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Is there an "atheist perspective"?

All right. Allright! ALL RIGHT. :( Imagine, Christian, that we all throw in the towel and stop playing stupid dictionary games. Your definition is right! Way to go! You win!

Now what?
 
All right. Allright! ALL RIGHT. :( Imagine, Christian, that we all throw in the towel and stop playing stupid dictionary games. Your definition is right! Way to go! You win!

Now what?


Uh...

I'm beginning to surmise that telling people they're wrong about their own positions is his point.


What are you trying to do? Ruin the boy's fun? :D
 
I fit this Christian's definition of Atheist. I was sent to Sunday school and Church as a child and at around age 12 I thought about it all and concluded that I didn't actually believe any of it.

So what questions would you be asking in this survey that would try to determine whether or not Atheists shared a common perspective on things?
 
The original quote from you was a response to what Fiona said. You can click on the arrow to see your original post. Fiona described her mental processes and you described her conclusions as a "profound philosophical statement."

To me, that's not clarifying what she said, but adding weight to something that she was most decidedly stating was not important to her. (Something about "it doesn't matter all that much." That's the opposite of profound philosophical importance.)

It's like when you're trying to tell me that I go through these mental processes that I definitely am not experiencing from my viewpoint. This started way back when you said I was somehow "fighting" societal forces that compel most people to believe in the supernatural.

Maybe I can show you these mental processes via your previous posts. I going to cut and paste from your posts:

Obviously, you're trying to do something you think is clever, but after six pages, with everybody in agreement that matter and energy are sufficient for the existence of human beings, you still haven't moved your argument forward.

I never entertain thoughts that are so grammatically incorrect. It's not even an example of a question one could ask onself.

Here's a question for you: Why do you find consciousness and intelligence to somehow be apart from natural matter?

It doesn't. It tells you that as a human being, you are way too special to be just another component of matter in the universe. It tells you that an unexplained magical man made you with his unexplainable magical processes simply because he loves you. And because you're so dang special, you never need to answer where the magic man came from or how or why he creates his magic that makes people so much more special than planets or trees or tapeworms. You're allowed to look down upon those other people who use their brains to understand the world around them, because your knowledge comes from your heart. And everybody knows that hearts trump brains, no further explanations required.

First, Dawkins doesn't have a religion. He's an atheist.

Second, there's not a single religion anywhere in the world that emanates from someone with fundamental perfection. All religions are man-made, and mostly by men on the evil side of the good/evil spectrum. They used their religions to oppress and control others.

I know you think your Jesus fella was perfect, in spite of his misogyny and endorsement of slavery, and I know you think you're the only person in the world to currently display the same type of fundamental goodness/perfection. Which makes all the lying you do a-okay in your book. Do you really think that lying, bragging, and proud ignorance are traits of a perfect person?

Kahalachan, you seem to be hanging onto some twisted thread of Pascal's Wager. You say that you were a Christian but are now an atheist, yet you are clinging to the idea that there really might be a god - the Christian god - who will give you one last chance to avoid eternal torment, even though you've rejected him.

Is it fair to characterize the line of thinking from your OP as, "I've rejected the Christian god, but on the very off-chance if he does exist, his sense of justice and righteousness will give me one millisecond of time to see him and allow me to accept him, as opposed to kicking me straight to hell. There's nothing in the bible to say he couldn't do this, so I wonder what my fellow atheists will think, because I bet some of them are just as worried as I am."

If somebody's worried about god giving them another chance, then I wouldn't classify that person as an atheist. I don't worry about what god might do for me when I die, any more than I worry about what Superman might do for me if I accidentally drive my car over a bridge.

That's not a reasonable assumption to make.

Further, who or what established the being capable of creating all these large and sophisticated things? Was it even larger and more sophisticated? And then what created that creator's creator? Something even larger and more sophisticated, etc. etc.? We're just currently the bottom rung of the ladder of increasing stupidity. Gotcha.

