.

Yes climate change is one little issue, in line with a barrage of other issues. It was but one small example.

Extinction rates WILL cause the collapse of our civilization. It is sad what little people know about our planet and how each animal has it's place in nature. Butterfly effect? Bees and salmon are two very crucial and serious examples of how WE can be severely impacted by other animals dying off.

 

[TFian]

So you can't support your ideas and resort to just a garbage bag full of further unsupported assertions.
Sure climate change is an issue, and it will impact the quality of life, if it gets as far as it might. IF IF IF
Extinction rates will not lead to the collapse of civilization, it won't be good for those species.
Water toxicity will not destroy civilization.
Overfishing is dumb, but won't end civilization.
Bee hive abandonment? You mean CCD? Bad, but won't end civilization.
"Breakdown" of ecosystems, unsubstantiated.
Increase in physical and mental health, look dude or dudette, more people died from sepsis one hundred years ago, and there has been no rise in mental health issues, they just don't hide us mentally ill people any more.

To be brief, I was speaking of health issues involving our diet and stress levels which are directly involved with civilization... ADHD, autism, and depression also involve civilization.

 

[TFian]

No so much:
You're worried about endangered species now? Things were a whole lot worse before we started living in cities and raising our own food.

Yes, ecosystems break down naturally. However, we also directly CAUSE those breakdowns directly in alarming numbers. Therefore, your point is moot.

 

[TFian]

Now, back to this point, and James Burke, who you really need to get more familiar with:

Industrialisation and modern agriculture means that you need less people on the farm. The people who don't need to work growing food are available for other jobs. This intrinsically means that your civilisation becomes more prosperous.

The new industries and businesses that arise are more complex than farming, and require a larger body of skilled workers - engineers and bookkeepers to begin with, and more and more specialised and highly trained roles as time goes on.

That means that you need more education; it's not a matter of being enlightened as to the value of the liberal arts, it's just that businesses need these people to keep operating, and are willing to pay them - and for the employee, it means you're not mucking out the pigs at 4AM or working at the coal face 15 hours a day. Everyone wins.

Once you have industrialisation, improved education and literacy become a necessity.

Women's rights took longer for a number of reasons, partly because the sheer labour involved in maintaning a home before modern appliances and modern groceries was so high. (And partly because men are jerks.) Industrialisation was one of the key factors still; another was the two World Wars, particularly the second; Western social standards shifted dramatically during and after both WWI and WWII. With so many men away dying in the mud in France, women were needed to maintain the workforce back home, and the genie could not be pushed back into the bottle afterwards.

(This is also what led to film noir, and why it is essentially a cycle rather than a genre - changing attitudes in the 1950s erased the tension upon which noir was based.)

Kerala in no way disproves any of this. India is a modern industrialised nation, and Kerala draws on all of that directly as well as the history of other countries that industrialised earlier.

Well, I was meaning more that such things are possibly without industrializing. I wasn't arguing industrializing doesn't result in such positive outcomes. (well if done a certain way). I'm not so sure India can exactly be called a modern industrialized nation. Sure, it's more developed than say, sub Sahara Africa, but most of the nation is still in pretty dire shape.

 

[PixyMisa]

Victorian England was pretty dire too (childhood mortality rates were appalling) but indubitably industrialised.

 

[PixyMisa]

Yes, ecosystems break down naturally. However, we also directly CAUSE those breakdowns directly in alarming numbers. Therefore, your point is moot.

You didn't follow the link.

Early (pre-agriculture, pre-city) humans wiped out huge numbers of species. If you ever wondered where all those large land animals went, well, we ate 'em.

 

[TFian]

Victorian England was pretty dire too (childhood mortality rates were appalling) but indubitably industrialised.

Industrialized yes, but modern industrialized I dunno. Maybe I'm not really understanding the terms right.

 

[PixyMisa]

Yes climate change is one little issue, in line with a barrage of other issues. It was but one small example.

Extinction rates WILL cause the collapse of our civilization.

I thought it was oil? Or culture? Or something?

It is sad what little people know about our planet and how each animal has it's place in nature.

There are millions of species of animal. How many can you even name?

Butterfly effect?

Fried up with a litle pepper, delicious!

Bees and salmon are two very crucial and serious examples of how WE can be severely impacted by other animals dying off.

Bees... And salmon. BEARS! COLONY COLLAPSE DISORDER IS BEARS!

Blame Canada!

 

[TFian]

Good question.

Science is the place where you get the best answers and arguments tend to get shortcut with fact dumps, but it's not exactly a science topic.

If someone knows where's the appropriate area, I'll go create it there.

 

[TFian]

I thought it was oil? Or culture? Or something?

It will be many things.

There are millions of species of animal. How many can you even name?

Yes I know there's millions of species, but it's not like we can just get rid of a whole lot of them and be ok.

Fried up with a litle pepper, delicious!

Eww!

Bees... And salmon. BEARS! COLONY COLLAPSE DISORDER IS BEARS!

Blame Canada!

"If the bee disappears from the surface of the earth, man would have no more than four years to live."~Albert Einstein

 

[PixyMisa]

It is unlikely that Einstein ever said that.

In any case, it's untrue. The big staple crops - wheat, corn, rice - aren't pollinated by bees. Soybeans sometimes are, but can pollinated by wind too.