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Obama's Gitmo Policy Coming Home To Roost

False. Waterboarding was used to find out what they knew about planned attacks. Any other information gained would be secondary.
Again, I must ask what drooling moron told you that torture yields reliable intelligence?

And why do you so hate the principles that set America apart from Red China in the bad old days or the Third Reich?

Yeah, that Bush, he's bad news. You don't want to try to stand up to him, even if you're the majority party in congress and he's destroying the country. He rides a bike, you know. Tough. If you had a pair of boots made out of that, they'd last the rest of your life.

I'm over sixty, partly disabled, and I ride a bike, and I think he's a freaking wussie boy and a coward and a moron.
 
Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.
It's one thing to be willing to sacrifice your own liberty for security. But too many people want to destroy other people's liberty for their own security.
 
It's one thing to be willing to sacrifice your own liberty for security. But too many people want to destroy other people's liberty for their own security.
I consider both to be disgusting.
 
Again, I must ask what drooling moron told you that torture yields reliable intelligence?

And what drooling moron told you that intelligence is or can be inherently reliable in the first place?

And what drooling moron told you that intelligence needs to be reliable in order to be actionable? If a terrorist says a certain building is going to be blown up, would you need to feel the terrorist is 100% truthful before you would take preventive measures?

And why do you so hate the principles that set America apart from Red China in the bad old days or the Third Reich?

Why do you hate facts you can't use to further your agenda?

I do not hate the principles that set America apart simply because I correct your overtly deceitful disinformation.

Since you want to play that silly little game.

I'm over sixty, partly disabled, and I ride a bike, and I think he's a freaking wussie boy and a coward and a moron.

I find your failure to see the obvious humor in my remarks...disturbing.

wheeze...wheeze
 
But then what is the recourse for collecting evidence illegally?

By punishing those who collected the evidence illegally. But not retroactively. And don't punish the entire legal system and the entire society.

What protection does the individual have? It would seem that the bill of rights would become meaningless without that recourse.

Punish those who violate the individual's rights. But not retroactively. And don't punish the entire legal system and the entire society.

again, I agree. except that what does it mean about our freedoms to allow people to be treated outside the law?

Maybe you shouldn't worry your pretty little head about it. People who are willing to sacrifice security for freedom deserve neither. You may yet learn, perhaps the hard way, that there is no freedom in insecurity. The need to be constantly taking measures to cover your ass takes away all your freedom. Keeping body and soul together in an insecure, dangerous environment is a full time job. Ain't no freedom in it.

No, don't go spastic yet. I'm just playing your silly platitude game.

Seriously, you're just going to have to live with the risk of the president having the power to carry out extrajudicial actions. You, of all people, shouldn't have a problem living with that small risk. After all, you're just sacrificing a tiny bit of security for more freedom from terrorist attacks.

If you can't even handle that, well, I find that "disgusting".

But here you assume that all captured are INDEED actually declared enemy combatants. Some held at gitmo weren't. Without the promise of due process, such errors can not be corrected in a timely manner.

So? Give them due process, if and only if they are not captured on the battlefield or caught in the act of committing a hostile act, or captured in any situation which would positively identify them as enemy.

The rub is in your cowboy generalization of the situation.

Well. You're just an uptight little dude, aren't you. Not at all the big, brave freedom fighter you posed as.

Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

And those who would mouth disapproving platitudes completely unrelated to my quite reasonable suggestion that kicking some terrorist ass wouldn't be a bad idea, are extremely annoying, uptight individuals who seem to be very paranoid that they will be wrongly seized and hauled off to Gitmo where they will languish until they die.

Perhaps you can prevail on Leftie to pray to his eternal-torture-god that you will be spared.

Other than that advice, I can't really help you. And don't really want to.
 
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False. Waterboarding was used to find out what they knew about planned attacks. Any other information gained would be secondary.



Oh? And where were the democrats while super-Bush was singlehandedly destroying the superpower? Cowering in a corner like perfect little frightened angels?

Case in point: what male prostitute was Barney Frank diddling while Fanny and Freddy burned?

Yeah, that Bush, he's bad news. You don't want to try to stand up to him, even if you're the majority party in congress and he's destroying the country. He rides a bike, you know. Tough. If you had a pair of boots made out of that, they'd last the rest of your life.

Screw it. You want to play silly little blame games all day every day? There's plenty of blame to go around.



Maybe a president deserves better than you. Ever think of that?



Oh, that's rich. We can't fight the enemy because we are still suffering the shame of Bush pouring water up Sheik Mohammad's nose. Oh, the shame...

