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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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RoseMontague said:
Originally Posted by RoseMontague View Post
I think the people that post here do not have as much of a group identity as is shown at certain other places. Differences of opinion on some of the details are common, just as I disagreed with Mary_H and halkides earlier today. Even among those here that believe in guilt there are differences, Michiavelli is one example that seems to me to go a different direction on certain issues. I thought your inclusion of number 9 was amusing, not sure about number 12, has that been claimed here?




I'll try to remember exactly when that was so I can highlite it for you.
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Oh it's okay, Amanda and Raffaele had memory problems too. It's nice when we can reach out and touch other people...on finding we have much in common with them :)
 
Malkmus said:
It's possible to express incredulity as a reason to doubt that Amanda and Raf would ever have committed a murder together, but no one is using that reason alone to prove that they couldn't have done it, and I don't think incredulity is ever regarded as a valid reason to negate certain pieces of evidence. Incredulity is a good reason to doubt that Amanda ever carried a kitchen knife around in her purse, for example, but it's not "the reason" the knife is considered a questionable piece of evidence. What Alt is doing is using incredulity to negate the idea of the lone wolf scenario. Much like incredulity is often the main reason to doubt that Rudy could possibly have climbed in through the window - despite his having done almost the exact same thing a month before. If we were arguing over whether Rudy would actually break into the law office, the argument from incredulity would be that no one in their right mind would climb a wall in the middle of a public courtyard in plain sight of other residents' windows.
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The dismissal of Rudy's entering via the window is not on the basis of incredulity. It is based on the evidence. It's a logical position, not an emotive or faith based one.
 
Justinian2 said:
I'd really love to see a photograph of that plethora of potential murder weapons.
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You can probably find it on one of the other sites which follows the murder. I remember seeing it not long ago and thinking that the girls seemed to have plenty of knives.
 
quadraginta said:
You left out cartwheels. I have it on good authority. The real deal why she was falsely convicted. You can see all the irrefutable proof right here.

-link to cartwheel post-

:rolleyes:
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No, that's not really a separate reason - perhaps the cartwheels made the the cops horny.

Although they were apparently horny before the cartwheels ( which never took place / were yoga / cultural difference / whatever you are having yourself ) so we are faced yet again with a temporal anomaly - not for the first time in this case it seems.
 
Justinian2 said:
I'd really love to see a photograph of that plethora of potential murder weapons.
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This you mean?:

image.php


From Perugia Murder File (.org)


Would you like any more pictures?
 
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Fulcanelli said:
Oh it's okay, Amanda and Raffaele had memory problems too. It's nice when we can reach out and touch other people...on finding we have much in common with them :)
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I am a bit flaky and have been recently called "incredibly stupid" so it is not surprising I have suffered some memory loss as well. Try to understand and be considerate of my poor circumstances in this regard.
 
RoseMontague said:
I am a bit flaky and have been recently called "incredibly stupid" so it is not surprising I have suffered some memory loss as well. Try to understand and be considerate of my poor circumstances in this regard.
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Well... flakiness would explain it. Get well soon Rose! :)
 
And before anyone scoffs at the possibility of a temporal anomaly - in this case we also have physical anomalies
- feet exist in one dimension only apparently, they have length but no width.:)
 
Fulcanelli said:
This you mean?:

[qimg]http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/gallery/image.php?album_id=21&image_id=1252[/qimg]

From Perugia Murder File (.org)


Would you like any more pictures?
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Fulcanelli, I'm curious and don't think I've ever heard your personal interpretation of the knife evidence. How do you believe the knife from Rafaelle's came to be used in the murder?
 
Fulcanelli said:
As a NORM. But the point is, crimes don't always follow the norms, which is why some of those cases go down in infamy, never to be forgotten. People like Bonnie and Clyde, Ian Brady and Myra Hindley, Fred and Rose West...the list goes on.

They are anomalies, yet all the same, they exist and the fact they are anomalies cannot be used as an argument to say they don't. Their existence is a fact.
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Bonnie Parker met Clyde Barrow (who was already a hardened criminal) some time in 1930. Their first joint crimes took place in 1932 - two years after they met.

Myra Hindley met Ian Brady (who already had convictions for burglary and threatening a girl with a knife) in July 1961. Their first joint murder took place in July 1963 - two years after they met.

Rose West met Fred West (who already had a conviction for molesting an underage girl, and who had almost certainly already killed Anne McFall) in November 1968. Their first murder was probably committed in June 1971 - two and a half years after they met.

Karla Homolka met Paul Bernardo (who had already raped three women) in October 1987. Their first joint rape/murder took place in December 1990 - over three years after they met.


Amanda Knox met Raffaele Sollecito (who had no criminal past) on 26th October 2007. Meredith Kercher was sexually assaulted and murdered on 1st November 2007 - 6 days after they met.


Spot the difference.......?
 
halides1 said:
What are Dr. Stefanoni’s qualifications in DNA forensics? This is the second time I have asked you specifically to provide this information. To the best of my knowledge she is an M.D., and forensic DNA analysis is not part of typical training of physicians, at least in the U.S. She has never coauthored any journal articles or textbooks.
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Through her Alma Mater, the Federico II University of Naples, I found an article by Stefanoni and from that title I searched for publictions by her available in English in pubmed:

(her pubmed articles are at the page:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%22Stefanoni%20P%22[Author] )

1
A novel hyperekplexia-causing mutation in the pre-transmembrane segment 1 of the human glycine receptor alpha1 subunit reduces membrane expression and impairs gating by agonists.
Castaldo P, Stefanoni P, Miceli F, Coppola G, Del Giudice EM, Bellini G, Pascotto A, Trudell JR, Harrison NL, Annunziato L, Taglialatela M.
J Biol Chem. 2004 Jun 11;279(24):25598-604. Epub 2004 Apr 5.PMID: 15066993

2
Organization and nucleotide sequence of the cluster of five histone genes in the polichaete worm Chaetopterus variopedatus: first record of a H1 histone gene in the phylum Annelida.
del Gaudio R, Potenza N, Stefanoni P, Chiusano ML, Geraci G.
J Mol Evol. 1998 Jan;46(1):64-73.PMID: 9419226

3
Impaired radial artery compliance in normotensive subjects with familial hypercholesterolemia.
Giannattasio C, Mangoni AA, Failla M, Carugo S, Stella ML, Stefanoni P, Grassi G, Vergani C, Mancia G.
Atherosclerosis. 1996 Aug 2;124(2):249-60.PMID: 8830937

4
Changes in the compliance of the radial artery in normotensive subjects with familial hypercholesterolemia
Mangoni AA, Giannattasio C, Carugo S, Stella ML, Failla M, Turrini D, Stefanoni P, Grassi G, Vergani C, Mancia G.
G Ital Cardiol. 1995 Jan;25(1):43-50. Italian. PMID: 7642011

5
Arterial compliance in familial hypercholesterolaemia: a preliminary report.
Giannattasio C, Mangoni AA, Carugo S, Bombelli M, Stefanoni P, Failla M, Stella ML, Sega R, Grassi G, Vergani C, et al.
J Hypertens Suppl. 1993 Dec;11(5):S82-3. No abstract available. PMID: 8158446

6
The determination of choline in pharmaceutical preparations by means of an enzyme sensor.
Campanella L, Tomassetti M, Sammartino MP, Stefanoni P.
J Pharm Biomed Anal. 1989;7(6):765-70. No abstract available. PMID: 2490779
 
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Though, I'm almost sure titles 3 - 4 - 5 are not by the same P. Stefanoni, even if the PubMed enlists them as the same Author.
 
Fulcanelli said:
The dismissal of Rudy's entering via the window is not on the basis of incredulity. It is based on the evidence. It's a logical position, not an emotive or faith based one.
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No.

There is no good evidence that Rudy did not get in by the window, merely an unsupported assertion by the police contradicted by photographs of the scene, and some extraordinarily tenuous conjecture by Massei that he illegitimately presents as conclusive logic.

Fulcanelli said:
You're not talking to a tourist any more. You could however attempt to support your argument with statistics to support all these supposed "collapsed" subs these past few decade in order to demonstrate they're a commonality, rather then a once in a generation event.
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Perhaps that was too subtle for you?

Okay, we'll go with the long version. Your implied argument was "Stefanoni got a good result, therefore she could not have been using her equipment incorrectly". It's circular reasoning because it assumes that her result was correct to get to the conclusion that she did everything right.

The fact is she was using her equipment incorrectly, and since the knife was nigh certainly at home with Raffaele and Amanda when Meredith was murdered it's a safe bet that Stefanoni screwed up by misusing her apparatus.

Fulcanelli said:
But he explained all that in his story.

