How far have we come with homosexuality?

[TraneWreck]

I tend to disagree.
Look at the "Yes on Prop 8" rallies and the "No on prop 8" rallies.
Both are widely mixed in terms of age.

While I do think it's a factor, religious and political messages are stronger.
I can't think of a single self identified liberal I know, of any age, who's in favor of outlawing gay marriage.

I'm going on average. A few people yelling loudly implies more support than they actually have.

4 gay kid commited suicide at my high school in the heart of Bible-thumping Kansas. This was just a decade ago. Now there's a sizeable gay-straight alliance club.

There will always be bigots, but in 25 years we will think of the anti-gay marriage groups like we currently think of the anti-miscegenation crowd.

 

[Fnord]

... Where were they? They were staying in the freaking closet because coming out could easily cost them their friendships, their jobs, their families and even their lives.

Meanwhile, those on the front lines of the civil rights movement were both risking and losing their friendships, thier jobs, their families and even their lives.

Seems to me that the "gay community" (in all of its various forms) has rightfully earned their current lack of support.

 

[Cavemonster]

Meanwhile, those on the front lines of the civil rights movement were both risking and losing their friendships, thier jobs, their families and even their lives.

Seems to me that the "gay community" (in all of its various forms) has rightfully earned their current lack of support.

You mean the gay community that didn't exist?

That's a bit like holding software developers accountable for the French revolution.

There were plenty of gay people involved in the civil rights movement, they just couldn't be open about their sexuality.

 

[quadraginta]

I don't think there's any question that a great deal of progress has been made in my lifetime so far.

There also isn't any question that a great deal of progress remains to be made.

When I was a teenager the very idea that someone who was openly gay could be elected to public office was ridiculous. You would still get failed for security clearances just because of the threat of potential for blackmail. Being labeled as "queer" would ruin your career, your social life, and probably any family you had. Beating up "fags" for recreation was almost viewed as a public service.

Now it is certainly tolerated, if sometimes grudgingly. There is even a small core of people who have managed acceptance. Too small, perhaps, but growing. At the very least it is becoming unfashionable to openly condemn people for being gay, and those who do open themselves to ridicule in return. Now we have openly gay U.S. Senators.

But it'll be a while before we see an openly gay President. Heck, it'll be a while before we see an openly unmarried President. Or an atheist one.

As long as gays have to struggle with the question of "outing" themselves, or as long as anyone has reason to fear being "outed" we haven't made enough progress. So there's a long way to go.

When a person's sexual or gender orientation is no more remarkable than their hair or eye color, or their religion ... or lack thereof, then we will have made enough progress.

 

[Rufo]

Attitudes are progressing differently in different cultures. A person's situation is frequently dependent on several of those; you live in a country with a certain culture, the local attitudes may differ from those, you might be part of religous group that has yet different approaches and take part in various subcultures with their own attitudes about homosexuality. Some of these are changing in one direction, others in another. It's a pretty complicated network of changes.

All in all, I'd say things are moving in the right direction, towards acceptance and openness. Of course, this causes a certain amount of conflict with the people who disagree, which means the change won't be frictionless. I'd guess that it's this "friction" that causes the sort of problems that Darat describes above, rather than a lack of progress.

What bugs me are those who are "openly" gay, and who demand that I show them more respect for no other reason than they're gay. I'd rather have the freedom to give my respect to someone who excels in some profession, skill, talent or craft that has nothing to do with their preferred sexual activities. For example, Elton John is a great composer, singer and pianist, and for those things, I respect and admire him. But if he ever starts demanding that the world give him even greater honor for being gay, then my respect for him will likely end.

I mean, "they" don't exactly give out Nobel prizes for heterosexuality, so why should homosexuality receive any greater honor than what heterosexuality receives (or vice-versa)? I know ... false analogy ... but why should one form have greater honor or respect than the other? Why should those who practice one form or the other demand greater respect or honor for nothing more than their prefered sexual activity?

If you feel that homosexual people are personally demanding respect from you, they are likely referring to the fundamental respect you are supposed to have for any other human being and their right to make their own choices. If you have that, you really shouldn't worry about this.

On the other hand, if you do feel there's a pressure from somewhere to consider open homosexuality to be admirable, consider the inequalities and aggression that people risk facing from their surroundings by being open with their sexual orientation. It might be fair to admire people who dare to take this step and face the consequences. It's a tougher for many than you might think, and this can be considered enough to warrant special respect.

 

[quadraginta]

Meanwhile, those on the front lines of the civil rights movement were both risking and losing their friendships, thier jobs, their families and even their lives.

Seems to me that the "gay community" (in all of its various forms) has rightfully earned their current lack of support.

Has it occurred to you that the situations are not analogous?

I'm trying to imagine an African American "coming out".