Damn. You leftists are easier pickings than I thought. You become paralyzed in combat when you experience shame. And you feel shame whenever you think the president has done something immoral.

So. To paralyze leftists in combat and club them like baby seals, all us neocons have to do is get the president into a compromising situation with...oh, say a white house intern...but wait. No, that wouldn't work. Leftists weren't ashamed about that. They're only ashamed when it's a Republican president.

Shucks.

Oh well. At least I know now that shame paralyses you. I'll come up with something to shame you. Nekkid pitchers, maybe.
You could just type "blarg!!! Libruls!!!
 
i would not have thought that in 2010 there are still so many humans that are pro-torture.
 
And another thing, lefty. I can't recall you ever talking about killing any of our enemies. It's always one of us you're always talking about shooting and hanging.

Why is that, lefty?

Judges who allow evidence extracted under torture are domestic enemies of everything America stands for.

Bin Laden is a ravening wolf. Yoo, Gonzo, Rummy, all of the merry morons are a cancer.
 
If a terrorist says a certain building is going to be blown up, would you need to feel the terrorist is 100% truthful before you would take preventive measures?

What drooling moron told you it is at all likely that you will get that kind of intel from torture?

I have a suggestion for you. Shoot your television. You seem to have watched enough episodes of 24 to cause a behavioral disorder.
 
By punishing those who collected the evidence illegally. But not retroactively. And don't punish the entire legal system and the entire society.
Hoe do you punish the legal system/government?

Maybe you shouldn't worry your pretty little head about it. People who are willing to sacrifice security for freedom deserve neither. You may yet learn, perhaps the hard way, that there is no freedom in insecurity. The need to be constantly taking measures to cover your ass takes away all your freedom. Keeping body and soul together in an insecure, dangerous environment is a full time job. Ain't no freedom in it.
I didn't realize we were living in fear. Well, at least some of us aren't.


If you can't even handle that, well, I find that "disgusting".
It's disgusting to live by the ethics our nation supposedly upholds?


So? Give them due process, if and only if they are not captured on the battlefield or caught in the act of committing a hostile act, or captured in any situation which would positively identify them as enemy.
Wow. 3 "ifs" that pretty much ensure anyone anywhere can be called a hostile combatant.


Well. You're just an uptight little dude, aren't you. Not at all the big, brave freedom fighter you posed as.
If it makes you feel better to think that, please by all means, pretend that I'm a weak scared individual. Your fantasies have no effect on reality.


And those who would mouth disapproving platitudes completely unrelated to my quite reasonable suggestion that kicking some terrorist ass wouldn't be a bad idea, are extremely annoying, uptight individuals who seem to be very paranoid that they will be wrongly seized and hauled off to Gitmo where they will languish until they die.
Not just me, but any innocent being hauled off.

Perhaps you can prevail on Leftie to pray to his eternal-torture-god that you will be spared.

Other than that advice, I can't really help you. And don't really want to.
I'm again completely confused by this statement. It's almost as if you think everyone who disagrees with you must agree with each other into one big bad group you call "leftie".

This would at least be consistent with your broad brush description of people who live in the middle east.
 
far-left ideologue, former Bush CIA Director and NSA Director under Obama Michael Hayden says "there's been a powerful continuity between the 43rd and the 44th president, and I think that simply reflects the reality that both President Obama and President Bush faced in terms of the threat and the tools that are available to them."

Doesn't Hayden realize that Obama is a surrender-first-ask-questions-later Socialist??
 
What drooling moron told you it is at all likely that you will get that kind of intel from torture?

I have a suggestion for you. Shoot your television. You seem to have watched enough episodes of 24 to cause a behavioral disorder.

Projecting now?

Well, you know where you can stick your suggestion. And you might as well start getting used to the idea that my concept of a "drooling moron" and yours differ greatly. Without going into detail, I find that C.I.A. directors tend NOT to be drooling morons, while large numbers of internet junkies fit nicely into the category. Without naming any names...

And now, in an obviously forlorn hope of touching on reality once again, let me just remind you that I never made any claims about the likelihood of obtaining that kind of information from waterboarding. I simply commented on the actionability of such intel, should it be obtained. Prompting you to once again respond in a non sequitur manner.

