Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Machiavelli]

Just one guy like me on an American jury, and it would hang and hang good.

Just one defendant like Rudy Guede in an American trial, and the American jury wouldn't see evidence at all, but just listen to the guy's testimony after his plea, bargained in a deal with the prosecution.

 

[Justinian2]

Just one defendant like Rudy Guede in an American trial, and the American jury wouldn't see evidence at all, but just listen to the guy's testimony after his plea, bargained in a deal with the prosecution.

Look at the Craig's list killer. They had as much evidence on him as Rudy plus a video of him entering the room with the woman he killed. He didn't have to talk to the police, the 'murder hot line' got him a specially trained lawyer whose specialty is fighting for people accused of murder. There was no media circus. Nobody spat on him. No death penalty, but life without parole. What did he do? Before the trial he taped a bag around his head and then cut his wrists, ankles and neck. Dead as a doornail!

Like Rudy, he had no trial. But his guilt was almost certain.

And they didn't destroy his disk drives, but used the information on them to convict him.

He was a handsome doctor in training. His victim was very attractive. Nobody else was falsely accused. Case closed. Started last year and is now over, finished.

And the AK & RS story goes on and on and on.

The difference between justice in Massachusetts and Perugia is the difference between night and day.

I still think the Massachusetts legal system sucks, but I believe the Italian system sucks more.

 

[Trigood]

Hmmm.. I quite sure only one of the three quotes comes from a defense experts. It's also interesting that you consider defense experts opinions inferior per se. Should I similarly dismiss experts I don't like without pointing their errors?

Once again, you twist my words. I didn't say "defense experts were inferior per se" -- merely that they are not "the experts" in a global sense as you contended when you asked the following question of me (over and over):

You asked: "So you don't agree with the experts that estimate the ToD as 2-4 hours after the meal?"

Before that, you asked: "Does it mean you agree with the estimation of 2-4 hours after the meal, witch is the consensus of various experts in Massei Motivation?

Tell me, which "experts" do you mean in this question?

This question contains a false premise.

As in: So, when did you stop beating your wife?

I have stated, over and over again, that I do not agree with the premise in this question.

There is no "expert consensus" that Meredith died within 2-4 hours "after the meal," whatever that means, in the Massei Report.

(BTW, I still can't get a straight answer out of you whether you are referring to the start or end of the meal, which "meal," in its various parts, may have lasted in essence 3 hours. And yes, I know that t-lag goes from the start of the meal, but the very "experts" you are quoting are unclear on what they are talking about. The moniker "t-lag" does not appear in the Massei Report at all.)

The final conclusion of the Court, as given in the Massei report, in no way agrees with your assertion that "the experts" all "agree" that Meredith died 2-4 hours after eating. Viz.:

"In relation to the above, from the difficulty of restricting the range by using the criterion of gastric emptying as well as Henssge's nomogram, it is held that the time of death must be indicated by the time range for which the various experts as well as the consultants substantially [183] agree, and that is from 20 to 30 hours before the first examination on the body took place at 00:50 am on November 3, 2007 (on this point, see also page 47 of the transcript of the November 26, 2007 hearing, in which even the Sollecito defence consultant, Professor Vinci, declared himself in agreement with this range)." (Massei p 179)

In alignment with this conclusion of the Massei Report, I would adjust your question to the following:

"So do you agree with the judgment of the Court that, based on all the expert opinion heard at the trial, the ToD should be estimated asfrom 20 to 30 hours before the first examination on the body took place at 00:50 am on November 3, 2007?"

To which I will happily answer "yes."

Quote me where he's measuring from the end. All of them measure from the beginning. It was discussed already in this thread and appropriate literature were referenced.

Funny, you're the one who makes the claim he's talking about measuring from the beginning of the meal, yet you refuse to prove it, and ask me to back up the opposite. I'm not making any claim. You are.

But, really, it doesn't matter. Bacci's making a rough estimate. No pathologist worth his or her salt would say "Meredith must have died by exactly 4 hours after the moment food first touched her mouth." Sorry, it just won't happen in the reality-based courtroom.

You misunderstood my posts severely. I don't say Massei states that. He would contradict himself.

Yet, you're using the Court's reporting on various experts' opinions to contradict the entire jury of 8 people's final conclusions. Hmm. Rather a losing game, don't you think? Obviously, the jury, like juries everywhere, gave more weight to certain testimony, rather than others. So, you're asking my opinion about specific testimony that contradicts their conclusions? Like the jury, I place little weight on it, or at least less weight on it than the expert testimony that they found more credible.

