Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[daydreamer]

Some thoughts about the "Rock"

From the crime photos of the interior of Filomena’s room, the size of the rock used to break the window seemed a bit large to me. I think that a baseball-sized rock would be more appropriate and accurate. But, I think that Rudy was able to stand on the top rung of the lower window and look through the glass to see that the inner shutter was closed. Based on this info, Rudy probably figured he needed to blast through the window and inner shutter. Standing on the parking lot retaining wall it is about a 6-foot throw to reach the window. Rudy should have no trouble hitting his target from this distance. I think someone staging a break-in would have picked the nearest available, appropriately sized rock from the parking area (not the sloped area) and bashed the window from the inside.

From the crime photos, it appears that the rock hit the inner shutter close to the hinged side. Hitting this location would present a considerable amount of resistance to the rock causing it to stop its forward direction and ricochet to the left and drop to the floor. If the rock had hit closer to the latch side, it would have most likely continued its forward trajectory and landed somewhere in the middle of the floor. The reason for this additional resistance is due to the angular momentum (inertia) of the shutter (assumed to be solid wood, and near the same weight as the rock). To demonstrate this effect, take any unlatched door and push on it with one finger near the doorknob edge and notice the amount of force it takes to move open the door. Now do the exact same thing by pushing with one finger near the hinged side of the door. Notice how much more force is required to open the door (if you can actually do it).

I also was wondering where the rock came from. Again, it seems a bit large to be one of the stones used in the parking area. More likely is that it was found on the sloped area between the cottage and the parking area retaining wall. From the crime photos the parking area stones seem to be more gravel-like, and the sloped area seems to be somewhat rocky with light vegetation. It would have been nice if the police had combed the slope area to determine if it was the source of the rock. If the rock came from an area closer to the cottage side, we might conclude that someone came from inside the house. If the source were closer to the parking lot retaining wall, it would be more likely that someone coming from the lower window picked it up on the way to the retaining wall.

 

[LondonJohn]

Looks like it's plural, for one thing ("i" being plural "the"). So apparently Amanda was sitting there yelling "I see the flashes, I see the flashes". LOL. I wondered if it was some sort of idiom I don't know about, but I don't think so, I think it's just a very bizarre translation.

Since the article says Amanda repeated what she wrote in her handwritten note, I think you're right, it must be referring to the "flashbacks" she mentions there. So she was probably saying, in response to the questioning about the accusation of Patrick, that during the November 5/6 interrogation she had had "flashbacks" of Patrick as the murderer, and that's why she thought it could be true.

Here's an interesting bit from Amanda's testimony about the translator in that interrogation...



No wonder she saw the flashes.

So the prosecutor brought in an Italian-German interpreter to translate into/from English? Incompetent or malevolent.........?

 

[Kaosium]

Looks like it's plural, for one thing ("i" being plural "the"). So apparently Amanda was sitting there yelling "I see the flashes, I see the flashes". LOL. I wondered if it was some sort of idiom I don't know about, but I don't think so, I think it's just a very bizarre translation.

Could it possibly be "I see the light! I see the light!" in the ironic sense? In that case it would be an idiom for someone pretending they'd had a conversion.

 

[LondonJohn]

From the crime photos of the interior of Filomena’s room, the size of the rock used to break the window seemed a bit large to me. I think that a baseball-sized rock would be more appropriate and accurate. But, I think that Rudy was able to stand on the top rung of the lower window and look through the glass to see that the inner shutter was closed. Based on this info, Rudy probably figured he needed to blast through the window and inner shutter. Standing on the parking lot retaining wall it is about a 6-foot throw to reach the window. Rudy should have no trouble hitting his target from this distance. I think someone staging a break-in would have picked the nearest available, appropriately sized rock from the parking area (not the sloped area) and bashed the window from the inside.

From the crime photos, it appears that the rock hit the inner shutter close to the hinged side. Hitting this location would present a considerable amount of resistance to the rock causing it to stop its forward direction and ricochet to the left and drop to the floor. If the rock had hit closer to the latch side, it would have most likely continued its forward trajectory and landed somewhere in the middle of the floor. The reason for this additional resistance is due to the angular momentum (inertia) of the shutter (assumed to be solid wood, and near the same weight as the rock). To demonstrate this effect, take any unlatched door and push on it with one finger near the doorknob edge and notice the amount of force it takes to move open the door. Now do the exact same thing by pushing with one finger near the hinged side of the door. Notice how much more force is required to open the door (if you can actually do it).

