Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Justinian2]

This you mean?:

[qimg]http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/gallery/image.php?album_id=21&image_id=1252[/qimg]

From Perugia Murder File (.org)


Would you like any more pictures?

Wow!

Where any of them tested for DNA?

What was the theory that the prosecution gave for one of those knives not being used for the murder?

Thanks for the photo!

 

[moodstream]

No one knew; possibly she left the store without purchasing anything.

If so, why wouldn't she have mentioned her visit to the store to the police?

 

[Justinian2]

While I certainly don't regard Steve Moore as infallible, he makes the excellent point that in a properly conducted investigation everything in Amanda and Meredith's house that could inflict a stabbing injury would have been tagged and bagged for testing the day the body was discovered because at the time you just can't tell from the injuries what sort of weapon inflicted them.

Yet the prosecution failed to do so and instead homed in on a kitchen knife at Raffaele's place and tested the hell out of it.

At that stage they certainly couldn't be sure that the killer hadn't cleaned the murder weapon and left it in the murder house. Yet as I understand it they didn't even properly look at the potential weapons in the murder house. Once again it looks a lot like someone decided in advance that the murder weapon was going to be found at Raffaele's place.

There is definitely a pattern here of the prosecution, even in their own narrative, knowing things before they should know them. How did Mignini know on Day One it was a three-way murder? It wasn't on the basis of any evidence we know of that stands up to any scrutiny, yet he was miraculously correct. How did the police know that the murder weapon was not to be found at Amanda's house but would be a kitchen knife found at Raffaele's house, so that they didn't even need to bother collecting all the potential weapons in the murder house? It wasn't on the basis of any evidence we know of, but once again they were miraculously correct.

It sure is funny to say they were miraculously correct.

After the laughter , we wonder if the police and prosecution should have been the ones investigated.

 

[Mary_H]

While I certainly don't regard Steve Moore as infallible, he makes the excellent point that in a properly conducted investigation everything in Amanda and Meredith's house that could inflict a stabbing injury would have been tagged and bagged for testing the day the body was discovered because at the time you just can't tell from the injuries what sort of weapon inflicted them.

Yet the prosecution failed to do so and instead homed in on a kitchen knife at Raffaele's place and tested the hell out of it.

At that stage they certainly couldn't be sure that the killer hadn't cleaned the murder weapon and left it in the murder house. Yet as I understand it they didn't even properly look at the potential weapons in the murder house. Once again it looks a lot like someone decided in advance that the murder weapon was going to be found at Raffaele's place.

There is definitely a pattern here of the prosecution, even in their own narrative, knowing things before they should know them. How did Mignini know on Day One it was a three-way murder? It wasn't on the basis of any evidence we know of that stands up to any scrutiny, yet he was miraculously correct. How did the police know that the murder weapon was not to be found at Amanda's house but would be a kitchen knife found at Raffaele's house, so that they didn't even need to bother collecting all the potential weapons in the murder house? It wasn't on the basis of any evidence we know of, but once again they were miraculously correct.

What do you think their strategic reason was for finding it at Raffaele's instead of at Amanda's? And why did they want Amanda's DNA on it instead of Raffaele's? Were they trying to put a knife in each of their hands?

 

[Draca]

Kitchen knife collected Nov 6th after arrest

How did the police know that the murder weapon was not to be found at Amanda's house but would be a kitchen knife found at Raffaele's house, so that they didn't even need to bother collecting all the potential weapons in the murder house? It wasn't on the basis of any evidence we know of, but once again they were miraculously correct.

The police knew Amanda, Raffaele and Patrick were the killers because they had arrested them and declared the case close Nov 6th. They also knew that Meredith was killed for refusing group sex with the three of them as they explained in their news conference. Since the three were guilty it is logical that if it wasn't Raffaele's flick knife, the murder weapon would be his kitchen knife. That's why they collected this potential murder weapon on Nov 6th after arresting him for killing Meredith with his flick knife.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

What do you think their strategic reason was for finding it at Raffaele's instead of at Amanda's? And why did they want Amanda's DNA on it instead of Raffaele's? Were they trying to put a knife in each of their hands?

Bearing it foremost in our minds that we are in the realm of speculation here, my guess would be that they wanted the murder weapon to be found at Raffaele's place because the same weapon found at Amanda's place would have proved nothing whatsoever. Found at Raffaele's it "proves" they they were involved in murder, conspiracy and a clean-up.

The simplest explanation for Amanda's DNA on the handle is just that they got lucky and the knife did indeed have her DNA on the handle.