Thanks, I don't blame you for trying to personalize the discussion. It is understandable when someone runs out of valid arguments

In your opinion. In my opinion, you have twisted my words and are playing games with the various experts' (unsubstantiated and not-supported-by-the-Court) opinions. It is funny how you can't simply acknowledge you are doing that, and somehow twist it again to say I have no valid arguments.

Now off for a nice weekend, good night All

Have a good weekend!

 

[Draca]

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=159462757411537&set=a.124466634244483.15396.106344459390034&ref=fbx_album#!/photo.php?pid=387359&id=106344459390034&fbid=159462750744871

In this photo you can see the cord of the lamp going to the strip under the bed and that it is plugged in.


http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=159462757411537&set=a.124466634244483.15396.106344459390034&ref=fbx_album#!/photo.php?pid=387360&id=106344459390034&fbid=159462754078204

In this photo you can see the lamp. It is not wrapped in its cord.


http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=159462757411537&set=a.124466634244483.15396.106344459390034&ref=fbx_album

In this photo the bedside table is well shown. It looks like the upper left hand corner has been swiped of contents. It also looks like the remaining items have been shoved to the right hand side of the table


I think these photos show that the bedside table was disturbed in the struggle and the lamp ended up on the floor facing the wrong direction but still plugged in.

 

[Dan O.]

Here's a clear view of the lamp:

http://www.friendsofamanda.org/lamp_between_bed_and_nightstand.jpg

Thanks Charlie. I mostly accept your synopsis but I believe there was some activity over the bed after blood was drawn.

The characteristics of the mark over "P" are more aligned with an impact than with cast off. Typically, cast off breaks into individual drops that form a doted line. Another thing to look at is the web pattern that is generated when two surfaces trapping a viscous fluid are separated. The light marks to the left can only be imprints (although there is no indication of what caused them).

Further evidence of blood letting activity, that looks like a large drip of blood on the second board under the mattress. Other possible drips are on the first board and one under the bed (next to the lamp cord near the lamp).

We all assume that it was Rudy that made the marks on the wall above the night stand. But this is only because Rudy claims to have tried to write "AF". One would think though that if Rudy made this mark he would have known it wasn't anything like an "AF". If this mark could be proven to be by Meredith's hand it would be a fitting exoneration of her friend. Unfortunately, the bumbling ILE couldn't even prove that this was Meredith't blood.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

The "mozzarella" was followed by a question mark in Massei: "caseosis (mozzarella?)". I'm not sure what "caseosis" means, exactly.

I think Massei said "vegetable fibers." (If I'm wrong, please correct.) I guess I was reading that as pieces of apple, but I realize now that apples aren't vegetables.

So, maybe I was wrong about the pizza being already digested. Wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong.

But, it still doesn't mean I accept stomach contents as valid indicators of TOD. No pathologist I've heard of has said they are, except within plus or minus hours, not a half-hour.

How about you read the fine thread, and then get back to us?

Absolutely every error you are making has been made before and corrected before repeatedly.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Just one defendant like Rudy Guede in an American trial, and the American jury wouldn't see evidence at all, but just listen to the guy's testimony after his plea, bargained in a deal with the prosecution.

That could happen alright. It would be interesting to see how he stands up under cross-examination.

 

[Danceme]

Didn't Ronchi also mention something about slippage and ligatures with the stomach? He was probably the most vague as to TOD of all the forensic analysts. He had quite a range as to TOD.

For Trigood:

According to the motivations there was recognizable apple in the stomach.

According to Ronchi there were no ligatures;

Massei p.148 "...since the examination performed by the person who carried out the autopsy does not appear to have been conducted according to the prescribed techniques of forensic pathology, i.e., the ligature of the various segments etc. ... usually ligatures are done to see how far food has reached to prevent the passage<of any ingested food into lower zones during the lifting up and turning over of the intestinal ansae loops‛"
p. 149
"He also added that, since ligatures had not been made, a certain downward slide could have occurred."

I remember reading that there was only a ligature placed between the stomach and the duodenum, but none elsewhere.

Danceme points out that I am formulating an opinion. This is correct, but it is an opinion based on a detailed examination of crime scene photos and video, augmented by discussing the evidence with experts.

Yes Charlie, you do seem to have the greatest access to the actual evidence from the trial and I for one am grateful for the numerous high quality photos you have posted and the information you've shared.

 

[Danceme]

Unfortunately, the bumbling ILE couldn't even prove that this was Meredith't blood.

Cite please.

