Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Katody Matrass]

I think it would be beneficial to finally translate the Q, X, Y and Z of Mr. P into plain E. I mean English
It's my private translation and I of course welcome corrections.

Apparently P assumes that Amanda stopped the December 17 questioning after a mere 6 hours because she decided not to answer a question about the Nov 5/6 interrogation.

This assumption is of course false, because during the trial citations from that interrogation appear in which Amanda details the circumstances of the Nov 5/6 illegal interrogation and subsequent accusation of Patrick.

P's conclusion that is false states that the account of the illegal interrogation confirming the internalized false confession didn't emerge until the trial. That's false because even her Nov 6 written note is clearly indicating an internalized false confession and her explanations both from the Dec 17 and the trial are perfectly consistent with it and each other.

That's basically it. The P's mole is whacked and no more literary allusions are needed when we have a gem like "vedo i flash" which could be a motto of this particular mole

 

[piktor]

This is a very flat mole, but obviously not flat enough.

Miscarriages of justice happen from time to time. People not present figure this out from time to time.

This does not prove that the conviction of Knox and Sollecito was a miscarriage of justice, of course. (I mention this merely as a pre-emptive strike on a related mole). It merely shows that it's not inherently unreasonable to re-evaluate and/or criticise the verdict despite not being there.

For example, whether or not a t(lag) of five hours or more for a healthy young woman eating a small-to-moderate sized meal of pizza with no alcohol, stress or other known confounding factors does not depend on whether one was in a particular Perugia courtroom or not. Nor does the existence of independently verifiable computer records showing that someone watched Naruto on Raffaele's computer at 21:26 on the night of the murder.

As I have said before, if guilters really believed this mole they would replace all of their blogs and forums with a big sign saying "The court decided it, we believe it, that settles it" and they would all go home. The fact is they do very much believe that they can have an informed opinion on this case, and they express their opinions at every opportunity. They only start proclaiming the inherent fallibility of everyone who wasn't present in court at the time when they hit evidence they cannot explain away, which proves beyond reasonable doubt that the conviction was unsound. Then it's all "None of us can know, we weren't there, stop talking about it!".

The good news for people that agree with the prosecution is that the state used first-hand information.

The people that agree with innocence are using third-rate information. All "official" documents, photos and data have been filtered by unknown parties to specifically get two defendants off the hook. This case is still open, therefore:

It would be illegal to have documents from this open case.

The chain of custody for those documents has been broken.

The evidence discussed here is anonymous and internet-based.

On the other hand, the presiding judge has presented to all interested the report explaining his sentence. It is a public document for all to read.

Example:

Although it was established by Dr. Lalli there was content in the small intestine's last loop: "empty duodenum, small intestine containing digested material in the last loop ...‛ (pages 47 and 48 of report)"Massei p115. Some authors here choose to ignore this.

The Court and opposing sides have pages 47 and 48 of report. No one here has "the report". We have not seen the autopsy video and no one here is a forensic examiner. We are all on the outside looking in.

The best scientist here arguing for innocence is looking at incomplete information provided by a nameless source.

The prosecution has been an open book, the narrative imperfect but credible.

The defendants have been less that straightforward. The defense cannot help defendants that do not help themselves.

Example from the trial testimony:

"Edda (surprised): But you called me three times.

Amanda: Oh, I don’t remember that.

Edda: Okay, you called me first to tell me about some things that had shocked you. But this happened before anything really happened in the house." (my emphasis)

---------

"Comodi: But at twelve o’clock, nothing had happened yet. That’s what your mother said…

Amanda: I told my mother…

Comodi: …during the conversation you had with her in prison. Even your mother was amazed that you called her at midday, which was three or four o’clock in the morning in Seattle, to tell her that nothing had happened.

Amanda: I didn’t know what had happened. I just called my mother to say that [the police] had sent us out of the house, and that I had heard something said about…

Comodi: But at midday nothing had happened yet in the sense that the door had not been broken down yet."

----------------------

"In the following brief exchange, Amanda repeats five times that she cannot remember making that call.