I also was wondering where the rock came from. Again, it seems a bit large to be one of the stones used in the parking area. More likely is that it was found on the sloped area between the cottage and the parking area retaining wall. From the crime photos the parking area stones seem to be more gravel-like, and the sloped area seems to be somewhat rocky with light vegetation. It would have been nice if the police had combed the slope area to determine if it was the source of the rock. If the rock came from an area closer to the cottage side, we might conclude that someone came from inside the house. If the source were closer to the parking lot retaining wall, it would be more likely that someone coming from the lower window picked it up on the way to the retaining wall.

Yes - the physics you are referring to is torque, which is rotational force on a pivoting (or hinged) lever. The closer to the pivot point the force is applied, the higher the force needed to move the lever a given distance.

Like you, I believe that the dynamics of a rock thrown from the parking area are potentially consistent with the damage to the window and shutter, and the final position of the rock. The paper bag which the rock knocked over looks like it was originally sited directly underneath the middle of the window, slightly away from the wall. To me, it looks entirely feasible that the rock smashed the glass on the left side of the left pane (as viewed from inside), struck the bevelled edge of the interior shutter, deflected down and to the right, and knocked over the paper bag on its way to the floor - where, incidentally, a large chip broke off the rock as it hit the tiled floor.

 

[LondonJohn]

Could it possibly be "I see the light! I see the light!" in the ironic sense? In that case it would be an idiom for someone pretending they'd had a conversion.

If only we could hear an audio recording of the December interrogation..................

 

[katy_did]

Could it possibly be "I see the light! I see the light!" in the ironic sense? In that case it would be an idiom for someone pretending they'd had a conversion.

LOL. Not unless Amanda had a sudden fit of religious fervour mid-interrogation. (Darn this forum's American spell-checker. It always has me doubting I've spelled words correctly). I think 'flash' is just 'flash'.

The article says she repeated something she said in her handwritten note, and the only thing that seems to come close to 'flash' is what she mentions about 'flashbacks'. I think the early newspaper articles would definitely have been using the first translator's translation of what Amanda said, rather than the second translator's translation of what the first translator said Amanda said, so that's probably why it reads so oddly.

 

[RoseMontague]

Looks like it's plural, for one thing ("i" being plural "the"). So apparently Amanda was sitting there yelling "I see the flashes, I see the flashes". LOL. I wondered if it was some sort of idiom I don't know about, but I don't think so, I think it's just a very bizarre translation.

Since the article says Amanda repeated what she wrote in her handwritten note, I think you're right, it must be referring to the "flashbacks" she mentions there. So she was probably saying, in response to the questioning about the accusation of Patrick, that during the November 5/6 interrogation she had had "flashbacks" of Patrick as the murderer, and that's why she thought it could be true.

Here's an interesting bit from Amanda's testimony about the translator in that interrogation...


Quote:
CDV: Were you satisfied with the translation from Italian into English and
back, during the interrogation?

GCM: Excuse me, first can you explain if you were able to evaluate the
translation? Were you able to tell whether the translation was exact or
not? Whether it corresponded?

AK: No. I was quite frustrated with her, because she would take something
I said in a hundred words and say it in two, and then she used words that
weren't right, and then she forgot to tell me things that the pubblico
ministero had said. There was a lot of confusion.

CDV: How long did that interrogation last? Do you remember?

AK: At least six or seven hours.

CDV: Do you remember that the recording of the interrogation was then
translated by another person?

AK: I know it was translated, but I didn't know it was translated by another
person or the same one. I don't know.

CDV: And do you remember that it was necessary to translate also the
translator, the interpreter, this Giulia Clemish?

AK: [Laughing] Oh yes, true. Right.

CDV: So the interrogation that we have in the dossier is a translation
of the interrogation, and also of the translation made by that interpreter.

AK: Yes.

CDV: Who was German-speaking.

AK: Yes. It was a big mess.


No wonder she saw the flashes.

That is funny and also sadly typical of the whole investigation. If Amanda said something incriminating in this particular interrogation, it would be in the Massei report. It was just a prosecution leak designed to make Amanda look bad. Her lawyers claim that she maintained her innocence is the only truth you can derive from it. There were a lot of false news reports about Amanda. This is another one.

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

Interesting work. I think that many people on here believe that it was entirely possible for a person of Guede's build and athleticism to have entered through Filomena's window. I suspect that some people who believe the climb to be impossible are misled by the small size of the lower window below Filomena's (the one with the grating), and assume that the distances involved are considerably greater than they actually are.

Judge Micheli certainly seemed to be of the opinion that any reasonably fit person could have climbed up to Filomena's window. And it was actually a logical choice of entry window for a burglar. The windows directly alongside the road were far more visible to passing traffic from both directions (and also, I believe, had metal grates over them), while the balcony windows on the opposite side of the house afforded no opportunity for easy escape if there was someone inside the house. Plus, Filomena's testimony strongly suggests that the exterior shutters to her window were at least partially open that evening, giving any potential burglar a good reason to choose that particular window.

