• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

Status
Not open for further replies.
But Barbie's book was released first.

1) Do not believe I ever said anything about who was in fact first out, but rather only about the rush to be first.

2) I discussed the detrimental results of a rush without seeing need to cite first across the finish line.

Your above statement in no way detracts from anything I said about the rush.

It was as you note above unsuccessful, and as I originally said a probable causal factor for the many inaccuracies and hastily concocted factually deficient novel like scenarios that I saw upon reading the entire book.
 
Last edited:
I am struck by her need to write down on paper in order to clear her mind of confusion.


Really. Do tell.

There is a real split at work here; she is psychologically decompensating and asks for a paper and pen with which to create a new, controllable reality.


Ah, yes. That's exactly what I was thinking.

I find this last attempt of a drowning woman desperate to grasp the life raft a remarkable example of our instinct for self preservation in the face of all odds.


My goodness. Well, I have to agree that Amanda was definitely facing all odds, and then some.
 
So not reporting witnessing a crime after the event is illegal in Italian law?

Being present at a crime and not doing anything to prevent it or report it makes one party to it. But Amanda did more then that, in her statement Amanda claimed to have facilitated it by taking Patrick to the cottage to 'have some fun with Meredith, because he wanted her'. Moreover, she did not inform the police of this when they questioned her in previous days and instead lied to them by saying she wasn't at the cottage (witnesses do not have the right to lie). That is the situation the police were presented with on the night of the 5th.
 
1) Do not believe I ever said anything about who was in fact first out, but rather only about the rush to be first.

2) I discussed the detrimental results of a rush without seeing need to cite first across the finish line.

Your above statement in no way detracts from anything I said about the rush.

It was as you note above unsuccessful, and as I originally said a probable causal factor for the many inaccuracies and hastily concocted factually deficient novel like scenarios that I saw upon reading the entire book.


Where is your evidence that there was a rush?
 
I didn't request you evidence the interview took place, only that you evidence that Quintavalle struggled to remember it, or hid it in some way (which I saw as being the implicit assertion in your post).

Just catching up, and I see a lot of catching up to do.

I provided you his testimony regarding the video, the part where he says he would not do an interview and told them to leave and that it was filmed in secret. The contrast to his words is the interview itself. To be generous, I credit him with a total memory fail on this rather than just being a liar.
 
But had not been made a formal witness.

You also have to prove that he lied.

Citation please. He is referred to as a witness in the Massei report. He was questioned by police. I don't believe your apparent claim that some kind of formal process is necessary for someone to become a witness. Please provide a citation for this.

You now claim it's necessary to prove that he lied. That's not what you said originally. You said witnesses did not have the right to remain silent. Quintavalle did remain silent about seeing a murder suspect in his shop the morning after the murder for a whole year, because, in his own words, 'he considered the fact to be insignificant'.
 
Last edited:
and here you go Mary, Ruling from the High Court:

Arguing from these principles, the statements you made at 1.45 can only be used contra alios (against another person).
As a result of those statements, the interrogation was suspended and you became "indagata"(a suspect).
The "spontaneous statements" made at 5.45 am are not admissible against you or against other suspects because you had already become "indagata" and you did not have legal protection.
But, the memoir you wrote was a spontaneous defensive act and is admissible against you.


AMANDA: Q & A WITH THE SUPREME COURT

Spontaneous = voluntary

The two terms are interchangeable and mean the same thing.

And I also have to correct myself. The High Court in fact ruled the 1:45 statement COULD be used, but only against others.
 
Right. Context matters. I grant you this. If Rudy was a paramedic called to the scene, his bloody fingerprint wouldn't mean much.

But context - which I would better call a defensive explanation, or version - is not limited to this case. Even if Rudy gave a credible account of facts, on the dinamic and the name of the perpetrator, he could have been believed.

You haven't answered my question regarding the footprints in the hallway: what evidence shows that they were made with blood?