When I attended the University of Washington in the early 80s, there was a young man who sat on the steps of Red Square, rocking back and forth and bellowing out the bible in a loud monotone, nearly every day of the week for around two years. He just sat there, rocking and bellowing, rocking and bellowing; not preaching, not engaging, just rocking and bellowing. Some friends and I did finally catch his attention enough to learn that he was associated with the local Maranatha house, but if we asked questions about his purpose in preaching, he just yelled out random bible verses.

He wasn't ever preaching to anybody other than himself, and it was a sad, pitiful sight.

It didn't make me love his Jesus, and it didn't make me hate him either. He was just another example of a christian existence I wanted no part of.

Who's rejecting him? Just because somebody doesn't believe that he's the actual biological son of some magical deity, with the power to send people to an eternity of either torment or boredom, doesn't mean that we're rejecting him.

There are thousands of gods and other mythical beings out there. Am I rejecting Paul Bunyon or Superman because I don't believe that their super powers are real? Add hundreds of thousands of other fictional characters, and you'll quickly realize that most people don't have the time to read the red-lettered words of every single one. It doesn't matter to me what Jesus said. I've read most of it, and even did some reading this past week when I was on vacation (won't make that mistake again - I don't remember the new testament being that boring, it was like an overload of yrreg). It's not interesting. It's not compelling. His particular mythology is not only nonsensical, but morally repugnant as well. I don't care that he occasionally said some "nice" things when his whole religious premise is pure evil.

Which is why he revealed himself directly to the people of China, North America, South America, Africa, and the Arctic.

Wait.

If your god had actually done this, and revealed himself in the same way to all the peoples of the world, so that when they finally got together in the time of global communication and compared notes, there would be something to it. But no. The people in India, Japan, China, Africa, Norway, etc. all had their own mythologies, which had nothing to do with Judaism or Jesus.


p.s. Pascal's Wager? Seriously? Okay. I'll humor you and ask some advice:

A self-proclaimed psychic lady down the street told me that I would die a fiery death if I took the freeway home from work, and advised me to take the side streets instead. So I take the side streets. After all, if she's right, she's saved me from certain death, and if she's wrong, she's only cost me a few minutes of my time.

The problem. Another male psychic told me to avoid the back roads and take the freeway to avoid a fatal car crash. What to do what to do....I guess that in order to be safe, I'll shut myself inside and devote my entire life to indulging in superstitious rituals and just avoid driving altogether. Is that the correct answer to my dilemma? If not, why not? If so, then why?

Why not say, "I believe that for the creator of the earth and everything in it -- tsunamis, tapeworms, bubonic plague, influenza, volcanoes, you, me, and the babies born with cleft palates, anencephaly, and spina bifida -- seeing to it that he gets his book to us, etc." Why is it always sunshine and rainbows, and never the tornadoes and droughts that he gets the credit for? For every fluffy kitten, there are thousands of fleas, lice, and intestinal worms waiting to devour him.

Then who cares? If it's undetectable, why pretend that it might be there? Are you going to pretend that god cares who gets life or who gets death? If he did, you'd think that people of varying faiths and characters would have vastly different chances of surviving diseases, accidents, and natural disasters, yet that's never been the case.


These quotes show deep thought on the reasons of your atheism. A true mental process is shown here. This is because the category "deities are real" is gone. The only category with regards to deities is the "imaginary things".
 