But I thought that was why he threw the rock through the window - to see if anyone responded before he entered. And how does Filomena's window allow for an easier escape? I can't figure how that would be true. I would think it would be far easier to scramble out and down a balcony in a hurry than to go back out Filomena's window and down to the ground in the event of the need for an easy escape. The window is one of the things that bothers me with the whole Rudy lone wolf theory.

 

[LondonJohn]

LOL. Not unless Amanda had a sudden fit of religious fervour mid-interrogation. (Darn this forum's American spell-checker. It always has me doubting I've spelled words correctly). I think 'flash' is just 'flash'.

The article says she repeated something she said in her handwritten note, and the only thing that seems to come close to 'flash' is what she mentions about 'flashbacks'. I think the early newspaper articles would definitely have been using the first translator's translation of what Amanda said, rather than the second translator's translation of what the first translator said Amanda said, so that's probably why it reads so oddly.

It does seem to be a "lost in translation" situation - which makes you wonder just how many communication difficulties Knox might have had to encounter in her dealings with the police and prosecutors.

Have you read the London Evening Standard article today, and the predictable comments section?

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...-a-theory-he-thinks-could-free-amanda-knox.do

And yeah, you must learn to trust your own superior spelling skills in favour (!) of the lesser American equivalents

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

I also was wondering where the rock came from. Again, it seems a bit large to be one of the stones used in the parking area. More likely is that it was found on the sloped area between the cottage and the parking area retaining wall. From the crime photos the parking area stones seem to be more gravel-like, and the sloped area seems to be somewhat rocky with light vegetation. It would have been nice if the police had combed the slope area to determine if it was the source of the rock. If the rock came from an area closer to the cottage side, we might conclude that someone came from inside the house. If the source were closer to the parking lot retaining wall, it would be more likely that someone coming from the lower window picked it up on the way to the retaining wall.

Excellent point - that would have been a nice thing to know when thinking out the various theories.

 

[katy_did]

That is funny and also sadly typical of the whole investigation. If Amanda said something incriminating in this particular interrogation, it would be in the Massei report. It was just a prosecution leak designed to make Amanda look bad. Her lawyers claim that she maintained her innocence is the only truth you can derive from it. There were a lot of false news reports about Amanda. This is another one.

Agreed, Rose. I think the only reliable source for what Amanda said is the audio released of the interrogation. Definitely not what the papers (relying on the translator) said she said.

 

[katy_did]

So the prosecutor brought in an Italian-German interpreter to translate into/from English? Incompetent or malevolent.........?

Funny thing is flashback in Italian is just 'flashback'. That translator must have been really crap.

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

Have you read the London Evening Standard article today, and the predictable comments section?

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...-a-theory-he-thinks-could-free-amanda-knox.do

This article claims she was stabbed "more than 40 times"!!!!!

 

[LondonJohn]

But I thought that was why he threw the rock through the window - to see if anyone responded before he entered. And how does Filomena's window allow for an easier escape? I can't figure how that would be true. I would think it would be far easier to scramble out and down a balcony in a hurry than to go back out Filomena's window and down to the ground in the event of the need for an easy escape. The window is one of the things that bothers me with the whole Rudy lone wolf theory.

There's no easy exit up to street level from the balcony side of the house, whereas it's easy to escape up the driveway to the main road from outside Filomena's window. And even though it's likely that any burglar would have waited after throwing the rock to see if there was any response from within the house, the burglar still would not be sure that there was nobody inside (an occupant hearing the window break might be too frightened to move or turn on lights etc). Burglars usually like to have easy escape routes in case of emergencies during entry. The other factor is that any burglar would have been very vulnerable to being spotted from outside while actually entering the house. If someone coming along the road or on the car park roof spotted the burglar mid-entry, and called out, the burglar would almost certainly prefer a fast and easy escape route. Filomena's window offered that, but the balcony window did not.

 

[colonelhall]

London John: "Have you read the London Evening Standard article today, and the predictable comments section? "

Yes, one would have predicted that many people would have been outraged at such a disgraceful piece of gutter journalism. How editors allow such nonsense to be published is beyond me. This really is sickening!