What specific evidence proves his story a lie?
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Nothing. For all I know it's even true, and Meredith was murdered by a random guy who left no evidence of his existence, just after she had consensual, casual sex with a creepy local criminal she didn't know who she met outside her apartment at 21:05 or so. I don't think it's very likely though, do you?
 
Some of Hampikian's credentials

Fulcanelli said:
What are Hampikiens? What are Johnsons? We can all play that game Chris. I suggest you drop it.
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When I searched for articles coauthored by Dr. Hampikian at PubMed, here is what I found:

Ribonucleotide and ribonucleoside determination by ambient pressure ion mobility spectrometry.
Kanu AB, Hampikian G, Brandt SD, Hill HH Jr.
Anal Chim Acta. 2010 Jan 18;658(1):91-7. Epub 2009 Oct 31.
PMID: 20082780 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Time for DNA disclosure.
Krane DE, Bahn V, Balding D, Barlow B, Cash H, Desportes BL, D'Eustachio P, Devlin K, Doom TE, Dror I, Ford S, Funk C, Gilder J, Hampikian G, Inman K, Jamieson A, Kent PE, Koppl R, Kornfield I, Krimsky S, Mnookin J, Mueller L, Murphy E, Paoletti DR, Petrov DA, Raymer M, Risinger DM, Roth A, Rudin N, Shields W, Siegel JA, Slatkin M, Song YS, Speed T, Spiegelman C, Sullivan P, Swienton AR, Tarpey T, Thompson WC, Ungvarsky E, Zabell S.
Science. 2009 Dec 18;326(5960):1631-2. No abstract available.
PMID: 20019271 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Absent sequences: nullomers and primes.
Hampikian G, Andersen T.
Pac Symp Biocomput. 2007:355-66.
PMID: 17990505 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]Free Article
Related citations

An organizational model of transcription factor binding sites for a histone promoter in D. melanogaster.
Crayton ME 3rd, Ladd CE, Sommer M, Hampikian G, Strausbaugh LD.
In Silico Biol. 2004;4(4):537-48.
PMID: 15752071 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]Free Article
Related citations

Long-distance charge transport in duplex DNA: the phonon-assisted polaron-like hopping mechanism.
Henderson PT, Jones D, Hampikian G, Kan Y, Schuster GB.
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1999 Jul 20;96(15):8353-8.
PMID: 10411879 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]Free PMC ArticleFree text

Effect on embryos of injection of phosphorothioate-modified oligonucleotides into pregnant mice.
Gaudette MF, Hampikian G, Metelev V, Agrawal S, Crain WR.
Antisense Res Dev. 1993 Winter;3(4):391-7.
PMID: 8155980 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Evolution of sex determination and the Y chromosome: SRY-related sequences in marsupials.
Foster JW, Brennan FE, Hampikian GK, Goodfellow PN, Sinclair AH, Lovell-Badge R, Selwood L, Renfree MB, Cooper DW, Graves JA.
Nature. 1992 Oct 8;359(6395):531-3.
PMID: 1406969 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Complete amino acid sequence of chicken cartilage link protein deduced from cDNA clones.
Deák F, Kiss I, Sparks KJ, Argraves WS, Hampikian G, Goetinck PF.
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1986 Jun;83(11):3766-70.
PMID: 3459154 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

When I searched for forensic DNA publications coauthored by Dr. Stefanoni, I came up empty-handed. I did find two biochemistry-related articles coauthored by a P. Stefanoni, but I cannot verify whether or not she is the same person. Do you have her resume?
 
Kevin_Lowe said:
......................

Young people with no history of violence whatsoever very, very rarely if ever meet a local crook they are not friends with at 21:05 and then decide at 21:10 to team up with them to gang-rape and murder their housemate. (Don't blame me, I didn't invent that scenario).

.......................
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It appears you did invent that scenario.

Kevin_Lowe said:
......................


but dumb ideas can be exposed as dumb.

................
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Indeed.
 
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Machiavelli said:
Through her Alma Mater, the Federico II University of Naples, I found an article by Stefanoni and from that title I searched for publictions by her available in English in pubmed:

(her pubmed articles are at the page:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%22Stefanoni%20P%22[Author]
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Good work, although googling gets you a substantially similar list.

May I ask why you think some articles are by our Stefanoni and some not, and how you know that any of them are by our Stefanoni? I'm not saying that these are or are not by her - I can't say as yet - but it's possible they are all by some other P Stefanoni, particularly if she's an MD who works for the police rather than a research biochemist.

ETA: This looks like it's almost certainly our Stefanoni as one of the authors though.
 
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