"Look, everyone! I'm Black! Betcha didn't notice. "

There were, of course, people who were able to "pass" as white whose ancestry later became known, during our very bad old days. Mostly the results weren't any better for them than they were for gays. There have been plenty of works built around this theme.

Even a musical. Most people don't think about the plot behind "Showboat". It was about racial prejudice, and began with a woman being "outed" as a Negro when she was "passing" as white. Worse still, she was married to a white guy. The plot of the story revolves around the wreckage of her life after she is hounded out of the state.

That part does bear a certain similarity, I guess.

 

[openingmind]

Gays in politics is a good point...

Even in Utah (where I live) our state congress has two openly gay members who are championing gay rights.

Harvey Milk (gay city council member in San Francisco in the '70s) certainly paved a road. Unfortunately, there's no nationally known charismatic gay leader like Harvey Milk now -- although there are definitely a lot of smart, hardworking, outspoken people.

 

[Pardalis]

I think we've come a long way, but there is still an underlying pejorative feeling with the word "gay", even among self-described "progressives".

For example, among straight men who consider themselves liberal and unprejudiced against homosexuals, there's still a fear of appearing "gay", or doing something that will look "gay", which to me shows that there is still somewhere in their mind some remnant of homophobia.

 

[mediocrity511]

I think we're getting there. My impression is that the vast majority of people now believe that homosexuality shouldn't be illegal and that it is natural. There are fewer people who believe that homosexuals should be allowed to marry or have children, but I have noticed an increase in numbers over the past few years. I have a gay father and have noticed a massive shift in people's reactions to that fact from when he came out (around 8 years ago) to the present day.

 

[cwalner]

I would like to add what one of my biggest peeves about lack of progress.

The casual use amongst younger people of words like 'fag' and 'gay' to be general insults, not even meant to imply somebody is homosexual.

When I can, I calmly explain to them how insulting it is to me when they try to insult somebody else by saying he/she is like me.

It only works sometimes.

 

[KingMerv00]

How do you respond to people who, hearing the biological evidence, say "It's still an aberration." (As if because homosexuality occurs at only ~5%, or whichever figure you want, that it's invalid or a biological mistake.)

Even if I accept your "biologically abberant" argument, it is irrelevant. Do you think it is OK to treat people with OCD as less than human?

 

[TraneWreck]

I would like to add what one of my biggest peeves about lack of progress.

The casual use amongst younger people of words like 'fag' and 'gay' to be general insults, not even meant to imply somebody is homosexual.

When I can, I calmly explain to them how insulting it is to me when they try to insult somebody else by saying he/she is like me.

It only works sometimes.

Did you see the South Park episode on that subject? Just curious, I thought they had a funny take based on the etymology of the word, "fag."

 

[Dr. Keith]

For example, among straight men who consider themselves liberal and unprejudiced against homosexuals, there's still a fear of appearing "gay", or doing something that will look "gay", which to me shows that there is still somewhere in their mind some remnant of homophobia.

This. And I am guilty.

I drive a Passat, don't have a wedding ring, shave my head, have a pretty natural tan and try to dress well without looking conservative. (Imagine a well dressed Andrew Zimmern.*)

But I drew the line at putting the Apple sticker on the car. Sure, I have just about every Apple product one would need, but I just didn't need the added attention.


*Yes, I know Andrew is not gay, but I look more like him than Mo Rocca.

 

[Dr. Keith]

The casual use amongst younger people of words like 'fag' and 'gay' to be general insults, not even meant to imply somebody is homosexual.

I hear this a lot when talking to car people: "Those wheels are gay" or "that paint job is gay."

I try to point out that any gay person would have made a much better looking product than the one they are dissing.

Sometimes they just take it as a further insult of the product, but often they catch the fact that calling it gay was just a lazy bigoted way to express their distaste. The smile is completely different.

One nice change is that the ultimate insult for a car now is a "hairdressers" car which always seems to imply a woman who cares more about looks than substance. Not that I approve of such labeling, but see the above post and you will note my lack of care for hairdressers in general.

 

[mediocrity511]

Hmm I always assumed that "hairdressers" car was another euphemism for gay, at least over here there is a stereotype that most male hairdressers are homosexual and flamboyant.

 

[TraneWreck]

There are a lot of polls out there, and they all seem to show a promising trend:

Gallup has recorded a gradual increase in adherence to the belief that homosexuality is an acceptable alternative lifestyle. Agreement with this proposition has risen from 38% in 1992 to 52% today.

Gallup first asked about the legality of homosexuality in 1977, with a basic question worded as follows: "Do you think homosexual relations between consenting adults should or should not be legal?" At that point, Americans were evenly divided on the issue: 43% said yes, 43% said no and 14% weren’t sure.

