Is there an "atheist perspective"?

[Christian]

really ?

he got his phd from the catholic university of America and his data set came from a questionaire that was answered by 1559 people, what about the 1,324 653,441 chinese people who didn't answer ?

fail
this time epic
do the research and stop speculating please
this is getting tiresome and you are rapidly proving the point of the recent survey that showed theists were less intelligent than non theists

Please read this and come back to me on it.
http://parkinslot.blogspot.com/2003/12/sample-size-and-statistical.html

A random sample of 1,000 people will give you a confidence level of 95%, regardless of population size.

 

[D'rok]

Excellent, your suspicions can be tested (as mine)



This is why a random sample is a must (as with any valid statistical test)



Yes, excellent again. I proposed a survey of a random sample with a control group (double blinded test) And to be almost 100% representative of the whole population we can use the full 2,500 people for both the test and control group.



A testable hypothesis it is.




No, of course not. Don't look at it this way. You can think of it as how someone becomes a pianist or painter.

How will you control for cultural differences?

 

[Christian]

How will you control for cultural differences?

My random sample would only include atheists as the common trait. Being random, I would not know from where these atheists are. This would guarantee that cultural differences would not play into the results. This is the importance of the random sample.

 

[D'rok]

My random sample would only include atheists as the common trait. Being random, I would not know from where these atheists are. This would guarantee that cultural differences would not play into the results. This is the importance of the random sample.

That is not an answer and you bloody well know it. Will your survey be in English?

 

[Sun Countess]

No, of course not. Don't look at it this way. You can think of it as how someone becomes a pianist or painter.

Except that nobody is born a pianist or a painter. I was born an atheist (as we all are), raised an atheist, and remained an atheist. I had to practice to become a pianist, yet all the practice in the world can't make me a decent painter.

But maybe one could find a correlation of common traits. Maybe a combination of traits like being a contrarian, independent thinker, higher IQ, etc. leads to atheism for those who where theists and to remain an atheist for those who began as such.

Or maybe it's just the astounding lack of evidence for the existence of any deities.

It would be fascinating to find a formula of the mental traits that might leads to atheism (or to remain an atheist). Or to conclude that no such thing exists.

Maybe it's just the astounding lack of evidence for the existence of any deities.

You don't need any special mental abilities to not see something that isn't there. Do you see a family of leprechauns in your garden? What mental skills did you employ to not see them? Do you think there are some common traits among people who don't believe leprechauns live in their garden?

 

[Christian]

That is not an answer and you bloody well know it. Will your survey be in English?

Wait, then I need to explain further.

Please bear with me.

I want to explain.

http://www.olma.vt.edu/courses/5115d/week5-random.html

From that link I quote:
"The key is the use of statistically derived random sampling procedures. These ensure that survey results can be defended as statistically representative of the population.

So, for me to defend that my sample is representative of the atheist population, regardless of where they live on the planet, I must chose them randomly.

A way to do this is to use survey in differents parts of the world (countries chosen randomly as well) Then conduct surveys in their own languages. Then, out of the population surveyed, chose 2,500 surveys at random and then find correlations. Do you follow?

 

[fromdownunder]

Excellent, your suspicions can be tested (as mine)

Then devise a test, and do not post generalities which really do not go anywhere.

This is why a random sample is a must (as with any valid statistical test)

But a random sample of what? This is one of the things you have failed to explain. A sample of JREF members, without having at least one other control group, is utterly useless.

Since you seem fond of analogies, here is one for you. You do a survey, without one or more control groups which comes back with 2 sets:

1. 82% of atheists don't pick their nose.
2. 99% of atheists are not Stamp Collectors.

...and you think wow that's significant (since you seem to find everything significant) Then the other data comes in:

1. 82% of Christians don't pick their nose.
2. 99% of Christians are not Stamp Collectors.

1. 82% of the World Population don't pick their nose.
2. 99% of the World Population are not Stamp Collectors.

The logical conclusion from this is that atheists are just like other people. Except that atheists will still lack a belief in God regardless of whether or not we think nose picking is not a good thing to do.