The C.I.A., however, has made such a claim:

http://www.dakotavoice.com/2009/04/cia-confirms-waterboarding-thwarted-attack-on-los-angeles/

"In particular, the CIA believes that it would have been unable to obtain critical information from numerous detainees, including KSM and Abu Zubaydah, without these enhanced techniques,” says the Justice Department memo. “Both KSM and Zubaydah had ‘expressed their belief that the general US population was ‘weak,’ lacked resilience, and would be unable to ‘do what was necessary’ to prevent the terrorists from succeeding in their goals.’ Indeed, before the CIA used enhanced techniques in its interrogation of KSM, KSM resisted giving any answers to questions about future attacks, simply noting, ‘Soon you will know.’”

The pitiful part is, I actually agree with the bolded part, at least as far as American leftists are concerned. Leftists are incapable of even fighting a war, let alone winning one. As soon as the leftist density in the US reaches critical mass, the entire rotten structure will simply collapse, just like the Soviet Union. If it weren't for centrists and conservatives, the US wouldn't even have any armed forces.

So. How do ya like them apples, leftie? Tubby little Sheik Muhammad thinks you leftists are easy pickings, incapable of fighting your way out of a wet paper sack. He thinks you're weak, and ultimately doomed. And he can probably make a pretty good case for it. He knows for a fact he's tying you all up in knots by simply being imprisoned and getting some water poured up his nose.

Fact is, Leftie, I can't recall you even once advocating fighting the enemy. You're always talking about wanting to shoot and hang Americans, often interspersed with hypocritical preaching from the bible of a torture-god.

And you think I have a behavioral disorder.
 
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Fact is, Leftie, I can't recall you even once advocating fighting the enemy. You're always talking about wanting to shoot and hang Americans, often interspersed with hypocritical preaching from the bible of a torture-god.

Thank goodness there are a few stalwart Americans like yourself around to Talk Tough about The Enemy on the internet!

The 101 Keyboard Brigade - Defending America Since Al Gore Invented the Internet.
 
Projecting now?

Well, you know where you can stick your suggestion. And you might as well start getting used to the idea that my concept of a "drooling moron" and yours differ greatly. Without going into detail, I find that C.I.A. directors tend NOT to be drooling morons, while large numbers of internet junkies fit nicely into the category. Without naming any names...

I'm willing to name names. The Shrub is a drooling moron and Potter Goss is a sociopath.

"In particular, the CIA believes that it would have been unable to obtain critical information from numerous detainees, including KSM and Abu Zubaydah, without these enhanced techniques,” says the Justice Department memo. “Both KSM and Zubaydah had ‘expressed their belief that the general US population was ‘weak,’ lacked resilience, and would be unable to ‘do what was necessary’ to prevent the terrorists from succeeding in their goals.’ Indeed, before the CIA used enhanced techniques in its interrogation of KSM, KSM resisted giving any answers to questions about future attacks, simply noting, ‘Soon you will know.’”

Prove it.
 
Thank goodness there are a few stalwart Americans like yourself around to Talk Tough about The Enemy on the internet!

The 101 Keyboard Brigade - Defending America Since Al Gore Invented the Internet.

Yeah, and that's all I'm gonna do. My dues are all paid up. You free riders have done got your last click out of Toontown.

Hope you've got a plan B. Because you sure as hell don't have a plan A anymore.
 
What drooling moron told you it is at all likely that you will get that kind of intel from torture?

Well, I don't think it is coincidental that there have been no major terrorist attacks in the US since KSM and his band of head choppers have been "tortured". Do you?
 
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And why do you so hate the principles that set America apart from Red China in the bad old days or the Third Reich?

We suspended those principles when the opposing force started to chop off heads instead of having POW camps. Can't you understand that?
 
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Hoe do you punish the legal system/government?.

Oh, I'm sure you'll find a way. You won't rest until you find a way.

One timeworn tactic is to throw out evidence because of the way the evidence was obtained, and then free the criminal to continue his depredations.

I didn't realize we were living in fear. Well, at least some of us aren't.

You seem to be living in fear of being swept up in an anti-terrorism dragnet and hauled off to Gitmo to be waterboarded for the duration of your existence.

Probability: 0.000000001

Nah. You don't sweat the small stuff.

It's disgusting to live by the ethics our nation supposedly upholds?

I'm afraid my short essay on the connection between security and freedom, and the connection between insecurity and bondage, is beyond your comprehension. So you might as well stop trying to talk about it.

Wow. 3 "ifs" that pretty much ensure anyone anywhere can be called a hostile combatant.

Welcome to the universe, where anyone anywhere can be called a hostile combatant if someone decides to call them a hostile combatant. I can call you a hostile combatant. I'll show you. You're a hostile combatant. See?

Your ingrained distrust of the people who have the grim responsibility of hunting and capturing terrorists, is a personal problem. Your personal problems need not be society's problems.