Amanda: Hm. Okay. I don’t remember that phone call. I remember that I called her to tell her what we had heard about a foot. Maybe I did call before, but I don’t remember it.

Comodi: But if you called her before, why did you do it?

Amanda: I don’t remember, but if I did it, I would have called to…

Comodi: You did it.

Amanda: Okay, that’s fine. But I don’t remember it. I don’t remember that phone call." -TrueJustice blog

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index...estify_those_devils_that_lurk_in_the_details/

 

[Chris_Halkides]

one mole down, one to go

T
The best scientist here arguing for innocence is looking at incomplete information provided by a nameless source.

The prosecution has been an open book, the narrative imperfect but credible.

Piktor,

The defense is still waiting for the electronic data files, almost three years after the data were taken. Your description of the prosecution as an open book is risible, and it is difficult to believe that you are not aware of the lack of discovery. I will leave it to someone else to whack the mole about the nonexistent phone call at noon.

 

[piktor]

Piktor,

The defense is still waiting for the electronic data files, almost three years after the data were taken. Your description of the prosecution as an open book is risible, and it is difficult to believe that you are not aware of the lack of discovery. I will leave it to someone else to whack the mole about the nonexistent phone call at noon.

Then, the appeal should go swimmingly for the defense.

 

[Katody Matrass]

I will leave it to someone else to whack the mole about the nonexistent phone call at noon.

I will gladly help

Piktor, could you please open your copy of the Holy Massei Report on page 322 (chapter on Amanda's phone traffic) [345 Italian] and find for us that phone call you wrote about above?

 

[LondonJohn]

Piktor,

The defense is still waiting for the electronic data files, almost three years after the data were taken. Your description of the prosecution as an open book is risible, and it is difficult to believe that you are not aware of the lack of discovery. I will leave it to someone else to whack the mole about the nonexistent phone call at noon.

I'll pick up the ball on the stomach/intestine contents issue. The fact is, most of us who are discussing this particular issue on here are more than aware of the presence of matter at the very end of Meredith's small intestine. This cannot be her pizza meal, though, for three very good reasons: firstly, food typically takes between 6 and 10 hours after ingestion to reach the end of the small intestine, and not even the prosecution is claiming that Meredith was killed between 12.30am and 4.30am on the 2nd November. Secondly, 500ml of partially-digested contents were found in Meredith's stomach - entirely consistent with a moderate amount of pizza and a small portion of apple crumble. And thirdly, there were recognisable constituents of pizza (cheese matter and vegetable fibres) found within those 500ml of stomach contents.

Therefore, the autopsy indicates that Meredith's pizza meal (and her apple crumble pudding) were still entirely within her stomach at the time of death. It further suggests that the matter found at the end of Meredith's small intestine was almost certainly from a far earlier lunchtime snack, consumed at around 1.00-3.00pm, before she went to her friends' house. And it indicates that Meredith almost certainly died before 10.00pm, and most likely before 9.30pm.

 

[Scorpion NITE]

Seriously...

Piktor wrote:

...The prosecution has been an open book, the narrative imperfect but credible.


I am lost for words.

Do you genuinely believe that, or did it just look good to you when you wrote it?

 

[SomeAlibi]

Piktor,

The defense is still waiting for the electronic data files, almost three years after the data were taken. Your description of the prosecution as an open book is risible, and it is difficult to believe that you are not aware of the lack of discovery. I will leave it to someone else to whack the mole about the nonexistent phone call at noon.

Hi Kids

Chris - "non-existent" - are you saying that Edda Mellas made up the first phonecall from Amanda to her? She's given testimony on oath in court about it, spoken about it on multiple tv shows, made written statements to the police about it. She was very detailed in her testimony about what Amanda said, the details of which I can provide you if you would like. Are you saying she made that up?

SA

 

[LondonJohn]

Hi Kids

Chris - "non-existent" - are you saying that Edda Mellas made up the first phonecall from Amanda to her? She's given testimony on oath in court about it, spoken about it on multiple tv shows, made written statements to the police about it. She was very detailed in her testimony about what Amanda said, the details of which I can provide you if you would like. Are you saying she made that up?