No I have not aswered because this schematization requires a more complex post. I can say in advance that this would be based a set including the points: 1. no possible alternative substance detected among the houshold chemicals in the apartment and failure by the defence to indicate any; 2. (logical) analogy, on fundamental unusual features, beteween the bathmat print and the hallway print (isolated not in trail surrounded by clean floor; bare foot; rinsed/diluted quality ot the tracks detected in both cases); 3. visual evidence/measurements indicate prints on the hallway are by more than one person; 4. seize and measurements correspondance between one of the hallway prints and the bathmat print (the same shape and size: weakness of Vinci's explanation); 5. presence of latent statins enhanced by luminol yielding a mixed Amanda/Meredith's profile in Filomena's room (extremly low probability for such a coincidence); 6. presence of an analogue mixed dna profile in one of the hallway latent stains; 7. presence of luminescent substance in addition to the prints and independent from them (this wide positive area has implications in the logical explanation about how the prints were produced); 8. the timings of Amanda's account about her "bahtmat shuffle"; 9. position of the hallway prints in the corridoor; 10. analogy between Amanda's luminol footprints in her room and the hallway prints; 11. general properties of alternative chemicals (bleach, natural enzymes, etc) and actual properties of tests.
 
Last edited:
Citation please. He is referred to as a witness in the Massei report. He was questioned by police. I don't believe your apparent claim that some kind of formal process is necessary for someone to become a witness. Please provide a citation for this.

You now claim it's necessary to prove that he lied. That's not what you said originally. You said witnesses did not have the right to remain silent. Quintavalle did remain silent about seeing a murder suspect in his shop the morning after the murder for a whole year, because, in his own words, 'he considered the fact to be insignificant'.

Yes, because when he came forward a year later to police he became a witness.

But you were trying to argue he behaved the same as Amanda are you not? Maybe I was mistaken in that.

Quintevalle was only asked about whether he'd seen Raffaele, not Amanda (and yes, yes, I know that's going to bring screams...but that is the case until and unless otherwise is proven in court during the appeal).
 
Yes, because when he came forward a year later to police he became a witness.

But you were trying to argue he behaved the same as Amanda are you not? Maybe I was mistaken in that.

Quintevalle was only asked about whether he'd seen Raffaele, not Amanda (and yes, yes, I know that's going to bring screams...but that is the case until and unless otherwise is proven in court during the appeal).

You haven't provided the citation I asked for. Why is that? The Massei report says nothing about him not being a witness when he was originally questioned. Please provide a citation as to when somebody becomes a witness in Italian law.
 
I never indicated I would not use Nadeau as a source, I have done so on occasion. My comment was regarding Fulcanelli's constant rejoinders about sources, if that source favored innocence then at least to me it seemed that he would find reason not to trust that source and dismissing the argument based on that. I like some sources better than others myself and I think the possible bias of a source has to be balanced with some caveat.

I like Frank as a source because I like Frank and I enjoy his style of writing. I don't like PMF as a source anymore because they have insulted me and done so while preventing me from responding to those insults directly. I like Candace as a source because she is more detailed and is better at "sourcing" her material. Nadeau seems to me to be less about the details and more about characterizations and generalities. These are just personal preferences and opinions. When Fulcanelli says that nobody values a certain source or "we" don't trust someone as a source I believe that is in many cases not correct, simply because my opinion is different yet somehow included (as if by royal mandate) in that "we". We can certainly debate the value of a source and a particular cite from that source without making blanket assumptions about other poster's opinions on a particular source.
 
I'm sorry you find my comments boring. Perhaps I should point out that you have no obligation to read them, much less respond. But since you did respond, I will do likewise.

It happens that others besides ourselves are concerned with the problem of resolving anecdotal information into something that is generally useful. One such individual is Gregg McCrary, a retired FBI agent who contributed to a book called Criminal Investigative Failures. McCrary has studied confessions to figure out how it is possible to determine whether they are true or false. His conclusion is as follows:

To be considered reliable, a confession must have both internal and external validity; that is, it must be consistent with itself and with the external evidence. Professional law enforcement investigators understand that a confession is not an end to the investigation, as it must then be subjected to a vigorous follow-up investigation. A true confession typically contains a wealth of specific details that not only are consistent with the crime and the crime scene, but also includes new information beyond what is known by investigators. A confession's validity is strengthened through corroboration; it is weakend when the evidence does not support its claims.