 

[Fine]

I think that entry through Filomena's window would present no problem to Rudy at all. I created scaled drawings of the cottage and Rudy to determine if it was feasible. By standing on the top rung of the lower window grate, Rudy could open the shutters, see through the window, and reach the window latch after breaking the window. The window sill would be a few inches below his arm pits and all he would need to push off with his right foot and pull himself up and through the window. This is the same maneuver we all use to get out of a swimming pool. I have a much more detailed explanation with the scaled drawings in pdf but the drawings and document are too large to post here. If anyone is interested in seeing it, send me a PM and will try to send it to you.

_____________________

Daydreamer,

Well, yeah, formally speaking that's exactly what the LONEWOLF would have had to, pull himself up till his butt or knees were on the window ledge. In a swimming pool, however, we can do that only because our bodies have much less weight, due to buoyancy. In effect, we're cheating. (And there was no flash flood in Perugia that night.) It would be easier, still, were we on the Space Shuttle, and for the same reason.

If this is such a routine maneuver---as some armchair mountaineers insist---why doesn't the defense spend a few thousand euros, build a replica of that wall + window (complete with nail), hire a rock climber, and film the ascent? Given the emphasis Massei gave to the staged burglary such a film would have a dramatic effect on the fresh judicial panel at the appeal. Right? And at a nominal cost in comparison to the other expenses. So what are they waiting for? Or, what am I missing?

///

 

[LondonJohn]

This article claims she was stabbed "more than 40 times"!!!!!

Yeah, it's inaccurate in several respects. Some of those inaccuracies may be down to the reporter, but I think Moore is wrong in some places.

I don't really know what to make of Steve Moore. He does seem to have embarked on a one-man mission, and does seem to be accepted a touch too credulously by certain journalists. However, he's ultimately only background noise in this case (just as we all are), it's just that his noise level is louder than most at the moment. His opinions should have no bearing either way upon the justice process in Perugia. But, judging by the comments section, who knew the Evening Standard was so widely read across North America.....

 

[Juror]

_____________________

Daydreamer,

Well, yeah, formally speaking that's exactly what the LONEWOLF would have had to, pull himself up till his butt or knees were on the window ledge. In a swimming pool, however, we can do that only because our bodies have much less weight, due to buoyancy. In effect, we're cheating. (And there was no flash flood in Perugia that night.) It would be easier, still, were we on the Space Shuttle, and for the same reason.

If this is such a routine maneuver---as some armchair mountaineers insist---why doesn't the defense spend a few thousand euros, build a replica of that wall + window (complete with nail), hire a rock climber, and film the ascent? Given the emphasis Massei gave to the staged burglary such a film would have a dramatic effect on the fresh judicial panel at the appeal. Right? And at a nominal cost in comparison to the other expenses. So what are they waiting for? Or, what am I missing?

///

Massei does not cite as one of his reasons for believing the break-in was staged the inability of an intruder to make the ascent and climb through the window.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

the mixed DNA in the bathroom

London John: "Have you read the London Evening Standard article today, and the predictable comments section? "

Yes, one would have predicted that many people would have been outraged at such a disgraceful piece of gutter journalism. How editors allow such nonsense to be published is beyond me. This really is sickening!

colonelhall,

I was surprised by the nonsensical comments of one anonymous commenter who wrote, "Amanda Knox's DNA is also co-mingled in spots of Meredith's blood in the bathroom in FIVE different places." Finding Amanda Knox's DNA in her own sink has to rank as the least surprising forensic result of the whole case. The simplest explanation is that Meredith's blood landed on Amanda's biological matter (hair, gum, or skin for example). Given Stefanoni's parsimonious glove-changing and curious theories about DNA contamination, it is not the only one, however.

 

[daydreamer]

_____________________

Daydreamer,

Well, yeah, formally speaking that's exactly what the LONEWOLF would have had to, pull himself up till his butt or knees were on the window ledge. In a swimming pool, however, we can do that only because our bodies have much less weight, due to buoyancy. In effect, we're cheating. (And there was no flash flood in Perugia that night.) It would be easier, still, were we on the Space Shuttle, and for the same reason.

If this is such a routine maneuver---as some armchair mountaineers insist---why doesn't the defense spend a few thousand euros, build a replica of that wall + window (complete with nail), hire a rock climber, and film the ascent? Given the emphasis Massei gave to the staged burglary such a film would have a dramatic effect on the fresh judicial panel at the appeal. Right? And at a nominal cost in comparison to the other expenses. So what are they waiting for? Or, what am I missing?

///

Your buoyancy comment is correct, but I am 62 years old and weigh about 50pounds more than Rudy (bad knees to boot!) and I have duplicated the maneuver on a retaining wall in our local park (pushing off with one leg) and luckily there was no flood. Not really that hard to do, give it a try. BTW, he would not need his knees at ledge height, just hips, I have scaled drawings if you are interested. PM me for details.