SA

It wasn't at noon. It was at 12.47pm. Check the records......

PS Less of the "kids" please.

 

[Katody Matrass]

Hi Kids

Chris - "non-existent" - are you saying that Edda Mellas made up the first phonecall from Amanda to her? She's given testimony on oath in court about it, spoken about it on multiple tv shows, made written statements to the police about it. She was very detailed in her testimony about what Amanda said, the details of which I can provide you if you would like. Are you saying she made that up?

SA

Hi, SomeAlibi

What happened to piktor, is she OK?

 

[RoseMontague]

Hi Kids

"Kids"? I am reminded of my 5th grade English teacher for some reason. Nice to have you here. Welcome.

 

[Katody Matrass]

It wasn't at noon. It was at 12.47pm. Check the records......

I got a feeling that the awkward silence that commenced is the result of piktor and SomeAlibi frantically yet in vain checking that records.
Still that phone call issue piktor raised is a good starting point to a discussion about dirty and disingenuous prosecution tactics.

 

[LondonJohn]

I got a feeling that the awkward silence that commenced is the result of piktor and SomeAlibi frantically yet in vain checking that records.
Still that phone call issue piktor raised is a good starting point to a discussion about dirty and disingenuous prosecution tactics.

And nobody has yet coherently explained how it would in any way benefit Knox to deny having made the first phone call (at 12.47pm) to her mother. In other words, why is Knox's failure to remember this first call in any way indicative of her culpability in the crime?

If anything, surely it would have helped her to have remembered this particular call to her mother, since it was made after the discovery of the broken window etc in Filomena's room, and in the midst of a mounting sense of panic. Surely it would "benefit" Knox to recall that she'd called her mother to tell her that she was concerned about the state of the house and the whereabouts of Meredith, and that her mother advised her to call the police.

 

[piktor]

I'll pick up the ball on the stomach/intestine contents issue. The fact is, most of us who are discussing this particular issue on here are more than aware of the presence of matter at the very end of Meredith's small intestine. This cannot be her pizza meal, though, for three very good reasons: firstly, food typically takes between 6 and 10 hours after ingestion to reach the end of the small intestine, and not even the prosecution is claiming that Meredith was killed between 12.30am and 4.30am on the 2nd November. Secondly, 500ml of partially-digested contents were found in Meredith's stomach - entirely consistent with a moderate amount of pizza and a small portion of apple crumble. And thirdly, there were recognisable constituents of pizza (cheese matter and vegetable fibres) found within those 500ml of stomach contents.

Therefore, the autopsy indicates that Meredith's pizza meal (and her apple crumble pudding) were still entirely within her stomach at the time of death. It further suggests that the matter found at the end of Meredith's small intestine was almost certainly from a far earlier lunchtime snack, consumed at around 1.00-3.00pm, before she went to her friends' house. And it indicates that Meredith almost certainly died before 10.00pm, and most likely before 9.30pm.

Massei p115:

"In the autopsy, Dr. Lalli noted the following: "... oesophagus containing a fragment apparently a piece of mushroom (page 46) ... stomach containing 500 cc alimentary bolus, green brown in which were recognizable caseosis (mozzarella?) and vegetable fibre".

My expertise comes from wiki. This on "caseosis":

Slow acting

"An attractive property of the casein molecule is its ability to form a gel or clot in the stomach. The ability to form this clot makes it very efficient in nutrient supply. The clot is able to provide a sustained slow release of amino acids into the blood stream, sometimes lasting for several hours.[3] This provides better nitrogen retention and utilization by the body."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casein#Slow_acting

I ask, caseosis, as stated in the Massei report or "cheese", as stated by some.

Subjected for your consideration:

Caseosis present in the stomach -and Massei mentions caseosis specifically- content was due to the abundant butter and cream in the crumb cake and ice cream dessert, the "vegetal fibre" is apple from the crumb cake and maybe some remaining cheese.

Stomach content was not analysed, as far as I know.

Other than theorize Meredith had an "earlier lunchtime snack", for which there is no report, unless proof is presented it remains a theory.