With that in mind, here are Amanda's statements of November 6, 2007.

1:45: Last Thursday 1st November, day on which I usually work, while I was in the apartment of my boyfriend Raffaele, at about 20.30 I received a message from Patrick on my mobile, telling me that that evening the pub would remain closed because there were no people, therefore I didn’t have to go to work.
I replied to the message saying that we would meet immediately, therefore I went out telling my boyfriend that I had to go to work. I wish to state first that in the afternoon I had smoked a joint with Raffaele, therefore I felt confused because I do not usually make use of narcotics nor harder drugs.
I met Patrick soon after at the basketball court of Piazza Grimana and we went home. I do not remember if Meredith was already there or if she came later. I find it difficult to remember those moments but Patrick had sex with Meredith with whom he was infatuated but I do not remember well if Meredith had been threatened before. I vaguely remember that he killed her.


5:45: I wish to relate spontaneously what happened because these events have deeply bothered me and I am really afraid of Patrick, the African boy who owns the pub called “Le Chic” located in Via Alessi where I work periodically. I met him in the evening of November 1st 2007, after sending him a reply message saying “I will see you”. We met soon after at about 21.00 at the basketball court of Piazza Grimana. We went to my apartment in Via della Pergola n. 7. I do not clearly remember if Meredith was already at home or if she came later, what I can say is that Patrick and Meredith went into Meredith’s room, while I think I stayed in the kitchen. I cannot remember how long they stayed together in the room but I can only say that at a certain point I heard Meredith screaming and as I was scared I plugged up my hears. Then I do not remember anything, I am very confused. I do not remember if Meredith was screaming and if I heard some thuds too because I was upset, but I imagined what could have happened.

Let's itemize the assertions in these statements and score their accuracy according to what we know.

1:45:

1. Patrick told Amanda not to come to work because the pub would remain closed. T/F: False, because we know now that he was there all night and the place was open.

2. Amanda told Raffaele she was leaving to go to work. T/F: False, according to the authorities, because Raffaele is in prison too.

3. Amanda smoked a joint in the afternoon with Raffaele. T/F: True.

4. Amanda does not usually make use of narcotics or harder drugs. T/F: True if you believe her and the people who know her; false if you believe Peter Quennell.

5. Amanda met Patrick at the basketball court. T/F: False.

6. Amanda went to her apartment with Patrick. T/F: False.

7. Amanda doesn't remember if Meredith was home or came home later. T/F: Unknown.

8. Patrick had sex with Meredith. T/F: False.

9. Patrick killed Meredith. T/F: False.


5:45:

10. Amanda is afraid of Patrick. T/F: Unknown.

11. Patrick owns a pub. T/F: True.

12. Patrick and Meredith went into Meredith's room. T/F: False.

13. Amanda stayed in the kitchen. T/F: Unknown.

14. Amanda heard Meredith scream. T/F: Unknown.

15. Amanda plugged her ears. T/F: Unknown.

16. Amanda doesn't remember anything after the point where she plugged her ears. T/F: Unknown.

17. Amanda doesn't remember if she heard any thuds. T/F: Unknown.

18. Amanda imagined what could have happened. T/F: Unknown.

Of these 18 assertions, seven are known to be false. Two or three are known to be true, but they don't relate to what happened that night. The rest may or may not be true, depending on what you think happened. I am curious therefore - what exactly in these statements strikes you as having the ring of truth? Do you think McCrary would vouch for the authenticity of these statements? Or do you think McCrary is just another phony who should be dismissed out of hand, like Paul Ciolino and Steve Moore?

Charlie Wilkes, this is an excelent post!

And watching the writhing evasive responses it caused it hit hard and on target.
There is no question that no matter how you twist and spin it from the legal standpoint (which Mignini skillfully did) the confession bears all the characteristics of a coerced internalized false confession. Most importantly it lacks details regarding the crime apart from those obviously fed by the investigators - the meeting with Lumumba is something only someone who misunderstood Amanda's SMS could come up with.

edit: Even the fact they fed her - meeting Lumumba, which they "knew to be true" at that time were later shown to be false.
Thus Amanda's confession contains only the theory of the crime that ILE believed at the time.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by Fulcanelli
Okay, enough whining:

PROSECUTOR GIULIANO MIGNINI E-MAIL

Well thank you Fulcanelli! Very good stuff.