What if those people don't know this, but are just asserting it. Show me some proof. Shermer is not a scientist. He gave up after getting a Master's in psychology and trouped off to to Philosophy Camp.
In Why We Are Hardwired for Belief in God, Shermer gives the expanded version (with references) of the WSJ article previously noted. trueslant.com/michaelshermer/2010/04/16/why-we-are-hardwired-for-belief-in-god/ His education is given on his website. michaelshermer.com/about-michael/curriculum-vitae/
  • Ph.D. Claremont Graduate School: 1991 History of Science (Dissertation: Alfred Russel Wallace and the Evolution of Man. Ann Arbor, MI: UMI Dissertation Information Service)
  • M.A. California State University, Fullerton: 1978 Experimental Psychology
  • B.A. Pepperdine University: 1976 Psychology/Biology

Donald E. Brown is a Professor of Anthropology (emeritus) at the University of California (UC) Santa Barbara. His degrees are given on his website. don.chubrown.com/curriculum-vitae He is known for his work on universals of human nature. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Brown_(anthropologist)

I am perfectly well aware of it: but the fact that I exist refutes it: it is not a "universal of the mind" so far as I can see: if you lived in the more secular parts of europe I doubt you could even entertain that thought
If belief is a "universal of the mind" as some contend, wouldn't your not fitting in lend substance to the OP idea that atheists have something different in their brains?

But once you have heard of it, there is a mental process involved in deciding whether or not to believe what you heard to be true, or more precisely how much weight to assign the probability that it was true.

If he has heard your explanations of how you came to consider yourself atheist and says that yes, you qualify by his definition, why are you insisting that you don't meet his definition?
I agree. I think, in this thread, that there is a strong resistance to any kind of categorization or classification of atheist, no matter how broad or how narrow. Maybe because one of the suggested traits of atheist is "not a joiner.":rolleyes:

You keep giving specific examples. I'm not talking about specific examples but the "whole category". Humans think in categories. You have eliminated a whole category in your brain. That takes consideration, thought. Of course items in the category alone can be nothing, but not the whole category.

I understand. But this is not what you did. You eliminated a complete category. That takes thought, profound thought. Further, every time items in the category are mention you have to make mental adjustments, however small they may be.

My point is this: to satisfy my criteria all you need is to have a mental process that concluded the whole category does not exist. You satisfy this criteria.
Is it your contention that belief is an innate characteristic of humans, and that the elimination, by whatever route, of the "whole catergory" of belief means the eliminator has a difference in the brain?
 
Is it your contention that belief is an innate characteristic of humans, and that the elimination, by whatever route, of the "whole catergory" of belief means the eliminator has a difference in the brain?

I think that human brains have this system of inference. It is this system that tricks humans into accepting explanations of the supernatural, specially entities. But, not all people seem to go this route. There is percentage of the population that is not tricked by the built in inference system, for whatever reason. And it is not an either or, it might have degrees trick avoidance. Some people are not fool at all. Some are fooled much more.

The only way to work the problem is backwards. We have to find common traits that will show this difference.

What are the common traits that show this untrickiness? Skepticism, being contrarian, aversion to be categorized, atheism, higher IQ.

Do you see what I mean?
 
I think that human brains have this system of inference. It is this system that tricks humans into accepting explanations of the supernatural, specially entities. But, not all people seem to go this route. There is percentage of the population that is not tricked by the built in inference system, for whatever reason. And it is not an either or, it might have degrees trick avoidance. Some people are not fool at all. Some are fooled much more.

The only way to work the problem is backwards. We have to find common traits that will show this difference.

What are the common traits that show this untrickiness? Skepticism, being contrarian, aversion to be categorized, atheism, higher IQ.

Do you see what I mean?
I think I see what you're trying to say. I don't know much except what I've been reading here and in online searches about some of the ideas, so I have no idea whether or not it's valid, but I think it's interesting.

By the way, I wouldn't think "atheism" would count as a trait. It is what the traits lead to, isn't it?:)
 
Christian, is there actually a point coming anytime soon?

You seem to think that there is something different about atheists and that some sort of survey will prove your point. Just get on with the survey, analyse your data and then your point will be subject to further discussion or discarded as falsified.

It's really not rocket science.

If you do not intend to develop and conduct any sort of survey, just say so, and we can all go home, and this exercise in mental masturbation can end. look, maybe you have a point, and maybe not. Maybe atheists are somewhat different to evertybody else. But then so is everybody else different from everybody else, so you may have a trivial point.