I happen to theorize the content in the "last loop" of the intestine is indeed the 6:00PM pizza contents that slid through manipulation by Dr. Lalli, the examiner.

The remaining 500ml contents found in the stomach were the apple crumb and ice cream and possibly what was left of the pizza cheese. This, also my theory with no proof but my common sense.

Time of death was in effect left indeterminate based on stomach content, because it is less than accurate. Time of death based on body temperature was also left indeterminate because the weight of the victim was guessed at by different experts and the weight and ToD based on a guessed body weight is indeterminate, so my sense of logic says.

So, in this particular case, time of death is hypothetical, indeterminate by conventional scientific methods necessarily and by using common sense.

 

[Trigood]

And nobody has yet coherently explained how it would in any way benefit Knox to deny having made the first phone call (at 12.47pm) to her mother. In other words, why is Knox's failure to remember this first call in any way indicative of her culpability in the crime?

If anything, surely it would have helped her to have remembered this particular call to her mother, since it was made after the discovery of the broken window etc in Filomena's room, and in the midst of a mounting sense of panic. Surely it would "benefit" Knox to recall that she'd called her mother to tell her that she was concerned about the state of the house and the whereabouts of Meredith, and that her mother advised her to call the police.

You think there are NO POSSIBLE PLAUSIBLE reasons why she might not want to recount the contents of that call? (One example: "Mom, please get me outta here!" Another: "Mom, I may need a lawyer soon!")

The fact remains, she lied about it on the stand.

Not a crime in Italy, fortunately for her.

 

[Katody Matrass]

The fact remains, she lied about it on the stand.

Not a crime in Italy, fortunately for her.

Why do you think Comodi lied about that call? It is legal for prosecutors to lie during trial?

 

[Kaosium]

Hi Kids

Chris - "non-existent" - are you saying that Edda Mellas made up the first phonecall from Amanda to her? She's given testimony on oath in court about it, spoken about it on multiple tv shows, made written statements to the police about it. She was very detailed in her testimony about what Amanda said, the details of which I can provide you if you would like. Are you saying she made that up?

SA

Yes, I would like the details of that, especially how it ties into evidence of guilt. It seems to me reading about this is there's a great deal of noise from some on the subject of evidence of suspicion--but that is hardly evidence of guilt. For that I go to the actual crime scene and there's practically nothing tying either Amanda or Raffaele to the murder, and what little there is casts more suspicion upon the prosecution.

Bottom line, maybe someone is lying about a phone call, so what? The best it does is excuse the Italian police somewhat for being suspicious of her in the first place, it doesn't explain how when they got to actually collecting the physical evidence they came up with a big fat zero until they pushed the edge of the envelope and beyond trying to tie her to that scene.

 

[piktor]

And nobody has yet coherently explained how it would in any way benefit Knox to deny having made the first phone call (at 12.47pm) to her mother. In other words, why is Knox's failure to remember this first call in any way indicative of her culpability in the crime?

If anything, surely it would have helped her to have remembered this particular call to her mother, since it was made after the discovery of the broken window etc in Filomena's room, and in the midst of a mounting sense of panic. Surely it would "benefit" Knox to recall that she'd called her mother to tell her that she was concerned about the state of the house and the whereabouts of Meredith, and that her mother advised her to call the police.

My explanation: It does not make a lot of sense. It is this lack of a logical pattern that points to flight from truth and deception.

This is a murder investigation, not a "who put a hand inside the cookie jar" investigation. Knox decided to play games with her own mother, a prosecutor and the presiding judge in a courtroom.

 

[Katody Matrass]

Stilicho would be very interested, what a beautiful conspiracy theory

 

[Katody Matrass]

My explanation: It does not make a lot of sense. It is this lack of a logical pattern that points to flight from truth and deception.

This is a murder investigation, not a "who put a hand inside the cookie jar" investigation. Knox decided to play games with her own mother, a prosecutor and the presiding judge in a courtroom.

Why did Comodi decide to play games in the court and lie about the call being made at 12 o'clock ? She lied about the time and she lied about the call being made when "nothing had happened yet".

Have you checked the Massei already? Do you know when that call was made?