 

[HumanityBlues]

Just one defendant like Rudy Guede in an American trial, and the American jury wouldn't see evidence at all, but just listen to the guy's testimony after his plea, bargained in a deal with the prosecution.

A jury wouldn't hear any testimony after a plea in an American proceeding.

 

[Draca]

Bloody Figer marks on wall

Thanks Charlie. I mostly accept your synopsis but I believe there was some activity over the bed after blood was drawn.

We all assume that it was Rudy that made the marks on the wall above the night stand. But this is only because Rudy claims to have tried to write "AF". One would think though that if Rudy made this mark he would have known it wasn't anything like an "AF". If this mark could be proven to be by Meredith's hand it would be a fitting exoneration of her friend. Unfortunately, the bumbling ILE couldn't even prove that this was Meredith't blood.

Dan O.,

You have often said that Rudy leaves traces of truth in what he says. It is probably his finger marks. It may even be his blood. The way the upper fingers are slightly curved to the left at the top makes me think it was a right hand. I think Rudy was right handed and also his knife handling hand.

It looks like the attack started by the bed. The mattress shoved over, the blood spot on the wall above the bed, the lamp knocked to the floor. The bloodiest area of the room is by the wardrobe so if it started by the bed it ended over by the wardrobe.

Meredith would have likely given her biggest fight at the beginning of the fight. Perhaps in the early fight and his trying to gain control of her is when he cut his hand with the knife. Then he leaned into the wall above the bedside table. This cut may have also have made him enraged.

I don't think Rudy's cut would have happened during the final assault. If he had her in control on her knees in front of him and was holding her jaw with his left hand then his right hand is clear to make the stabs and slash without his hand being hit.

Rudy's knife cuts on hand

http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/gallery/image_page.php?album_id=18&image_id=137

Photo of finger mark streaks

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Amanda-Knox-and-Raffaele-Sollecito/106344459390034?v=photos#!/photo.php?fbid=159475597410253&set=a.124466634244483.15396.106344459390034

 

[Dan O.]

Cite please.

When did you earn sufficient credit in this thread to demand citations?


I don't like the fact that there is no profile for this mark. If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will pop in here with a correction. It would please me more if I were able to say that this mark was matched to Meredith alone. That despite a vigorous rubbing of the fingers across the rough (even sharp) texture of the wall, no other DNA was deposited.

Someone dropped the ball on this one (or more precisely, the swab) and it was captured on video tape.

 

[Dan O.]

Dan O.,

You have often said that Rudy leaves traces of truth in what he says. It is probably his finger marks. It may even be his blood. The way the upper fingers are slightly curved to the left at the top makes me think it was a right hand. I think Rudy was right handed and also his knife handling hand.

Rudy also incorporates what he heard in the news into his story.

The hand that made that mark was saturated with blood as was Meredith's left hand. She stands up from the bed and puts her left hand out just to touch the wall with her fingertips to stabilize herself. I'm not sure that there would be a recognizable difference between left or right, Meredith's or Rudy's hand. Someone might need to get out the finger paints and do some experimenting.

I don't believe Rudy would have had that much of his own blood on his hand and not left his blood in other locations.

In front of the bed stand towards the bed is a cloth transfer stain. If the top of the duvet were stained while it was on the bed and then flipped over to cover Meredith after she was dead, the corner would have landed on the floor in that location before it was tucked under Meredith's arm. The uncertainty here is that a large section of the corner of the duvet had to be saturated with blood but none of it soaked through to the bed sheet before the duvet was flipped over onto the floor.

It looks like the attack started by the bed. The mattress shoved over, the blood spot on the wall above the bed, the lamp knocked to the floor. The bloodiest area of the room is by the wardrobe so if it started by the bed it ended over by the wardrobe.

I think Charlie is correct about the fight starting by the desk when the first wound is inflicted. There has to be blood already flowing when she is thrown against the wall over the bed. The next dynamic here is uncertain because she apparently stands on her own. Perhaps Rudy is in shock over what he just did.

I don't think Rudy's cut would have happened during the final assault. If he had her in control on her knees in front of him and was holding her jaw with his left hand then his right hand is clear to make the stabs and slash without his hand being hit.

Another way that this kind of wound can occur is if the hand slips down the knife onto the blade while making a stab.

 

[Draca]

Rudy also incorporates what he heard in the news into his story.

The hand that made that mark was saturated with blood as was Meredith's left hand. She stands up from the bed and puts her left hand out just to touch the wall with her fingertips to stabilize herself. I'm not sure that there would be a recognizable difference between left or right, Meredith's or Rudy's hand. Someone might need to get out the finger paints and do some experimenting.