Well, FINALLY. THANK you.

I do see Mignini's statement in his e-mail to Linda Byron. However, I recall a claim that, "It isn't being made in blogland, it was made in the courts and in the legal documentation."

Got any of that?

The link to the report Fulcanelli referenced can be picked up at the referenced post of Mary_H.
 
Last edited:
and here you go Mary, Ruling from the High Court:

AMANDA: Q & A WITH THE SUPREME COURT

Spontaneous = voluntary

The two terms are interchangeable and mean the same thing.

And I also have to correct myself. The High Court in fact ruled the 1:45 statement COULD be used, but only against others.


Ah, all right, I see that you have provided something from the court records. Thank you.

It's still a bit unclear. Amanda (or her lawyer) says, "They used the statements I made at 1.45 am on November 6 when I did not have the presence of an attorney to defend me. I was questioned again at 5.45 am and gave "spontaneous statements," but these are not admissible due to the status I had acquired in the mean time."

I am not sure how something can be both the result of questioning and the result of spontaneity, and I don't see anything right off the bat about Amanda demanding to be heard. At any rate, given that the 5:45 statement was ruled inadmissible, it appears somebody asked Amanda some questions when they shouldn'ta oughta done that.

Anyhoo, it's after 5:30 in the morning here and I am starting to forget what we were arguing about. :p I will hand the mantle to my respected fellow innocentisti. It's been fun and a great workout, Fulc! :)
 
I have posted this a couple of times before, and I think it's time to post it again... a summary of the confessions made by the Norfolk Four, who were pardoned last year after spending several years in prison:

Suspect 1 (Danial Williams) is arrested and makes confession, naming no accomplices. But perp DNA doesn't match Suspect 1. So...

Suspect 2 (Joseph Dick) is arrested and makes confession, naming Williams as his accomplice. But perp DNA doesn't match Suspect 2. So...

Suspect 3 (Eric Wilson) is arrested and makes confession, naming Williams and Dick as his accomplices. But perp DNA doesn't match Suspect 3. So...

Suspect 4 (Derek Tice) is arrested and makes confession, naming Williams, Dick, and Wilson as his accomplices. But perp DNA doesn't match Suspect 4. So...

Three more suspects are arrested, none of whose DNA matches the perp, but they refuse to confess.

Eventually, the guy who did it, who is in jail for something else, confesses. His DNA matches the perp. So...

The authorities mount a full-court press to convict ALL their suspects, because to do otherwise would be to admit they made a mistake.

Do you see the pattern here? These guys didn't know who did it. They told the cops what the cops wanted to hear.

It is frightening how easy they got 4 false confessions in a row, and not from a bunch of naive 20 years old girls.
 
4) Main Point of my Post was that I submit that Nadeau particularly is more qualified to write about the case than Dempsey and subsequently a more credible citation.

4A Unlike Dempsey's spotty trial attendance record, Nadeau attended every session cite: see above Angel Face.
5B) Unlike Dempsey, Nadeau speaks very fluent Italian, did not require services of Interpreter, surrogate trial attendee, and assistant writer.
cite: see Alagna suggestions above.

Pilot Padron,

Ms. Nadeau made a number of factual errors in her book, which makes the notion that she is more qualified a dubious one. Speaking Italian fluently is neither a necessary nor a sufficent criterion for writing a good book on this case. In any case Ms. Nadeau is not the only person covering this case who is fluent. Ann Wise is bilingual, and I have found far fewer errors in her work than in Ms. Nadeau's.

What you assert in 4A is factually wrong. Ms. Dempsey has no professional relationship with Alagna, and she does not have an assistant writer or an interpreter.

It is a pleasure to offer corrections to someone whom I know will not be offended by someone else setting the record straight.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom