Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[loverofzion]

I am not making any factual claims about LondonJohn's background or qualifications, but anyone studying a subject past the Honours level is expected to be up to date on the current state of knowledge with regard to their topic.

Universities are chock-full of people who know "ALL the scientific/ medical literature and accumulated knowledge" in respect of their specific phenomenon/ issue/ question/ field/subfield of choice. That's the whole point of a university. You can't do research unless you get (and stay) up to date on knowledge in the field.

(As for how they do it, searchable databases and reading relevant periodicals are the usual means).

That said, even if LondonJohn doesn't have an academic interest in the specific topic, his statement it still factually correct as far as any of us have been able to ascertain. Absolutely nothing in the medical literature supports the idea that t(lag) can be five hours in a normal, healthy young woman eating a small-to-moderate sized meal of pizza with no alcohol, stress or other known confounding factors, as far as anyone here has been able to tell. So he could know nothing else about the topic at all and still be correct in that particular statement.

Let's hear that from a certified medical doctor and not just one who is "up to date" on certain scientific literature.

 

[RoseMontague]

No, it was two different knives, onlyh one of which was recovered.

Don't you read the facts.

I have read both the facts and the opinions of both the defense and prosecution experts. There are many knives that could cause all 3 major wounds, the large kitchen utensil not among those, alas.

 

[RoseMontague]

Let's hear that from a certified medical doctor and not just one who is "up to date" on certain scientific literature.

I believe a few medical doctors personally known by posters have been quoted on this, most recently by Professor Halkides. Nothing to stop you from doing the same if you are still uncertain about this subject.

 

[loverofzion]

Good piece of evidence. So good that I would like to know the source, if you would be so kind.

The people that would collaborate together on murder, like the Manson family or the terrorists, all live together in a clan, cult or group of some type for years. Guede, AK, and RS didn't even know each other (except for seeing each other once or twice). The only other type of collusion is for insurance money or inheritance. This definitely wasn't the case here.

My opinion: The given profiles don't constitute proof. However, neither does the prosecution's theory of collusion.

Nonsense.
Many murderers have colluded in their violence without resort to insurance money or collusion as in a cult or joint living arrangements.

They were dangerously high, Ak had a vendetta against Meredith; RS was the weak one drawn in- by his love of knives and violent porn, as well as by trying to please his new (first) love.

Obviously you don't get the raging hormones plus drugs and alcohol plus seemingly insignificant resentments and angers- plus AK's serious need to test the limits and "try everything " (her sister's words)- and you have a full conflaguration that ended in sexual assault and murder.

You might try reading up on group dynamics, especially where it concerns young people away from home for the first time.

 

[Danceme]

I am not making any factual claims about LondonJohn's background or qualifications, but anyone studying a subject past the Honours level is expected to be up to date on the current state of knowledge with regard to their topic.

Universities are chock-full of people who know "ALL the scientific/ medical literature and accumulated knowledge" in respect of their specific phenomenon/ issue/ question/ field/subfield of choice. That's the whole point of a university. You can't do research unless you get (and stay) up to date on knowledge in the field.

(As for how they do it, searchable databases and reading relevant periodicals are the usual means).

That said, even if LondonJohn doesn't have an academic interest in the specific topic, his statement it still factually correct as far as any of us have been able to ascertain. Absolutely nothing in the medical literature supports the idea that t(lag) can be five hours in a normal, healthy young woman eating a small-to-moderate sized meal of pizza with no alcohol, stress or other known confounding factors, as far as anyone here has been able to tell. So he could know nothing else about the topic at all and still be correct in that particular statement.

Are you saying LondonJohn or yourself have studied this subject beyond the honours level? Wow!

Can you tell me what your studies say if a normal, healthy young woman eats a small to moderate sized meal of pizza at 6:00-6:30 pm, then settles back to watch a movie while digesting, then later, she and her friends pause or stop the movie at some point around 8pm to make and eat an apple crumble. And what if she then consumed a few more nibbles of that nice homemade pizza while waiting for the crumble to cook?
Would her first slice of pizza have possibly left her stomach by 8pm? That is possibly two hours after she started eating. Would the crumble and perhaps the nibbles of extra pizza, if she had them, be the only things remaining by the time she died?

That's the problem alright. You are formulating an opinion without having the facts. I can tell you what the evidence shows: the killer threw Meredith to the floor, so she was face down on her hands and knees in front of her wardrobe, with him behind and on top of her, wielding a knife in his right hand and holding his left hand over her face to control her and to keep her from screaming. He stabbed her in the right side of her throat, and then inflicted a large, slashing wound by stabbing her in the left side of her throat and pulling the blade toward him, i.e., up and to the right. He also cut the backstrap on her bra. When she ceased to struggle, he rolled her on her back. Her shirt and her bra were pushed up above her breasts when she gasped her dying breaths, which explains the fine spattering of round blood drops on her breasts and torso.

Then he moved her a few feet to the position where she was found. He put a pillow under her buttocks. He cut her bra away and left it at her feet. He removed her pants and underwear and assaulted her sexually. When he was finished with that, he went into the bathroom and cleaned himself up, using the bidet as a fountain and removing his right shoe at some point, which is when he left his bare footprint on the mat.

After he had cleaned himself up, he went back into her room, pulled the quilt off the bed, and spread it over her. He sat on the edge of the bed with the bloody knife and went through her purse. Then he walked out of the room, locked the door behind him, and left a trail of shoe prints starting in her room and running down the corridor toward the exit, with each successive step becoming fainter.

That is what really happened to Meredith Kercher. The rest is a fairy tale.

Charlie, are you not doing exactly what you are accusing Machiavelli of doing? You are also formulating an opinion.

In the same way as I know that the Earth revolves around the Sun, and not the other way around.

Good to hear you are so certain. Perhaps you can answer my question above about what the state of digestion would show were even one of your parameters off.

Look again Charlie. In the photo you just posted the lamp cord is plugged into the power strip which appears to be plugged into the wall behind the bed. I believe there may be a later photo showing the lamp as you described after the investigators got through tossing the room.


My thought is that Meredith could have used the lamps earlier to photograph her vampire costume.
http://video.about.com/desktopvideo/Lighting--Effect-of-Direction.htm

4. Light from below is a stylized choice. Often used in horror and suspense films for it eerie effect.
You can achieve this setup by placing your source under the level of your subjects shoulders. For better results with this setup, place your light close to the subject, as its dramatic tone usually calls for strong shadows.​

The proof of this would be in her original photographs if they can be recovered.

That is an astonishing piece of conjecture.

 

[loverofzion]

I have read both the facts and the opinions of both the defense and prosecution experts. There are many knives that could cause all 3 major wounds, the large kitchen utensil not among those, alas.

Again, nonsense.
It matched the wounds perfectly.

Where do you get this?

 

[RoseMontague]

Again, nonsense.
It matched the wounds perfectly.

Where do you get this?

The Massei report for one, as well as both appeals.

 

[christianahannah]

The lamp between the bed and the nightstand was on the floor, unplugged, with the cord wrapped around the stand, which to me suggests it was not working properly. The desk lamp from Amanda's room was found behind Meredith's door. My best guess is that Meredith borrowed it because her lamp wasn't working, it was on her desk, and it got knocked to the floor during the struggle. It ended up inside the arc of the doorway, so it was pushed behind the door, and the plug was pulled from the wall socket, when the door was broken down the next day.

To the best of my knowledge, no forensic tests were performed on the cloth bag.

Charlie do you have a list of the items collected and tested? I think there were some 200 items with over 400 reference samples tested from those items.

 

[RoseMontague]

Evidently there is another non-working desk lamp from that picture of the cleaning supply closet. Must be some really cheap lamps in that cottage.

 

[LondonJohn]

Are you saying LondonJohn or yourself have studied this subject beyond the honours level? Wow!