The convenient timing of the bra clasp DNA evidence has led me to speculate in the past that it's compatible with evidence tampering, and it's not impossible that if Raffaele's DNA had been on the knife handle then Amanda's would have turned up on the bra clasp, but who can say?

I think we can say with certainty that the prosecution did want to come up with a story where all three had a knife in their hands. However that doesn't mean that all the evidence taken as supporting that theory was made up out of whole cloth.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

The police knew Amanda, Raffaele and Patrick were the killers because they had arrested them and declared the case close Nov 6th. They also knew that Meredith was killed for refusing group sex with the three of them as they explained in their news conference. Since the three were guilty it is logical that if it wasn't Raffaele's flick knife, the murder weapon would be his kitchen knife. That's why they collected this potential murder weapon on Nov 6th after arresting him for killing Meredith with his flick knife.

Ah, so at that point they had already nailed their colours to the mast and faced considerable embarassment if they couldn't get a conviction against Knox and Sollecito.

Less gifted police forces might find the evidence and then solve the case, but when you have the power to read minds (Giobbi) and see the future why muck about? Conclusion first, evidence afterwards, that's the way.

It's a real shame that their psychic powers were on the fritz a week earlier when they let Rudy loose with no money, no job and seemingly no need to fear prosecution for criminal acts. If they'd known he was going to rob more houses be lured by Foxy Knoxy's sexy Satanic wiles into a three-way murder pact they could have charged him with theft and avoided this whole mess altogether.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

If the police deliberately contaminated the knife then Dr. Stephanoni wouldn't have had to bother to push the amplification of the electrophoresis machine in her search for DNA, as Rose has stated.

I wish those who think AK and RS are innocent could make up their mind as to why the pair was convicted:

1. Deliberate contamination.
2. Accidential contamination.
3. Corrupt police.
4. Incompetent police.
5. Corrupt prosecution.
6. Incompetent prosecution.
7. Anti-Americanism.
8. Facism.
9. Horny police.
10. Cover up to protect Rudy.
11. Cultural differences.
12. Sexism

Why was Kelly Michaels convicted of sex crimes that never really happened?

Why were the Norfolk Four convicted and kept in prison even after police knew who killed Michelle Bosko?

Why were Hernandez and Cruz convicted and kept in prison even after police knew who really killed Jeanine Nicarico?

The answer is the same in every case: the local authorities made a public announcement, and from then on, they ignored or suppressed all exculpatory evidence while scrambling for evidence that could be used to support their false accusation. That is what has happened in the Meredith Kercher case.

 

[Mary_H]

The police knew Amanda, Raffaele and Patrick were the killers because they had arrested them and declared the case close Nov 6th. They also knew that Meredith was killed for refusing group sex with the three of them as they explained in their news conference. Since the three were guilty it is logical that if it wasn't Raffaele's flick knife, the murder weapon would be his kitchen knife. That's why they collected this potential murder weapon on Nov 6th after arresting him for killing Meredith with his flick knife.

But by the 6th, they had not yet tested Raffaele's flick knife. In fact, it is named as the murder weapon in Claudia Matteini's report of November 9th.

It isn't logical at all that if would be Raffaele's kitchen knife, given that he allegedly had a collection of other, more portable knives.

 

[Mary_H]

Bearing it foremost in our minds that we are in the realm of speculation here, my guess would be that they wanted the murder weapon to be found at Raffaele's place because the same weapon found at Amanda's place would have proved nothing whatsoever. Found at Raffaele's it "proves" they they were involved in murder, conspiracy and a clean-up.

The simplest explanation for Amanda's DNA on the handle is just that they got lucky and the knife did indeed have her DNA on the handle.

The convenient timing of the bra clasp DNA evidence has led me to speculate in the past that it's compatible with evidence tampering, and it's not impossible that if Raffaele's DNA had been on the knife handle then Amanda's would have turned up on the bra clasp, but who can say?

Ah. Good (speculative) explanations.

 

[act1roson]

But by the 6th, they had not yet tested Raffaele's flick knife. In fact, it is named as the murder weapon in Claudia Matteini's report of November 9th.

It isn't logical at all that if would be Raffaele's kitchen knife, given that he allegedly had a collection of other, more portable knives.

Was all evidence analyzed in the same lab by the same analyst?

 

[Mary_H]

Was all evidence analyzed in the same lab by the same analyst?

I don't know. It seems most of the evidence was analyzed by the 15th, though, because that is when the news about the double DNA knife came out as well as the news about Rudy's presence being found at the scene.

 

[Draca]

It is logical he wouldn't use the logical weapon

But by the 6th, they had not yet tested Raffaele's flick knife. In fact, it is named as the murder weapon in Claudia Matteini's report of November 9th.

Who told Claudia Matteini that the flick knife was the murder weapon? The police of course. See, he WAS arrested for killing Meredith with his flick knife. He was even denied house arrest because of this.

It isn't logical at all that if would be Raffaele's kitchen knife, given that he alleged had a collection of other, more portable knives.

It is logical he wouldn't use the logical weapon in order to throw the police off track. It was probably Amanda's idea because she is very devious. She may have been high as kites, but she's an honor student!

Oh wait. Nevermind, I remember now that she just happened to have the 12inch kitchen knife in her cloth purse for protection that night.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

While I certainly don't regard Steve Moore as infallible, he makes the excellent point that in a properly conducted investigation everything in Amanda and Meredith's house that could inflict a stabbing injury would have been tagged and bagged for testing the day the body was discovered because at the time you just can't tell from the injuries what sort of weapon inflicted them.

Yet the prosecution failed to do so and instead homed in on a kitchen knife at Raffaele's place and tested the hell out of it.

At that stage they certainly couldn't be sure that the killer hadn't cleaned the murder weapon and left it in the murder house. Yet as I understand it they didn't even properly look at the potential weapons in the murder house. Once again it looks a lot like someone decided in advance that the murder weapon was going to be found at Raffaele's place.

Steve knows his stuff. One thing I learned from him is that the cutting wound on Meredith's neck is a recognizable type - the kind inflicted by someone who is holding the victim from behind. This changed my understanding of what happened. I knew Meredith was on her back at the very end of the attack, when she was gasping for breath. I therefore thought the killer was behind her when he inflicted the punctures on the right side of her neck, but that she was on her back, on the floor, when he inflicted the large wound, which is why it was on the left side of her neck.

Steve says that is not the case. The cutting wound on her neck is the kind that is inflicted by someone who is behind the victim, because that is the only position that affords enough leverage. A second expert has told me exactly the same thing. And Massei's report (page 111 [105]) states that the wound "penetrated into the interior of the structure of the neck in a slightly oblique direction, upwards and also towards the right," which is the opposite of how it would be made by a right-handed attacker facing his victim, but consistent with an attacker holding his victim from behind.

Also, the depth of the wound is only about half the length of the blade on the kitchen knife, so the attacker would have been holding the end of a lever arm and would not have been able to exert enough pressure to make the cut without driving the blade to its full depth, in which case it would have gone all the way through the neck. The wound was therefore made with a smaller knife, plunged in up to the hilt.

 

[Mary_H]

Who told Claudia Matteini that the flick knife was the murder weapon? The police of course. See, he WAS arrested for killing Meredith with his flick knife. He was even denied house arrest because of this.

It is logical he wouldn't use the logical weapon in order to throw the police off track. It was probably Amanda's idea because she is very devious. She may have been high as kites, but she's an honor student!

Oh wait. Nevermind, I remember now that she just happened to have the 12inch kitchen knife in her cloth purse for protection that night.

Did you see what Katody quoted earlier today from the Massei report?

"Furthermore, since it was a kitchen knife, Amanda, were she to be checked, would have been able to easily explain why she was carrying it."

How true -- I know the police have never suspected me when they have found kitchen knives in my purse.

 

[moodstream]

But he explained all that in his story.

What specific evidence proves his story a lie?

To the general extent I am familar with his story, he claims he was having a consenual relation with Ms Kercher when he had to get up to take a dump. When he got out of the bathroom, some other guy was leaving out the door. Guede went to assist Ms Kercher, but got scared and left without calling for help.

If so, a problem other than being preposterous is the key to the front door. The door locks from inside. If the killer was Sollecito, he would have his own keys, he would not have broken in through the window, and he would have left with his own keys. If so, he would leave the door unlocked, and Guede would not have needed Meredith's key to get out. If the killer was not Sollecito, he would not have a key, would have to have broken in, and would have had to return to Meredith's bedroom a second time after realizing he could not get out the front door. Guede does not account for this.

 

[moodstream]

I have felt that the purpose of the knife was to rattle Knox and Sollecito's cages a little. The idea was to get K + S's reaction. If they denied it was the knife, of course they would be guilty. It was sort of a hail mary pass made in desperation, because the evidence was coming back and it was not pointing to Amanda and Raffaele. Magnini was hoping that in their reaction they would say something to implicate themselves.