Bottom line: Why is this important to you in any way shape or form?

That's all I care about.

Norm
 
I think I see what you're trying to say. I don't know much except what I've been reading here and in online searches about some of the ideas, so I have no idea whether or not it's valid, but I think it's interesting.

By the way, I wouldn't think "atheism" would count as a trait. It is what the traits lead to, isn't it?:)

Yes, I understand, I want to show that what unifies it all is the brain. But atheism something I can clearly identify the group by. This is like the given trait. Know what I mean?
 
Christian, is there actually a point coming anytime soon?

You seem to think that there is something different about atheists and that some sort of survey will prove your point. Just get on with the survey, analyse your data and then your point will be subject to further discussion or discarded as falsified.

It's really not rocket science.

If you do not intend to develop and conduct any sort of survey, just say so, and we can all go home, and this exercise in mental masturbation can end. look, maybe you have a point, and maybe not. Maybe atheists are somewhat different to evertybody else. But then so is everybody else different from everybody else, so you may have a trivial point.

Bottom line: Why is this important to you in any way shape or form?

That's all I care about.

Norm

Let's go home. No survey is no the way. Yes mental masturbation, after all. It is important to me, but not in any way that is bad for atheists. The importance might just be so inclimating, I understand. I wanted to validate my method of thinking about this idea. It went completely in directions I didn't expect.

On other post I will try not to create a so charged scenario, and still see if my framework works and is interesting.
 
Let's go home. No survey is no the way. Yes mental masturbation, after all. It is important to me, but not in any way that is bad for atheists. The importance might just be so inclimating, I understand. I wanted to validate my method of thinking about this idea. It went completely in directions I didn't expect.

On other post I will try not to create a so charged scenario, and still see if my framework works and is interesting.

See the bolded part. You have not explained why it is important and your subsequent word salad in the above post does not clarify anything. The whole thing is trivial to me at least, but other members of the Board may disagree. Look, you may have something that is true, good bad or otherwise for atheists. You have utterly failed to articulate this.

So, unless you can show that it is something that actually matters, it is only trivially true if it is, and nobody here has suggested otherwise, and unless you tell us what you really mean and want to acheive in clear plain language, and what you actually want to study, this thread will continue to meander on as a Seinfeld thread.

Norm
 
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I think as a result of this thread, all atheists do have a view in common. But if we post it, we'll be banned. :(
 
We could survey 1,000 people (randomly picked around the world. We would survey more than 1,000 but would only consider the answers of those who are atheist, to mask the survey). We would have our same size control group where the common trait be something else. Then we would look for common traits.

Ignoring for a moment the ignorant repetition of discussing atheists as something other than part of the general populace, your immediate premise is flawed. You want to find out if atheists share common traits other than their atheism. You would issue surveys and - by your own words - discard those against which you should set any kind of comparitive analysis. Then you introduce a further 'control group' which has an existing, pre-identified other common trait. You have already determined your conclusion, and are working your surveys to attain that.

Even if you were to ever understand the definition of atheism as has been clearly explained to you several times, your actual proposed excercise is pre-set to conclude whatever you want it to.
 
I really don't understand why you seem to think that all atheists have rejected the idea of gods.

I have never believed. My parents were atheists, and so were both sets of grandparents. I loved mythology as a child, preferably Greek and Norse, and gods, heroes and monsters were often my bedtimes stories. I never believed in those gods, although I enjoyed the stories immensely, and when I later read the Bible, I had the same reaction to that, except that I found it far more boring than my favourite mytologies. The first time I actually met someone I realised was religious, was when I was six, and started school in Jönköping (a town often referred to as the Jerusalem of Sweden, because of its many churches of different protestant denominations), and my teacher expected everyone to believe. It seemed very surprising to me that an adult would believe in what I considered bedtime stories, but it wasn't something that I gave much thought. All adults were a bit strange, after all. She was kind to me, in spite of my failings in the religious department. She probaly pitied the little heathen:D

