Is alcoholism a disease or something else?

She is beyond furious and is in her most Italian fury.
~shrug~ My wife's got Italian blood, so I know the Italian temper. And this is the internet--it's impossible to strangle me over a message board. Also, merely saying "These guys agree with me" is not a valid argument. Yes, they probably have better data than I do (and there's a difference between an anecdote intended to argue a point and one intended to illustrate a point), but until we can see the line of reasoning all you're doing is saying "These authorities say so, so sit down and shut up." That is not a good argument. In fact, that is a logical fallacy.

And no, I'm not going to do your research for you--if you want to argue that alcoholism is a disease, you need to present your evidence.

Let me ask you this: What is a disease? I mean that as a serious question. It's kinda like defining life: we all generally know it when we see it, but the details get heated. And obviously you are using a different definition of "disease" than some of the rest of us here. Perhaps we can have a civil discussion from there.
 
Dinwar
"These guys agree with me" is not a valid argument.

I understand that argument from authority is fallacious.
However in this instance I believe it is warranted.

My wife: Director of Behavioral Neuroscience at one of the most prestigious research institutes in the world.
[Notice how I originally thought alcoholism was not a disease an then my wife came home and informed me differently. Not with opinion but with peer reviewed data.]

You: Insert credentials on this subject.
 
*Cough BULLCRAP *Cough

Once again, as an alcoholic, I willingly choose to put alcohol in my body.
In fact, this thread has made me want a cold one, I was gonna wait till 7 but nevermind.

Sure, I may have a genetic predisposition to enjoying, wanting, craving, depending on alcohol, but I can stop whenever I want by NOT DRINKING.
Which I don't want to do right now.


The bolded excerpts should be your epithet on your tombstone. Famous last words. Do you realize that you are at a classical stage of denial that all alkies/druggies go through before the inevitable? Good luck.
 
Zerospeaks-I don''t know you or your wife, but if she will let you, give her a GREAT BIG KISS FROM ME!!!!
And get her her own profile up and running. We need her!
Love,
Jim the recovering Drunk & Junkie
 
Zerospeaks-I don''t know you or your wife, but if she will let you, give her a GREAT BIG KISS FROM ME!!!!
And get her her own profile up and running. We need her!
Love,
Jim the recovering Drunk & Junkie
Hang on, someone who knows what she's talking about joining the forum? NO FAIR. ;)
 
Zerospeaks-I don''t know you or your wife, but if she will let you, give her a GREAT BIG KISS FROM ME!!!!
And get her her own profile up and running. We need her!
Love,
Jim the recovering Drunk & Junkie

I will pass the love!
I told her to join in on this forum, I really did.
Her response: " Dear, you are my free time"
It's true, she does work like 12 hours a day, 7 days a week.

I will ask her again... even if she just posts on this forum bi-weekly.
 
You: Insert credentials on this subject.
No.

I don't care if he's the Grand High Pubah of the Church of Alcohol is a Diseasism. So far your argument is:

X said alcoholism is a disease.
X has a shiny title.
(The shiny title means he's right)
And I'm mad
(And no one can argue with me when I'm mad)
Therefore, alcoholism is a disease.

I'm not going to argue your side for your--I'm not going to research the reasoning of the various bodies who agree with you. Right now ALL you have presented is an Argument from Authority.

And I'm not saying referencing this authority is a bad argument. What I'm saying is that as your argument stands right now I cannot agree with you. Your conclusion does not follow from your reasoning as it is presented in this forum. Give me a list of arguments and we can go from there. And I'm sorry, but "He has a shiny title and you don't" is not a valid reason.

Notice how I originally thought alcoholism was not a disease an then my wife came home and informed me differently. Not with opinion but with peer reviewed data.
See, this precisely what is NOT being presented here. This is what I'm asking for.

Again, before we move forward in this discussion we need to define the term "disease". Once we agree on that, we can determine if alcoholism falls into that category. My wife and I actually were discussing this over coffee tonight. She says that the two key factors are 1) it's transmittable, and 2) it lowers your defenses somehow. I don't like that definition; I'd rather go with "an attack by some biological agent ('biological' here including viruses and prions)". Anything else we'd both call a disorder. Alcoholism would be a disorder. So would multiple sclerosis and the bad neck I inherited (I include those to illustrate that this term has nothing to do with the severity of the issue). I know that neither is a GOOD definition, really, but right now those are the only ones I have to go off of.