Can you tell me what your studies say if a normal, healthy young woman eats a small to moderate sized meal of pizza at 6:00-6:30 pm, then settles back to watch a movie while digesting, then later, she and her friends pause or stop the movie at some point around 8pm to make and eat an apple crumble. And what if she then consumed a few more nibbles of that nice homemade pizza while waiting for the crumble to cook?
Would her first slice of pizza have possibly left her stomach by 8pm? That is possibly two hours after she started eating. Would the crumble and perhaps the nibbles of extra pizza, if she had them, be the only things remaining by the time she died?

"Nibbles of pizza"???

These arguments are stretching credibility now. And if the earlier pizza meal had indeed passed out of Meredith's stomach, it would have been present in her upper small intestine (and probably also her duodenum) at the time of her death. However, nothing whatsoever was found in any part of Meredith's digestive system except for the 500ml in her stomach and a small amount of chyme matter at the very end of her small intestine.

Digested food usually reaches the end of the small intestine between 8 and 12 hours after ingestion. In other words, even if Meredith were killed at 11.30pm, the matter at the end of her small intestine most likely was ingested before 3.30pm - and not 6.00-6.30pm. Or if Meredith was killed at around 9.30pm, this would correspond to food eaten at around or before 1.30pm - exactly the kind of time Meredith might have had something light to eat for lunch.

 

[Justinian2]

Nonsense.
Many murderers have colluded in their violence without resort to insurance money or collusion as in a cult or joint living arrangements.

They were dangerously high, Ak had a vendetta against Meredith; RS was the weak one drawn in- by his love of knives and violent porn, as well as by trying to please his new (first) love.

Obviously you don't get the raging hormones plus drugs and alcohol plus seemingly insignificant resentments and angers- plus AK's serious need to test the limits and "try everything " (her sister's words)- and you have a full conflaguration that ended in sexual assault and murder.

You might try reading up on group dynamics, especially where it concerns young people away from home for the first time.

Opposing viewpoints never solve anything; please provide a link to studies on your claim that: "Many murderers have colluded in their violence without resort to insurance money or collusion as in a cult or joint living arrangements."

You might also give me a reference to this claim: "You might try reading up on group dynamics, especially where it concerns young people away from home for the first time"

I will read your references. Have you read the ones I've provided?

 

[LondonJohn]

Again, nonsense.
It matched the wounds perfectly.

Where do you get this?

What do you mean by "it matched the wounds perfectly"? You're making it sound like there was an almost 1-to-1 correlation between the kitchen knife and the slash wounds on Meredith's neck. In reality, the kitchen knife was "consistent" with these wounds - but then so is every non-serrated knife with a blade length of over around 5cm (these wounds weren't made by a medical scalpel, for example).

On the other hand, it's perfectly possible that the knife which made the piercing stabbing wound to Meredith's neck made all the wounds. I feel confident that if no knives had been found, most experts would be concluding that one knife made all the wounds. In my view, it's only because the prosecutors feel they have identified the kitchen knife as a murder weapon (but see what the appeals say about that....) that they've had to stretch their theory to include two or more knives.

 

[LondonJohn]

That is an astonishing piece of conjecture.

The lamps were quite clearly used by Knox and Sollecito to light up the crime scene. They have been placed in the classic positions to illuminate the body and the surrounding floor area.

Oh wait a minute.....Meredith's lamp is actually pointing directly away from the murder scene? Oh well, that's my theory gone down the pan.

 

[loverofzion]

Good piece of evidence. So good that I would like to know the source, if you would be so kind.

The people that would collaborate together on murder, like the Manson family or the terrorists, all live together in a clan, cult or group of some type for years. Guede, AK, and RS didn't even know each other (except for seeing each other once or twice). The only other type of collusion is for insurance money or inheritance. This definitely wasn't the case here.

My opinion: The given profiles don't constitute proof. However, neither does the prosecution's theory of collusion.

Attached please read a small introduction to group dynamics in violent assaults:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/74530/gang_rape_a_psychological_perspective_pg2.html?cat=9

 

[loverofzion]

What do you mean by "it matched the wounds perfectly"? You're making it sound like there was an almost 1-to-1 correlation between the kitchen knife and the slash wounds on Meredith's neck. In reality, the kitchen knife was "consistent" with these wounds - but then so is every non-serrated knife with a blade length of over around 5cm (these wounds weren't made by a medical scalpel, for example).