Yes, excellent again. I proposed a survey of a random sample with a control group (double blinded test) And to be almost 100% representative of the whole population we can use the full 2,500 people for both the test and control group.

Who is your control group in this survey you proposed? What are the questions? What type of data analysis do you intend to do when you complete your survey? Will you publish your analysis here?

No, of course not. Don't look at it this way. You can think of it as how someone becomes a pianist or painter.

So one can only become an atheist after years and years of training, practice and acquired skill according to you? I don't think so.

Norm

 

[D'rok]

Wait, then I need to explain further.

Please bear with me.

I want to explain.

http://www.olma.vt.edu/courses/5115d/week5-random.html

From that link I quote:
"The key is the use of statistically derived random sampling procedures. These ensure that survey results can be defended as statistically representative of the population.

So, for me to defend that my sample is representative of the atheist population, regardless of where they live on the planet, I must chose them randomly.

A way to do this is to use survey in differents parts of the world (countries chosen randomly as well) Then conduct surveys in their own languages. Then, out of the population surveyed, chose 2,500 surveys at random and then find correlations. Do you follow?

A global survey sounds like a massive undertaking.

If you think such an exercise in profiling is possible and meaningful, don't let us stop you.

 

[Christian]

Except that nobody is born a pianist or a painter. I was born an atheist (as we all are), raised an atheist, and remained an atheist. I had to practice to become a pianist, yet all the practice in the world can't make me a decent painter.

Or maybe it's just the astounding lack of evidence for the existence of any deities.
Maybe it's just the astounding lack of evidence for the existence of any deities.

You don't need any special mental abilities to not see something that isn't there. Do you see a family of leprechauns in your garden? What mental skills did you employ to not see them? Do you think there are some common traits among people who don't believe leprechauns live in their garden?

I can follow your logic. But some intution must tell you that if 97% of the population believe in some sort of deity (something completely imaginary) there must be a mental process that makes it so. You have to consider why humans persist in the belief of the supernatural.

 

[Beth]

what have you been reading ?

heres another 4 data sets that show you are wrong
http://www.adherents.com/Na/Na_473.html
according to these surveys non religion runs between 50 and 71%

http://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/research/2010/100726T-YangChina.html

Oooh.....dueling citations.

I've checked out both sites. Marduk is correct, there are 3 different studies that give the non-religious in China at 71% to 59% (the 4th didn't give a figure). But they are dated, ranging from 1992 to 1998.

Christian's link is to a survey was done last summer by a Purdue University Researcher. It's a very respectable source and it is more recent.

I don't know much about the political climate regarding religion in China, but if it has changed over the past 12 to 18 years, that might account for the difference. Or, it's possible the wide disparity in these numbers may be due to slight differences in the wording of survey questions.

God, Religion, Atheist, Agnostic, the categories of belief and non-belief in such things is not as easily partitioned as survey designers might wish.

 

[D'rok]

God, Religion, Atheist, Agnostic, the categories of belief and non-belief in such things is not as easily partitioned as survey designers might wish.

We have a winner!

 

[D'rok]

I can follow your logic. But some intution must tell you that if 97% of the population believe in some sort of deity (something completely imaginary) there must be a mental process that makes it so. You have to consider why humans persist in the belief of the supernatural.

Evidence for bolded claim S.V.P.

 

[Christian]

A global survey sounds like a massive undertaking.

If you think such an exercise in profiling is possible and meaningful, don't let us stop you.

For sure not possible for me, but nothing stops me from theorizing.

 

[D'rok]

I can follow your logic. But some intution must tell you that if 97% of the population believe in some sort of deity (something completely imaginary) there must be a mental process that makes it so. You have to consider why humans persist in the belief of the supernatural.

Based on your citation here:

http://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/research/2010/100726T-YangChina.html

...85% of the Chinese people are religious. Ignoring, for the sake of argument, that this figure includes Buddhists and Confucians who are atheists, that leaves approx. 195,000,000 "atheist" Chinese.

That's more than 3% of the global population.