Or, you know, continue to get angry and beat me over the head with some authority figure. But if you'd rather have me blindly accept someone's word than convince me logically, using a valid argument, I really don't see the point of continuing this discussion.
 
Dinwar, if you want papers/studies published I will ask my wife to provide them for you.
Right now she is snoring in the bedroom.... so patience please.

I DO KNOW that she was quoting off the top of her head several that are relevent to this discussion because she had a)some part in the research or b) co-authored the research herself.
 
I by no means meant to offend your wife, and I can certainly wait as long until she has time to provide more information. My point was merely that there has not been enough data supporting her reasoning presented in this discussion for me to agree with her. As soon as she provides other lines of reasoning I'll look at those and evaluate them. Honestly, I'd like to know--if nothing else, I'd like to have a better definition of "disease" than the ad-hock mish-mash my wife and I came up with. :)
 
<snip>
I'd like to have a better definition of "disease" than the ad-hock mish-mash my wife and I came up with. :)
Here's one definition, from Toward an Ontological Treatment of Disease and Diagnosis (Scheuermann, Ceusters, and Smith) ontology.buffalo.edu/medo/disease_and_diagnosis.pdf:
disorder =def. -- A causally relatively isolated combination of physical components that is (a) clinically abnormal and (b) maximal, in the sense that it is not part of some larger such combination. <snip> Such disorders are the physical basis of disease. A disease comes into existence because some physical component becomes malformed. In some cases the disorder is a congenital malformation. In other cases it involves a virus or toxin coming in from the outside, or it arises because the absence of a normal bodily component leads to abnormal functioning.

Pathological Process =def. -- A bodily process that is a manifestation of a disorder. <snip>

Disease =def. -- A disposition (i) to undergo pathological processes that (ii) exists in an organism because of one or more disorders in that organism. <snip>
 
First, I think this thread should be addressing: Is ADDICTION a disease or something else? Alcoholism is just one of many kinds of "addictions."

I think there are a number of problems to address, one being the definition of "addiction." Far too often, it seems to me the term "addiction" is thrown around anytime someone becomes habituated to anything, whether or not the individual is habitually moderate or habitually excessive.

"Addiction" has thus become a term largely synonymous with Obsession. Which is a shame, because there certainly are "Real" Physical Addictions which an individual does not have any control over. Their Physiology literally overpowers their "will." I think in such cases, the Disease Model of addiction is very appropriate.

My problem is that the Disease Model of Addiction has become a Blanket Model for all "addictive" behaviours. Another issue for me is that groups like AA have conflated their Sin Model of addiction with the Disease Model of addiction.

Further confusing the issue is the "Behavioural" Model of addiction, which frankly isn't very dissimilar to the Sin Model of you think about it. They both posit "addiction" as a behavioural problem, and are both a means of Behaviour Modification. Though clearly the Behavioural Model is the more empirically based model of the two, in that God is not necessary for behaviour modification.

Yet still nagging at me is the idea that any one particular model is useful in all cases of "addiction."

Some people really don't have any control over compulsive behaviour, and expecting Behaviourism, CBT, and the like to be effective in these cases seems ridiculous on the face of it, as it requires the individual to make changes that they can't effect themselves (not to mention that there are certain ethical quandaries that arise when it comes to "behavioural modification" programmes--an issue for another thread perhaps). In such cases chemical intervention may be the only means to break the compulsive behaviour pattern; one could ostensibly consider such cases as falling into the Disease Model of addiction.

Now to back up a bit, I want to address the whole Puritanical Addiction Ideology that suggests that all "addiction" is "bad." I think sometimes self-medicating is a reasonable means of coping with life's misfortunes.

I made some comments on the AA/Religious thread that I don't think I can restate any better than I already have so here they are:

...the CDC and the Medical Community's lumping together of all forms of alcoholism into a disease model is dubious, and politically (rather than medically) based on the Sin/Disease model that has become the de facto model for addiction. It has become more a PC article of Faith, thanks to AA's cultural propaganda. This is probably one of the key reasons why I dislike AA so much.

As I pointed out earlier, the reasons for "addictive" behaviour are varied, and shouldn't all be treated in the same manner. The Medical Community has truncated its own ability to respond empirically by adopting the "Disease" Model of "addiction".