How old are you, BTW?

If it makes you feel better to think that, please by all means, pretend that I'm a weak scared individual. Your fantasies have no effect on reality.

OK. You are a weak, scared individual who is afraid the evil government is going to seize you and waterboard you to make you confess.

Not just me, but any innocent being hauled off.

War is hell. When in hell, we have 2 choices (3 if you're a leftist or French). We can stupidly tie ourselves up in knots in an attempt to avoid even one wrongful incarceration or death, resulting in an endless, low-level morale and resource draining debacle leading to eventual tail-tucking defeat...OR we can fight the fracking war and get it the frack over with, the way we fought the last war we actually fought to the finish. You'll have to look in a history book to find that one. We haven't had that spirit here since 1945.

I'm again completely confused by this statement. It's almost as if you think everyone who disagrees with you must agree with each other into one big bad group you call "leftie".

You spend a lot of time being confused by my statements. More and more, I'm thinking that's because you are grossly underqualified to even read my statements.

How old are you, BTW?

This would at least be consistent with your broad brush description of people who live in the middle east.

I just repeated what some Iraqis said. I'm willing to accept their assessment of the nature of the culture. They should know. They're from there.

You, on the other hand, are just a self-appointed word cop. Did you make yourself a cardboard word-cop badge?
 
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Oh, I'm sure you'll find a way. You won't rest until you find a way.
This makes no sense in response to question asked.
You mentioned the idea of punishing those who would obtain the information illegally. But what if it is IN FACT an establishment in the government? How do you punish that?

One timeworn tactic is to throw out evidence because of the way the evidence was obtained, and then free the criminal to continue his depredations.
What does timeworn mean to you? Do you think anything that has been used in the past to be Timeworn?
Do you consider "due process" or "free speech" or "right to bear arms" timeworn?


You seem to be living in fear of being swept up in an anti-terrorism dragnet and hauled off to Gitmo to be waterboarded for the duration of your existence.
not at all.

Probability: 0.000000001
Do you mind showing how you calculated that value?

I'm afraid my short essay on the connection between security and freedom, and the connection between insecurity and bondage, is beyond your comprehension. So you might as well stop trying to talk about it.
I understood it. I just found it contrary to the principles america was founded upon.


Welcome to the universe, where anyone anywhere can be called a hostile combatant if someone decides to call them a hostile combatant. I can call you a hostile combatant. I'll show you. You're a hostile combatant. See?
exactly.
You just helped prove my point. Thank you.

Your ingrained distrust of the people who have the grim responsibility of hunting and capturing terrorists, is a personal problem. Your personal problems need not be society's problems.
What does this mean?

OK. You are a weak, scared individual who is afraid the evil government is going to seize you and waterboard you to make you confess.
not at all.

War is hell. When in hell, we have 2 choices (3 if you're a leftist or French). We can stupidly tie ourselves up in knots in an attempt to avoid even one wrongful incarceration or death, resulting in an endless, low-level morale and resource draining debacle resulting in eventual tail-tucking defeat...OR we can fight the fracking war and get it the frack over with, the way we fought the last war we actually fought to the finish. You'll have to look in a history book to find that one. We haven't had that spirit here since 1945.
This is effectively one big false dichotomy. We aren't limited to sacrificing our principles or losing the fight. Part of the success of the Surge was the new strategy towards handling insurgency. Using tired models of warfare wasn't going to work. It was an understanding that nuances in the culture can aide us in the fight against our real enemies. Why would we expect our methods of justice to be any different?

We are in a complex fight. One of principles. If we don't live by the principles we supposedly represent, how can we ever convince others of the benefits of our system?
You spend a lot of time being confused by my statements. More and more, I'm thinking that's because you are grossly underqualified to even read my statements.
I'm only confused because they don't make sense. They are quite hostile and full of bluster but lack substance. I'm simply asking for you to have substance.
How old are you, BTW?
You've asked this twice now. I"m not sure how it matters.

I just repeated what some Iraqis said. I'm willing to accept their assessment of the nature of the culture. They should know. They're from there.
Iraqi's said "Perhaps you can prevail on Leftie to pray to his eternal-torture-god that you will be spared"?

That would be very strange. Perhaps you can explain the context in which Iraqis would have said such a strange statement.

You, on the other hand, are just a self-appointed word cop. Did you make yourself a cardboard word-cop badge?
What's a word-cop?
 
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I've never really looked through the USA Politics section before. I've been missing out, this holds some of the funniest posts on the site.
 

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