I don't believe Rudy would have had that much of his own blood on his hand and not left his blood in other locations.

Could be right about it being Meredith's. How come we don't know who's blood it is? Does the height of the finger streaks tell us anything? If I cut my finger with a knife while cooking it bleeds immediately. Rudy's hand was severely cut and he would have bled a great deal. I don't think it is possible that his blood wasn't at the scene.

I think Charlie is correct about the fight starting by the desk when the first wound is inflicted. There has to be blood already flowing when she is thrown against the wall over the bed. The next dynamic here is uncertain because she apparently stands on her own. Perhaps Rudy is in shock over what he just did.

I think it went from the bed, to the desk, to the floor by the wardrobe. Finally flipped over and raped. I think Charlie is spot on about this part of the scenario. I think it started by the bed though.

Another way that this kind of wound can occur is if the hand slips down the knife onto the blade while making a stab.

Not sure again.

 

[treehorn]

i was going to repeat my request for a link to the time lag studies (still can't find them! this thread is huge!), but after reading the excerpt TriGood posted from the judgment (above), i'm not sure why any of the time lag debate is material owing to the fact that the Court found that the autopsy had been performed without the requisite ligatures

can one of the medical docs explain?

 

[treehorn]

Ah ha!

The Indian Journal of Pharmacology

Twenty healthy male volunteers were fed the radiolabelled meal and extracorporeal monitoring of the passage of food was done by Gamma camera imaging of the abdominal region of the volunteers. The mean (S.D) GE T1/2 was found to be 81.99 (15.5) minutes.

--------------

back in my BSc undergrad days we were taught to avoid (strenuously) the temptation to cite studies with less than 30 subjects

did anyone post the entire article?

 

[treehorn]

Journal of Gastroenterology and Hepatology:

"...there is considerable standard deviation in gastric emptying time, these results may nevertheless serve as reference values for further studies."


i seriously don't want to hassle my brothers (doctors) for their MEDLINE passwords

don't suppose anyone posted the article/ relevant excerpts

in the meantime, it must be said that it appears the authors are acknowledging that their results are of limited value: they provide only "reference values" for "further studies"

 

[treehorn]

The American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology:

"...using stomach contents as a guide to time of death involves an unacceptable degree of imprecision and is thus liable to mislead the investigator and the court."

------------

this journal is published by "National Association of Medical Examiners" (NAME)

an article in this journal purporting to survey the literature is not something that can be dismissed out of hand

against this we have:

ONE n<30 study in the Indian Journal of Pharmacology?

(my thesis supervisor always admonished his classes that "all journals are not created equal" - let's face it, bra: the IJP ain't zactly the NEJM)

and a study purporting to have found nothing more than "reference values" for "future studies"?

what else have you got?

 

[Antony]

(msg #9452, p 237)
1) Far be it from me to speak for the copevolisti community as a whole, but I can say without hesitation that reading from you here and now that Meredith was one of Amanda's best friends is indeed a remarkable first time encounter for me.

It all depends on what sources you take seriously. There has been considerable effort by some to put about reports of tension between Amanda and Meredith, but, like the reports of her alleged "lies", these can be traced back to the police and prosecution's agenda against her.

The best evidence of their friendship would have been their collections of photographs, which were held on their laptop computers. I understand that both of these (and one of Raffaele's) were wrecked by police investigators, and the defence were inexplicably refused permission to have the data recovered by the manufacturers.

The reports we have show they had the kind of relationship we would expect between 2 young women students sharing a house and a common language in a country where they were newcomers.

2) When you say "he (Rudy) was in the flat and no evidence that a 3rd person was *there*"....,
from all the reading I have done that statement is also an innovative but inaccurate 'groundbreaker' that I also cannot silently accept.

Moore's most recent and some others long before him believe there was no evidence of AK in the murder room.

There is of course plenty of evidence of Amanda and others in the flat. There is nothing significant about this: she lived there; there is no evidence at all that she was there at the time of the murder.

Note also that even these statements even so carefully and deliberately restricted, and ever so less damning than yours, still receive less than universal acceptance.

Moore and others set out to present the evidence in a comprehensive way; I don't have time to do that. The nitty-gritty details are of necessity couched in statements "carefully and deliberately restricted", but that doesn't make them in any way equivocal.

As for "less than universal acceptance", that is the reason for this discussion. You have to decide for yourself what sources to take seriously. The quality of opinion on this case isn't a matter of who can shout loudest; it's down to whether claims can be taken at face value or not.

 

[treehorn]

i wonder how many times that IJP study has been cited...