Indeed, it's even debatable that some forms of "addiction" are always "bad" and must always be treated. The Medical Community (particularly in the US), with its strong ties to the Pharmaceutical/Insurance complex make big money off of this dubious classification of "addiction" as "disease".

It's not so easy to separate out the political/economic factors that drive the growth of the Mental Health Industry from ACTUAL biological problems stemming from neurological and psychiatric disorders. Often, people self medicating with relatively safer drugs like Marijuana, are forced by the legal system to buy expensive, dangerous, and barely tested pharmaceuticals.

Chronic Pain sufferers are forced into strict dosage regimens of opiate based drugs when higher doses might actually be more beneficial, because doctors have been constrained by the political ideology of addiction.

AA is directly responsible for creating much of the Puritanical language, and shaping the political debate--particularly in the US, and by extension its allies--surrounding "Addiction", Prohibition, and the Drug War. It is no accident that it was founded by Protestants, and that it continues to promote a Puritan Ideology.

Part of my problem with a lot of Recovery Organizations, is that I think the whole environment has been "corrupted" by the puritan influence of religious temperance movements and their off-shoots like AA.

Society has become so paranoid about "addiction" that it shapes the whole debate and fuels the Drug War. So I don't just question AA because it's religious; I question the whole Anti-Addiction "Industry" because I think it is based on a lot of varying questionable assumptions that all seem rooted in the questionable assumption that "habitual" use of "drugs" is always wrong, even when ostensibly medically necessary.

This has made doctors increasingly paranoid about being prosecuted, and thus they often don't treat chronic pain patients with enough pain-killers to be effective. This has been enumerated by a Chronic pain Specialist I heard on NPR (and anecdotally, by my own doctor when she explained why she couldn't prescribe me enough to control my own chronic pain problems. And my protestations about the situation fell on deaf airs in NA meetings when family members pushed me to try to "kick the habit").

The whole Addiction Ideology also affects the arbitrary drug schedule classifications of rather innocuous, and potentially beneficial, "drugs" like marijuana.

The Commercial imperative of Big Pharma is also a major contributor to the current addiction ideology, as they make a fortune getting people legally hooked on THEIR drugs. So AA and Puritanism isn't the only "bad guy" in this propaganda picture.

But Puritanism seems to be the primary motivator behind Addiction Ideology, and I think a great case can be made that this is due to the internalization of Protestant ideas in society at large, to the point where they don't even seem religious at all.

So whether Recovery Groups posit a Sin/Disease Model as does AA, or a Behavioural Disorder Model of Addiction as does RR, they still subscribe to the notion that all habitual use of "drugs" is always wrong, and that negative outcomes are always the fault of the user rather than occasionally the negative attitudes, and laws of society.

...I think a lot of people with major substance abuse issues can't always "choose not to use" (not through any fault of their own).

Though clearly, many other people can still make choices (but to the extent to which they can make a choice it's not clear to me that such people actually need to stop "using" their drug of choice). It's the people that aren't able to effect change in their lives and are engaging in life-threatening behaviours that need the most help.

And I think this is why almost NO form of therapy currently available is particularly effective (though studies of breaking addiction patterns with psychotropics hold some promise, but these are unfortunately frowned upon in the current political climate). And this is why any program with a "one size fits all" approach is doomed to abysmal recovery rates.

I think that we will eventually find that most effective is treating the underlying problems that cause people to fall into heavy abuse patterns (Schizophrenia, Depression, Anxiety, OCD, Chronic and Severe Pain, Genetic predisposition to addictive behaviour patterns, coping with personal Financial Problems, coping with abuse, coping with living in an oppressed population group, coping with living in a highly demanding society that forces most people to work for less and less and being put out of work and out of house by Fat Cats who control and destroy economies, coping with living in a War Zone...etc, etc.). In some of these cases, helping people to USE drugs more effectively, might actually be better than helping them to stop using.

PS: It's about time society got of its moral high horse regarding the habitual use of drugs


So, in a nutshell, I think all models of "addiction" (except the sin model) have some validity in some cases. But I think the whole concept of "addiction" needs to be completely reworked to begin with, and for that we need a less Puritan political climate.

GB
 
I think calling alcoholism a disease is more than semantics.

