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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Who cares what Mark Waterbury thinks?

Rudy was found to have a knife in his bag which he'd taken from the kitchen, so obviously he wasn't walking around carrying a knife or he wouldn't have had to take the knife from the kitchen. And since it was in his bag he he was hardly carrying it on his person.

I can be said to be in possession of a large knife...I have one in my kitchen. Doesn't make me a murderer. Do you have knives, large or otherwise, in your kitchen? Does that make you a murderer?


These arguments seem to me to bolster the unlikelihood that a kitchen knife was used in the murder, but I'm not sure how they relate to the discussion at hand.

Raffaele was the one known to walk around with a knife on him at all times. Have you seen them?:

http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=240


Yes, I have, and again, this only deepens the mystery about why the police went to the kitchen instead of to Raffaele's knife collection.
 
My post about Steve Moore was to refute loverofzion's claim that Steve Moore is not qualified to comment on the case, not to say I am a fan of Steve Moore. However, I am a fan of Steve Moore, and will try to answer your question.

My answer is that I don't know what to make of the bloody footprint on the bathmat. Charlie Wilkes and others have offered sensible explanations several times, if you want to look for those here on JREF. I have postulated in the past that it is Amanda's footprint on the bathmat, from blood she picked up walking around in her bare feet on the steamy floor before her shower, and then she cleaned up any residue when she scooted the bathmat across the floor after he shower. I read something recently that showed me I was wrong about that, but now I can't remember what it was. :confused:

I guess we have to accept that Rudy was in the bathroom, because of the droplets of Meredith's blood that were left there and shown to the police by Amanda.

I don't like to spend a lot of time on trying to figure out what Rudy may or may not have done; that's why I stay out of the conversations about the break-in, for the most part.

Moore is not qualified to comment on the case because he doesn't know the facts of it. This is clear from how many facts he gets terribly wrong every time he opens his mouth.
 
restraint and confinement?

your liberty is 'restrained' when you are pulled over at a sobriety checkpoint, dear Mary

if you don't think you are 'confined', try driving away before you're told to

how would you have police conduct interrogations of people 'suspected' of murder?

have you ever seen a police interrogation?

suspects are often given the option: talk to us or we'll arrest you and play it that way - up to you, pal

do you think police should be limited to chats about the weather over tea and cookies?

do you think they should just call the suspect's mom down to the station and ask her if her son is a good boy, and if she says, "Yes!" just let him go and call it a day?

where are these "definitions" of duress you are referring to? do you have a link?

There is an interesting study about false confessions and deceptive interrogation techniques.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1280254

Starting at page 48 some of the techniques used are outlined and some may apply to Amanda's interrogation as well. The entire study is well worth reading.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/Delivery.cfm/SSRN_ID1589123_code492985.pdf?abstractid=1280254&mirid=1
 
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I do and many others as well.

is it true Waterbury is the guy that thinks RG is an informant that 'knows too much' and, in an effort to help him out, the police pinned the crime on AK and RS instead?

guess the problem with that idea (aside from the lack of any evidence to prove it) is that RG was also found guilty and sentenced to a lengthy prison term (reduced by a technicality) as well

if the system really was that corrupt, and RG really did 'know too much', he'd have never face trial, no?

if i'm wrong about the complete lack of evidence for that (IMHO) absurd claim, feel free to enlighten me
 
restraint and confinement?

your liberty is 'restrained' when you are pulled over at a sobriety checkpoint, dear Mary

if you don't think you are 'confined', try driving away before you're told to

how would you have police conduct interrogations of people 'suspected' of murder?

have you ever seen a police interrogation?

suspects are often given the option: talk to us or we'll arrest you and play it that way - up to you, pal

do you think police should be limited to chats about the weather over tea and cookies?

do you think they should just call the suspect's mom down to the station and ask her if her son is a good boy, and if she says, "Yes!" just let him go and call it a day?

where are these "definitions" of duress you are referring to? do you have a link?


Have you read Raffaele's prison diary? I don't think you have. You said he never claimed duress, and yet he writes of not being allowed to contact his father or a lawyer, of being made to strip naked and being locked in a cold cell.

Days later, he writes, "Now I can say that I understand what it means to take a walk in hell and I pray to God that nothing more happens to me."

Read the whole thing from beginning to end and then get back to me on this.
 
However it is not nearly enough to justify a prosecution that the prosecution's explanation fit the data! That would be exactly backwards in fact. The prosecution's explanation must be proven to be true beyond reasonable doubt. If they can't do that, a conviction is not justified.

Whereas all the defence needs to do is provide an explanation that fits the factual data. If they can do that, then again a conviction is not justified.