On the other hand, it's perfectly possible that the knife which made the piercing stabbing wound to Meredith's neck made all the wounds. I feel confident that if no knives had been found, most experts would be concluding that one knife made all the wounds. In my view, it's only because the prosecutors feel they have identified the kitchen knife as a murder weapon (but see what the appeals say about that....) that they've had to stretch their theory to include two or more knives.

There wwas incontrovertible evidence of two different sized knives making the wounds.

Please stop with the fantastic fabrications.

 

[RoseMontague]

Attached please read a small introduction to group dynamics in violent assaults:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/74530/gang_rape_a_psychological_perspective_pg2.html?cat=9

What does this article have to do with Raffaele and Amanda? They were not members of Rudy's basketball team nor were they all men.

 

[Dan O.]

The vampire costuem was from the night before tghe murder.
It is hihgly unlikely that Amanda would have left the lamp that she needed to see at night in Meredith's room for 2 days.

Amanda wasn't in her room for the last 2 nights. She was spending the nights at Raffaele's place.

The probable scenario is that AK and RS used it to search carefully on the floor during the clean up.
It has been proposed that Meredith pulled an earring out of Ak's ear, hence her blood, and she was scrambling on the floor with the lamp to search for it.

But you can alays dream up more fantastical ones.

I could never compete with yours.

 

[Justinian2]

Attached please read a small introduction to group dynamics in violent assaults:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/74530/gang_rape_a_psychological_perspective_pg2.html?cat=9

From your reference: "Those who are usually involved in gang rape are members of a fraternity or of a football or basketball team (Conklin, 36)."

Isn't that what I've been saying? This type of thing would be done by members of a close, intimate and tight knit group.

I said murder was done by a group that lived together for some time and gave the examples of terrorist cells and the Manson family.

I have given the "The Hidden Brain" by Shankar Vedantam which talks about group dynamics. Chapter 7 discusses the terrorist cell. Chapter 8 discusses the group biases and the reason for prejudice. Chapter 1 deals with how eye witness can be wrong and yet, with the help of the police, think they are certain.

Chapter 7 discusses the terrorist groups and their reasons. The consistant trait is that the terrorists all belong to a support group that all believe the same. Armies are built around squads that live together, train together, and are taught to think alike. The army squad follows the standard model for group violence.

Guede wasn't part of AK and RS's group, let alone a close member over a period of months or years. Ever hear that "Three's a crowd?"

 

[RoseMontague]

Isn't that what I've been saying? This type of thing would be done by members of a close, intimate and tight knit group.

I said murder was done by a group that lived together for some time and gave the examples of terrorist cells and the Manson family.

I have given the "The Hidden Brain" by Shankar Vedantam which talks about group dynamics. Chapter 7 discusses the terrorist cell. Chapter 8 discusses the group biases and the reason for prejudice. Chapter 1 deals with how eye witness can be wrong and yet, with the help of the police, think they are certain.

Chapter 7 discusses the terrorist groups and their reasons. The consistant trait is that the terrorists all belong to a support group that all believe the same. Armies are built around squads that live together, train together, and are taught to think alike. The army squad follows the standard model for group violence.

Guede wasn't part of AK and RS's group, let alone a close member over a period of months or years. Ever hear that "Three's a crowd?"

I agree. The article that Loverofzion quoted actually argues against Amanda and Raffaele participating in a group sexual assault.

 

[LondonJohn]

There wwas incontrovertible evidence of two different sized knives making the wounds.

Please stop with the fantastic fabrications.

What's this "incontrovertible evidence" of which you speak? The wounds observed at the autopsy certainly don't provide this evidence. I am supposing that you might mean that if one assumes that the kitchen knife made at least some of the wounds, then by definition at least one other knife was involved. But that's a second-order argument. The wounds themselves don't automatically suggest two or more knives. And less talk of "fantastical fabrications" please.