Now that you bring that up, I think this entire argument can be reduced to semantics. Definitions of alcoholism are ambiguous, and I really don't think that it belongs in the same medical category as multiple sclerosis, ALS, or sexually transmitted diseases. It belongs in the category of psychology. I think the verbage is wrong. Alcoholism is a mental illness, not a disease. Also, Dinwar was correct in saying the word disease should also be clearly defined. You can't really call out semantics if you're using the 3rd and 4th definitions of words as standard. ;)

You also explained how alcoholism can lead to this disorder or cause that disease, but nobody will ever die from alcoholism. Ever. Diseases kill people. Alcoholism can not. It is an addiction/mental illness that can lead to serious diseases, but it should not be called a disease. Because it's not one.
 
Now that you bring that up, I think this entire argument can be reduced to semantics. Definitions of alcoholism are ambiguous, and I really don't think that it belongs in the same medical category as multiple sclerosis, ALS, or sexually transmitted diseases. It belongs in the category of psychology. I think the verbage is wrong. Alcoholism is a mental illness, not a disease. Also, Dinwar was correct in saying the word disease should also be clearly defined. You can't really call out semantics if you're using the 3rd and 4th definitions of words as standard. ;)

You also explained how alcoholism can lead to this disorder or cause that disease, but nobody will ever die from alcoholism. Ever. Diseases kill people. Alcoholism can not. It is an addiction/mental illness that can lead to serious diseases, but it should not be called a disease. Because it's not one.

While I agree that there are NUMEROUS semantic issues involved, there is no empirical basis for the separating of Mental Illness from other Physical Disorders. Some kinds of "addiction" are indeed a "Mental illness", which is the same as saying they are a Physical Illness. Some people DO die because of "addiction."

Many other kinds of "addiction" however are not mental illness at all, but a natural behavioural response to socio-political/economic environmental stressors.

GB
 
Looking back again over some of the posts I see a lot of attempts to parse "physical disorder" from "disease."

I tend to agree that specifically a disease is applied to illnesses arising from some sort of invasive infection, but the semantic line is blurred when it comes to cancers.

I don't think that most Medical Professionals would classify alcohol as a disease in that sense, they would be more likely to classify "addiction" as a physical disorder (unless they are behaviourists pr psychologists :rolleyes: ).

So I agree that this is another good reason to not posit a Disease Model for "addiction," however, I do think some semantic leeway can be given to those who mean "Physical Disorder Model" of addiction when they actually say "Disease Model."

GB
 
Now that you bring that up, I think this entire argument can be reduced to semantics. Definitions of alcoholism are ambiguous, and I really don't think that it belongs in the same medical category as multiple sclerosis, ALS, or sexually transmitted diseases. It belongs in the category of psychology. I think the verbage is wrong. Alcoholism is a mental illness, not a disease. Also, Dinwar was correct in saying the word disease should also be clearly defined. You can't really call out semantics if you're using the 3rd and 4th definitions of words as standard. ;)

You also explained how alcoholism can lead to this disorder or cause that disease, but nobody will ever die from alcoholism. Ever. Diseases kill people. Alcoholism can not. It is an addiction/mental illness that can lead to serious diseases, but it should not be called a disease. Because it's not one.
I think I'll take the word of all the organizations and doctors who say it is a disease over that of an anonymous internet poster. Alcoholism is a disease and it does kill people. The constant/excess consumption of alcohol destroys the body. It kills people in accidents. According to the World Health Organization (WHO) who.int/substance_abuse/facts/alcohol/en/index.html:
In addition to chronic diseases that may affect drinkers after many years of heavy use, alcohol contributes to traumatic outcomes that kill or disable at a relatively young age, resulting in the loss of many years of life to death or disability. There is increasing evidence that besides volume of alcohol, the pattern of the drinking is relevant for the health outcomes. Overall there is a causal relationship between alcohol consumption and more than 60 types of disease and injury. Alcohol is estimated to cause about 20-30% worldwide of oesophageal cancer, liver cancer, cirrhosis of the liver, homicide, epilepsy, and motor vehicle accidents.