 

[Christian]

Evidence for bolded claim S.V.P.

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

 

[D'rok]

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

Once again, ignoring the atheism of many Buddhists and others, and otherwise taking that chart at face value, this calculation remains:

16/2 = 8.

 

[Christian]

Once again, ignoring the atheism of many Buddhists and others, and otherwise taking that chart at face value, this calculation remains:

16/2 = 8.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism

 

[D'rok]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism

What is this wiki-dump supposed to prove to me?

I have granted you the most restrictive definition of atheism possible and used your own sources to demonstrate that your claim of 97% god-belief is incorrect.

To repeat: By the most restrictive definition of atheism, and from your own sources, these two conclusions are undeniable:

1. The number of "atheists" in China is greater than 3% of the world's population
2. Approximately 8% of the world's population are "atheists".

I don't think your profiling project is going to be successful if you can't even support your most basic claims.

 

[FattyCatty]

Its a straw man because you didn't note that christian said "I don't think it is warranted that you include in the group agnostics unless you can support that the data includes them." even though you highlighted it
the group he is talking about is non theists
see straw. You could have found that out for yourself by actually reading the thread instead of just drive by posting, but whatever, youre not covering yourself in glory, if thats your thing, groovy

Christian is not my opponent. I'm agreeing with him. Why is that a straw man?

Non-theist is an interesting term; even the non-theists don't seem to agree on what it means. Some use it as a synonym for atheist, others include practically everything except organized religion. Define your term, please. How are you using it? I consider agnostics to be outside a categorization of non-theists because they are neither believers nor unbelievers; as I keep repeating, they don't know.

I have read the thread. Sometimes others post while I am writing, but I read them after I make my post.

the source for the pie chart was Overseas Missionary Fellowship, which is a christian organisation working in China

The Overseas Missionary Fellowship got their information from Operation World, an evangelical Christian organization whose primary purpose is prayer. The information I provided was from Purdue's Center for Religious Studies. I go with Purdue.

More than 85 percent of people in China hold some religious belief or practice some kind of religion, says a Purdue University sociology professor who studies religion in China. purdue.edu/newsroom/research/2010/100726T-YangChina.html

http://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/resea...YangChina.html

ahhh right, so youre saying that the unsupported beliefs of a catholic (Fenggang Yang) outweigh numerous census data sets

fail

Interesting that you're dissing the Director of Purdue's Center for Religious Studies for being Catholic when your data came from an evangelical Christian source whose main purpose is prayer.

Also, the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life says

According to a 2006 survey by the Pew Global Attitudes Project, 31% of the Chinese public considers religion to be very or somewhat important in their lives, compared with only 11% who say religion is not at all important. When asked a somewhat different question in a 2005 Pew poll, an even greater percentage of the Chinese public (56%) considered religion to be very or somewhat important in their lives. pewforum.org/importance-of-religion/religion-in-china-on-the-eve-of-the-2008-beijing-olympics.aspx.

Although the numbers for those who actually consider themselves part of a religion are much lower, it is important in their lives (funny how statistics depend on the way the questions are phrased).

According to the Associaton of Religious Data Archives (ARDA), the largest religious groups in China are: Agnostic-32.63%; Chinese Universalist-32.18%; Buddhist-13.55%; Christian-7.76%; Atheists-7.60%; Other-6.28%. thearda.com/internationaldata/countries/country_52_1.asp None of these agree with your pie chart breakdown. They separate agnostic from atheist and do not use the imprecise term non-theist.

 

[Christian]

What is this wiki-dump supposed to prove to me?

I have granted you the most restrictive definition of atheism possible and used your own sources to demonstrate that your claim of 97% god-belief is incorrect.

To repeat: By the most restrictive definition of atheism, and from your own sources, these two conclusions are undeniable:

1. The number of "atheists" in China is greater than 3% of the world's population
2. Approximately 8% of the world's population are "atheists".

I don't think your profiling project is going to be successful if you can't even support your most basic claims.

Fine, let's say it's 8%. This does not change any of the structure I have presented. The claim of 3% is marginal to construction.