There has never been a point in my life when I have analysed, and rejected, religion. That I am an atheist is simply a fact to me, the same way it is a fact that I am Swedish, and female. It's not something I have to analyse, accept or reject; it's just what I am. I no more needed to accept/reject the Christian god, than I needed to accept/reject Zeus. I understand that you feel atheists ought to examine their lack of beliefs, since so many people do believe in some god, or gods, but why? I wouldn't change any other opinions just on the basis that the majority of the world's population hold other views. would you change your religious beliefs just because other faiths have more believers?

Anecdote time: When my first father died, my mother was clever enough to get me my second one;) He was an atheist as well, but he had come by it the hard way, since his father was a vicar. He had believed unquestioningly till his early teens, and then struggled for years, both mentally, and with his father, before he realised and accepted that his faith was gone. There were no similarities in how we became atheists. There were actually not many similarities in how we WERE atheists either. To me, it was a fact of life, to him it was a constant struggle and a hard earned position. For him, religion remained a bête noir all his life, since there was alawsy a sense that he had betrayed his father (the vicar, not the god one). He couldn't find it in him to enter a church lightly, while to me a church has as little significance as any other temple, Acropolis, for instance. (No, I'll take that back, Acroplis has far more signicance for me...) Temples are often beautiful and culturally interesting buildings full of art, but that is all. To my father, they were forbididng, and conjured forth an avalanche of difficult memories. I have fond memories of my father struggling to enter a church for a concert - you could read the conflicting emotions in his body laguage.

Now, we were alike in many ways, but that was related to cultural factors, likes and dislikes, and perhaps to political opinions. Not to some quirk in our characters that led us to atheism. He would better suit the ideas you have of atheists, because he had in fact rejected the god of his childhood. His sisters had not, however. They were both believers, but very different from each other. His older sister was as close to a fundamentalist as you would ever get in the Church of Sweden; strict, judgmental and unforgiving. His younger sister was the opposite; kind, forgiving, and quick to love. I would never presume to say that their theism was the same, just because they believed in the same god. The belief was all that was similar. Just as the disbelief is all you can assume that two atheists share.
 
Ignoring for a moment the ignorant repetition of discussing atheists as something other than part of the general populace, your immediate premise is flawed. You want to find out if atheists share common traits other than their atheism. You would issue surveys and - by your own words - discard those against which you should set any kind of comparitive analysis. Then you introduce a further 'control group' which has an existing, pre-identified other common trait. You have already determined your conclusion, and are working your surveys to attain that.

Even if you were to ever understand the definition of atheism as has been clearly explained to you several times, your actual proposed excercise is pre-set to conclude whatever you want it to.

Some who actually is reading the thread, very good. No, you got it wrong. For the survey to be statistically valid I can't, before hand tell atheists that they are being surveyed (targeted) and they can't know the purpose of the survey. This would nullify ther resulteds. So, the survey would go out to the general population (atheists and theists alike), this would mask the targeting. Further, the survey have the pretense of any other type of purpose. Since what we really want is the responses of atheists, within the survey questions relating to religion would be asked, in such a way as to satisfy the definition of atheists (someone who has rejected the concept or idea of deities).

Once the filter has been accomplished, we can randomly select our test group and compare responses.

My point is that that is a valid framework to test the hypothesis whether atheists have common traits. The null hypothesis (what most here claim, a priori, and very forcefully) would be reject if there are statiscally relevant common traits. This would show evidence that atheist do have traits in common.

But, we would not be done. That would only be half the work. With this, we have not proven that these common traits are because some human brains are wired different than the rest of the population. Now, it is impossible to get suggestion or for posters here to help with modeling or testing. You are one of the few who are actually discussing or critiquing metholodogy, which the real contribution to the thread (or even the validity of the framework of a test)
 

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