According to the Neurobiology of Alcohol Dependence, Focus on Motivational Mechanisms (Gilpin and Koob) pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh313/185-195.htm:
Conclusions
Alcohol dependence is a debilitating disease that worsens over time. New technologies are being combined with traditional approaches to identify and track the critical neural circuits in the transition from alcohol use and abuse to dependence. Substance dependence on alcohol, or alcoholism, is defined by neuroplasticity that is responsible for phenomena such as sensitization, tolerance, and withdrawal as well as for neuron survival, all of which contribute to the development and maintenance of the disorder. In addition to the extant literature on the importance of brain reward circuits in the development of alcohol dependence, recent research has focused on a new contingent of neural systems that play central roles in the regulation of stress and anxiety as well as mediate executive functions. This joint focus on brain arousal, reward, and stress systems, along with the integration of new technologies in the field, is accelerating our understanding of the components of alcohol dependence and contributing to the development of new treatment strategies.
According to Alcoholic Lung Disease (Kershaw and Guidot) pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh311/66-75.htm:
In addition to its well-known association with lung infection (i.e., pneumonia), alcohol abuse now is recognized as an independent factor that increases by three- to four-fold the incidence of the acute respiratory distress syndrome, a severe form of acute lung injury with a mortality rate of 40 to 50 percent. This translates to tens of thousands of excess deaths in the United States each year from alcohol-mediated lung injury, which is comparable to scarring of the liver (i.e., cirrhosis) in terms of alcohol-related mortality.
According to the WHO Global Status Report on Alcohol 2004, Part I Consequences of Alcohol Use, Health effects and global burden of disease pp. 35-58 (who.int/substance_abuse/publications/globalstatusreportalcohol2004_healtheffects.pdf), the following are wholly alcohol-attributable diseases:
  • Alcohol psychoses
  • Alcohol-dependence syndrome
  • Alcohol abuse
  • Alcohol polyneuropathy
  • Alcohol cardiomyopathy
  • Alcohol gastritis
  • Alcohol liver cirrhosis
  • Excess blood alcohol
  • Ethanol and methanol toxicity
Diseases with a contributory role include:
  • Oropharyngeal, oesophageal, and liver cancers
  • Female breast cancer
  • Cancer of the stomach, colon, rectum, and ovaries
  • Hypertension
  • Cardiac arrhythmias
  • Heart failure
  • Haemorrhagic stroke
  • Liver cirrhosis (alcohol is the leading cause in established market economies)
  • Epilepsy
  • Acute and chronic pancreatitis
 
All that those papers tell me is that alcoholism causes disease, not that alcoholism is a disease.:)
 
FattyCatty said:
What facts about diabetes? Why the scare quotes?

By using the singular word "diabetes" you are making the same error as people who use the singular term "alcoholism"

"Diabetes" is merely a convenient grouping of several related diseases under a single single name "diabetes mellitus", each condition having differing causes, effects, treatments and attached danger/s.

Rather than filling the thread with an explanation, those so interested might like to acquaint themselves with the differences between "insulin dependent/type1/juvenile onset" diabetes and "type 2/adult onset/ diabetes and "gestational" diabetes and "pre diabetes" and "metabolic syndrome" here: http://www.emedicinehealth.com/diabetes/article_em.htm

My point being, while the lay population may find it more convenient to refer to "diabetes" and "alcoholism" and, indeed the "common cold" in singular terms, those in the health and caring professions certainly do not
 
Anyone that doubts alcoholism is a disease is welcome to visit my friend Steve. He and I were drinking buddies since the 10th grade. He can be seen on the 2nd FL of Forsyth Hospital here in Winston. This is his 4th time in the hospital in 3 years. He is suffering from multiple organ failure due to alcohol abuse. Since his liver isn't funtioning properly, he has a build up of bilirubin in his blood stream that makes him seem drunk all the time so that saves him money on beer, except he has been in the hospital for three weeks so I guess financially it's a wash. His wife, children, friends and job have all left him and I'm about to. Not because I don't love him. I'd just rather not watch him die. Oh, and by the way, I have a message for you from Steve. He told me this when I took him a cheese steak sub (his favorite) the other day....
drinking is not his problem. Really. Just ask him. He is not in the hospital because of drinking. I can't remember all the excuses he made but they were really quite creative. Maybe if I remember them I can put them on his tombstone? That would be hilarious.

BTW My uncle just had 1/2 of one lung removed due to cancer caused by smoking cigarettes. Was his cancer not a disease since it was caused by smoking and he could have put them down anytime? He started smoking again as soon as he got out the hospital. I guess the next time he gets cancer, it'll be the non-disease kind again.
 
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