Supporting this idea is the fact that what they did say has been used to implicate them, even though it is not implicative. Raffaele's attempt to come to terms with the inexplicable, by incorrectly thinking maybe Meredith could have cut herself, made in a phone conversation to his father, and Amanda's statement that she is worried about her situation due to the claim about the knife have been used to insinuate guilt by the court, and of course the guilters.

The prosecution intended to use A+K's reaction to the news about the knife against them before releasing the information. It was a planned trap. The trap did not work, but the prosecution took what it could from the remarks that were made, and tried to spin them to look like guilt.

 

[Draca]

The reason parts of the room weren't disturbed is that the attack was sudden and the struggle was brief. There are small, round drops of blood under her desk and on the floor in front of her desk and under her window. That is probably from the first knife wound he inflicted - a jab in the right side of her neck, while both were still on their feet. Then she was thown to the floor, so she was on her hands and knees facing her wardrobe. That is when the brutal slashing wound was inflicted. He was on top of her, gripping her face tightly with his left hand. He was holding the knife in his right hand. He reached around, under her neck, and stabbed her, and then pulled the knife from left to right.

He made the finger streaks on the wall next to her wardrobe when he was dragging her body from where she fell to where she was found.

She made the finger streaks on her wardrobe in a last, desperate attempt to rise.

Charlie,

What I disagree with in this senario is when the finger streaks on the wall were made.

He made the finger streaks on the wall next to her wardrobe when he was dragging her body from where she fell to where she was found.

These streaks are not on the wall by the wardrobe, they are on the wall between the bed and bedside table. I don't see how if she was stabbed by the desk and brought down on the floor by the wardrobe at what point Rudy (or Meredith) would stand up and walk over to the wall on the left hand side of the bedside table and place the finger streaks. It doesn't seem like a believable senario to me.

I think it is more likely that the attack started near the bed. The mattress is pushed back, the blood mark on the wall above the bed, the left hand corner of the bedside table is cleared, the rest of the items on the bedside table look pushed to the right hand side, the lamp is on the floor - plugged in and facing the wrong direction. The finger streaks are on the wall directly above the lamp on the floor. The lamp was probably knocked on the floor.

Corner of bedside table cleared, lamp on floor, finger streaks
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=159462757411537&set=a.124466634244483.15396.106344459390034&ref=fbx_album

I think from this point the attacked moved on the desk area where the chair is shoved and the leg on top of a paper with the blood drops under the desk.

Another point is that the RUG on the floor by the desk would have originally been laying horizontally along side the bed. This is another clue that the attacked started by the bed. Perhaps the Rug got in the way and was kicked across the room?

Rug moved from besides bed to by desk?
http://www.friendsofamanda.org/bloodstains_on_floor.jpg

 

[Draca]

Did you see what Katody quoted earlier today from the Massei report?

"Furthermore, since it was a kitchen knife, Amanda, were she to be checked, would have been able to easily explain why she was carrying it."

How true -- I know the police have never suspected me when they have found kitchen knives in my purse.

Is it illegal to carry a knife for protection daily? Is that why she would need a reason to have the knife with her? Why would she ever use a cloth purse if she decided to carry the kitchen knife for protection!

 

[Mary_H]

I have felt that the purpose of the knife was to rattle Knox and Sollecito's cages a little. The idea was to get K + S's reaction. If they denied it was the knife, of course they would be guilty. It was sort of a hail mary pass made in desperation, because the evidence was coming back and it was not pointing to Amanda and Raffaele. Magnini was hoping that in their reaction they would say something to implicate themselves.

Supporting this idea is the fact that what they did say has been used to implicate them, even though it is not implicative. Raffaele's attempt to come to terms with the inexplicable, by incorrectly thinking maybe Meredith could have cut herself, made in a phone conversation to his father, and Amanda's statement that she is worried about her situation due to the claim about the knife have been used to insinuate guilt by the court, and of course the guilters.

The prosecution intended to use A+K's reaction to the news about the knife against them before releasing the information. It was a planned trap. The trap did not work, but the prosecution took what it could from the remarks that were made, and tried to spin them to look like guilt.

That's a good point, moodstream. It is also in keeping with the suggestion that giving Amanda a false positive on her HIV test was also a way to rattle her and hopefully get her to confess.

The knife, as you point out, was one of those witch hunt traps -- if they float, they're witches and we burn them at the stake; if they sink, they're not witches, but they're dead, anyway. Whatever they said would have been held against them.

I think their ages played into their responses a lot. Kids in their 20's still explicitly trust authority figures and tend to blame themselves for reported anomalies. An older person might have been more capable of saying, "You found a murder weapon in my kitchen? That is flat out impossible."