No, the prosecution explanation does NOT have to be proven beyond reasonable doubt. Clearly, you do not understand the legal system. They simply have to provide enough evidence to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt. The prosecution "explanation" doesn't even have to be accepted by the court for a guilty verdict for it is not the prosecution that has the final say on the explanation, it is the court that provides the explanation and that may differ from that of the prosecution.

This is not an adversarial system, it's an inquisitorial system.
 
????

They just opened the kitchen drawer...how hard can that be? And it didn't require much intuition, it was the only potential murder weapon in the drawer. You don't need to be Sherlock Holmes.

i agree

someone just needs to post that picture of the big 'F U knife' sitting atop the tray holding harmless, ordinary little utensils

(i don't have that option, yet)

it's worth a thousand words
 
There appears to be some confused thinking at another discussion forum about the DNA profile associated with the knife. Let me try to summarize the debate. Dr. Elizabeth Johnson said as reported by ABC’s Ann Wise on 1 December 2009, “if someone had a knife covered in blood and they tried to clean it very well, they would remove their ability to detect the DNA before they removed the ability to detect the chemical traces of blood.” Note that this statement is made about DNA, not DNA from any one particular cell type. If it is true, it rules out the possibility that the DNA arose from the murder.

The profile that Dr. Stefanoni conjured up is an imperfect but good representation of Meredith’s DNA profile. We are left with four possibilities as to how it arose. 1. Secondary transfer, as discussed by Dr. Kekule, for example. 2. Contamination when it was being taken into evidence. 3a. Contamination in the lab due to handling of the knife. 3b. Contamination in the lab due to DNA in the reagents or in the electrophoresis apparatus. 4. Evidence tampering. The only one of these possibilities in which there is never DNA on the knife is 3b. However, possibilities 2, 3a, and 4 mean that there was no DNA on the knife until ILE handled it. The distinction between “never” and “only after ILE has custody” may be important in some discussions and unimportant in others. The large amount of Meredith’s DNA in the lab could have been deposited on the knife directly (3a) or found its way into the reagents or apparatus (3b).

With respect to the bra clasp profile, The Machine at Perugia Murder File wrote, “Sollecito's DNA on Meredith's bra clasp was LCN DNA despite the fact that the lowest RFU peak was 30% higher than that the 50 RFU test widely used for minimum reliability and the highest RFU peak was more than 200% higher.” I find it interesting that The Machine would place so much stock in the 50 RFU threshold. 22 of 29 peaks in the knife profile fall below this value. The Machine should explain why this threshold is important for the bra clasp but can be ignored for the knife.

Finally, The Machine quoted Mr. Maresca (attorney for the Kercher's) as saying that the tests are indisputable, “All tests are not disputable, since all attorneys and their consultants were notified on the time and date of these non-repetitive tests”. This is problematic on at least two fronts. The first is that Mr. Maresca and Mr. Mignini were essentially on the same team, as I documented upthread. The second is that Mr. Maresca is ignoring the fact that LCN testing needs to be done at least twice, preferably more, and preferably with enough sample left over for the defense. This is the same anonymous commenter who could not find a single case of credible forensic DNA contamination, despite the wide availability of information on this subject.

We don't care what Elizabeth Johnson says.
 
is it true Waterbury is the guy that thinks RG is an informant that 'knows too much' and, in an effort to help him out, the police pinned the crime on AK and RS instead?


It wasn't to help Rudy out, it was to prevent people from knowing they had released Rudy from custody for another crime shortly before he committed the murder.

guess the problem with that idea (aside from the lack of any evidence to prove it) is that RG was also found guilty and sentenced to a lengthy prison term (reduced by a technicality) as well

if the system really was that corrupt, and RG really did 'know too much', he'd have never face trial, no?

if i'm wrong about the complete lack of evidence for that (IMHO) absurd claim, feel free to enlighten me


Mark Waterbury is working on a book about it:

http://www.sciencespheres.com/
 
is it true Waterbury is the guy that thinks RG is an informant that 'knows too much' and, in an effort to help him out, the police pinned the crime on AK and RS instead?

guess the problem with that idea (aside from the lack of any evidence to prove it) is that RG was also found guilty and sentenced to a lengthy prison term (reduced by a technicality) as well

if the system really was that corrupt, and RG really did 'know too much', he'd have never face trial, no?

if i'm wrong about the complete lack of evidence for that (IMHO) absurd claim, feel free to enlighten me

He makes it clear it is a theory, like your "supposition" regarding Amanda's short stories. As theories go, I have seen worse and he supports his theories with pretty convincing arguments.
 
While I certainly don't regard Steve Moore as infallible, he makes the excellent point that in a properly conducted investigation everything in Amanda and Meredith's house that could inflict a stabbing injury would have been tagged and bagged for testing the day the body was discovered because at the time you just can't tell from the injuries what sort of weapon inflicted them.