Gallup has asked the question numerous times since then, and at the last asking in the May 2001 poll, a majority — for the first time — agreed with the "legal" perspective. Fifty-four percent of those interviewed said that homosexual relations should be legal, 42% not legal, with 4% unsure. The percentage saying that homosexual relations should be legal dropped to as low as 32% in 1986, perhaps due to either the conservative environment ushered in by the Reagan administration, or the beginning of widespread publicity surrounding AIDS and its prevalence in the homosexual community.

http://www.glapn.org/sodomylaws/usa/usnews32.htm

 

[quadraginta]

I hear this a lot when talking to car people: "Those wheels are gay" or "that paint job is gay."

I try to point out that any gay person would have made a much better looking product than the one they are dissing.
Sometimes they just take it as a further insult of the product, but often they catch the fact that calling it gay was just a lazy bigoted way to express their distaste. The smile is completely different.

One nice change is that the ultimate insult for a car now is a "hairdressers" car which always seems to imply a woman who cares more about looks than substance. Not that I approve of such labeling, but see the above post and you will note my lack of care for hairdressers in general.

Mrs. qg says to quit dissing our Miata.



And since it was designed and built with the express purpose of being a better British sports car than anything the Brits ever managed you may owe the UK an apology, as well.

Sort of.

 

[openingmind]

I think we've come a long way, but there is still an underlying pejorative feeling with the word "gay"

You know what's funny about that is that "gay" as a label was first appropriated by homosexuals; it's not a term heterosexuals invented to use to describe homosexuals.

The perjorative meaning is mostly experienced by heterosexuals. Most gay people I know don't think "gay" is perjorative at all.

And, KingMerv00, that's an interesting comparison. I've been trying to think of biological aberrations (by which I mean atypical) that no one attaches a stigma to at all. OCD can be said to be a biological aberration, but as it's a "mental illness," I wouldn't want to respond to a person calling homosexuality an aberration with "Well, so is OCD. Do you treat OCD people like sub-humans?"

Of course I think OCD people, and all mentally people, ought to be treated with respect. I'm just wondering what other atypical biologies there are that might serve as a better example.

It's atypical for people to be born white-skinned if they come from black-skinned parents, or black-skinned if they come from white-skinned parents, but do we think of that as an "aberration"?

Hmmm...it's a poor analogy because skin color doesn't have anything to do with behavior and when people say homosexuality is an "aberration" they mean homosexual behavior (not biology). Well, they might mean the biology, but it's behavior they reallly care about.

So what kind of biological/behavioral difference among people is there that might serve here?

 

[NoScotsman]

This is the great civil rights fight of this generation ... and sadly, progress is slow. Homophobia is everywhere: Even as a straight guy I see it whenever I'm out with a male friend or colleague (eating dinner, walking around, bar-hopping, etc.).

I think straight people need to step up their game ... in fact, I'd like to start a "straight-only" event for gay rights ... People (even the media) seem to marginalize or dismiss gay rights events that are attended primarily by gays/lesbians. It'd be difficult to marginalize a "straight only" event.

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

For me, I was pretty sheltered. I didn't even know being homosexual was a big deal until I went to college. I was born in 1981 in Massachusetts, in a liberal suburb right outside of Boston. Gay people have been on TV for as long as I can remember. Granted when I was younger, they were often in "very special episodes" like those mentioned above, in which the entire point of the episode was either educating about AIDS, or simply about how homosexuals are human beings too. But by the time I was a teen, I was seeing gay characters in TV shows, comic books, etc, in which there was simply a gay character. And not just in one shot "very special" episodes. There would just be a gay main character, and it's not like the POINT was that they were gay. They just happened to be gay.

I literally didn't personally know anyone under the age of 60 who was homophobic. I didn't see gay people holding hands or kissing all the time, but I did see it every now and again, and around where I was, no one seemed to give them a second glance. There were gay pride events at my school and around town, and I never heard a word of protest against them. The Catholic church I went to was even gay friendly, with openly gay members.

In my high school, it was actually TRENDY to be gay or bisexual. There was a term we used called BUG (bisexual until graduation) to denote a person who wasn't really gay or bi, but acted like they were just to be cool and edgy. There were three different gay couples at my prom, and they weren't harassed or anything. The president of my sister's student council was a gay goth kid.

I was really quite shocked when I left Massachusetts for Florida for college. I saw a gay couple holding hands walking down the street, and people would jeer at them. I'd hear people mocking homosexuals in casual conversation. I'd hear about gay kids at my school getting mocked and bullied. It was really quite shocking and saddening for me. Prior to that, I had never thought of being gay as being a big deal at all.


It's so strange to me that within the same country - sometimes even the same state! - you can have two gay people born in two different places and they have completely different life experiences. Go to my high school, and being gay, if anything, got you extra social points. But then you have that girl in Mississippi who was barred from her own prom and ostracized by her whole town for being gay. It's really sad how where you live can just change your whole life.