Yet the prosecution failed to do so and instead homed in on a kitchen knife at Raffaele's place and tested the hell out of it.

At that stage they certainly couldn't be sure that the killer hadn't cleaned the murder weapon and left it in the murder house. Yet as I understand it they didn't even properly look at the potential weapons in the murder house. Once again it looks a lot like someone decided in advance that the murder weapon was going to be found at Raffaele's place.

There is definitely a pattern here of the prosecution, even in their own narrative, knowing things before they should know them. How did Mignini know on Day One it was a three-way murder? It wasn't on the basis of any evidence we know of that stands up to any scrutiny, yet he was miraculously correct. How did the police know that the murder weapon was not to be found at Amanda's house but would be a kitchen knife found at Raffaele's house, so that they didn't even need to bother collecting all the potential weapons in the murder house? It wasn't on the basis of any evidence we know of, but once again they were miraculously correct.


Show us what else in that drawer Meredith could have been stabbed to death with? And don't say a fork!

And actually, Steve Moore didn't say this. What he actually claimed (and this proves my point about his not being qualified as he clearly doesn't know the facts of the case) was that the police didn't take or examine ("they completely ignored") any of the knives from the COTTAGE. This is clearly false, as I posted the police photo of them earlier after they'd been taken into custody.
 
i agree

someone just needs to post that picture of the big 'F U knife' sitting atop the tray holding harmless, ordinary little utensils

(i don't have that option, yet)

it's worth a thousand words


Why would you commit an unplanned murder with a butcher knife when you have a smaller, sharper knife in your pocket?
 
If so, why wouldn't she have mentioned her visit to the store to the police?

Because she proffered the please to believe that she was still in bed at Raffaele's, so to give herself an alibi. She didn't want to have to explain what she was doing at the cottage for all that time. That's why she didn't admit to going to the shop.
 
But by the 6th, they had not yet tested Raffaele's flick knife. In fact, it is named as the murder weapon in Claudia Matteini's report of November 9th.

It isn't logical at all that if would be Raffaele's kitchen knife, given that he allegedly had a collection of other, more portable knives.

Because at that point they weren't certain. The investigation was still ongoing.
 
I don't know. It seems most of the evidence was analyzed by the 15th, though, because that is when the news about the double DNA knife came out as well as the news about Rudy's presence being found at the scene.

No, it actually took them several months to analyse all the forensic evidence.
 
Throw out all the DNA evidence?

Great, so are we throwing all Rudy's forensic evidence out then?

Fulcanelli,

You are disregarding at least three things with respect to the DNA forensic evidence. One, the evidence helped to make Guede a suspect. The evidence was only analyzed (and in some cases even collected) after Sollecito and Knox were already in custody. Therefore, the risk of investigator bias is real for AK and RS but not for RG. Two, I have not seen the DNA evidence against Guede directly. If it is as problematic as the evidence against Knox and Sollecito and if his lawyers did not challenge it, then they were doing a less-than-stellar job. Three, if we toss out all of the DNA evidence against all three, other evidence still puts Guede in Meredith’s room. Nothing puts Sollecito there, and there was no DNA evidence to put Knox there in the first place.
 
To the general extent I am familar with his story, he claims he was having a consenual relation with Ms Kercher when he had to get up to take a dump. When he got out of the bathroom, some other guy was leaving out the door. Guede went to assist Ms Kercher, but got scared and left without calling for help.

If so, a problem other than being preposterous is the key to the front door. The door locks from inside. If the killer was Sollecito, he would have his own keys, he would not have broken in through the window, and he would have left with his own keys. If so, he would leave the door unlocked, and Guede would not have needed Meredith's key to get out. If the killer was not Sollecito, he would not have a key, would have to have broken in, and would have had to return to Meredith's bedroom a second time after realizing he could not get out the front door. Guede does not account for this.

Nobody broke in through the window. It was staged.

You are also assuming the front door was shut, or that the keys weren't in the door.
 
Show us what else in that drawer Meredith could have been stabbed to death with? And don't say a fork!

And actually, Steve Moore didn't say this. What he actually claimed (and this proves my point about his not being qualified as he clearly doesn't know the facts of the case) was that the police didn't take or examine ("they completely ignored") any of the knives from the COTTAGE. This is clearly false, as I posted the police photo of them earlier after they'd been taken into custody.


Are you sure? What were the knives still doing in the cottage on November 4th?

"...She had returned to the house on November 4, 2007 with personnel from the Police Headquarters. Laura and Filomena were already at the site; she had a crying fit thinking of what had happened and she was also afraid of approaching; moreover, they had asked her to look at all the knives and this had really affected her..." (page 71)
 
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