Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Machiavelli]

Yes, it's certainly true that the phone could still have been at the cottage during the 22:13 connection. What the defence are challenging, I think, is Massei's conclusion that it was still in the cottage at that time ("Up until 22:13:19 at least, the phone was in the student’s [=Meredith’s] house") - as you note, a mistaken conclusion, given the variability of cell phone connections etc. They point out that although technically it could have been in the cottage, it could also have been on the way to the garden, and in fact the signal is strongest there. I don't think anyone is suggesting the cell phone ping is absolute proof the phone was out of the cottage at that time.

The 22:13 conncection means nothing. It is not true that the connection is stronger in tha gardn than from Meredith's window. It is not true that the 300064 cell is an unusual connection. Although I don't have the phone records of the previous week on Meredith's phone number, the judges on the basis of the records reported that connections to this cell were frequent on Meredith's phone during the previous days:

(..)Analogamente, l’mms in arrivo alle 22:13, che trova il cellulare inglese nella zona di Ponte Rio – Montelaguardia, non dà affatto la dimostrazione che a quell’ora l’apparecchio si trovasse già nei pressi della casa della signora L. B.: i tabulati dei giorni precedenti, come puntualmente osservato dal P.M., documentano al contrario che molte delle comunicazioni relative a quell’apparecchio andavano ad impegnare quella stessa cella, il che sta a significare che vi era un normale rimbalzo fra le celle più direttamente interessanti la zona di Via della Pergola e la cella in questione (a meno di ipotizzare, fuori dalla logica, che M. se ne andasse a passeggio in Via Spe-randio ogni volta che dovesse chiamare i propri familiari). (Judge P. Micheli's report, p. 43)

 

[loverofzion]

And Oprah is a billionaire. Marriott can't buy her. She did that program because she believes Amanda and Raffaele are innocent.

Well if Oprah believes it then----what?!

 

[Dan O.]

the judges on the basis of the records reported that connections to this cell were frequent on Meredith's phone during the previous days:

(..)Analogamente, l’mms in arrivo alle 22:13, che trova il cellulare inglese nella zona di Ponte Rio – Montelaguardia, non dà affatto la dimostrazione che a quell’ora l’apparecchio si trovasse già nei pressi della casa della signora L. B.: i tabulati dei giorni precedenti, come puntualmente osservato dal P.M., documentano al contrario che molte delle comunicazioni relative a quell’apparecchio andavano ad impegnare quella stessa cella, il che sta a significare che vi era un normale rimbalzo fra le celle più direttamente interessanti la zona di Via della Pergola e la cella in questione (a meno di ipotizzare, fuori dalla logica, che M. se ne andasse a passeggio in Via Spe-randio ogni volta che dovesse chiamare i propri familiari). (Judge P. Micheli's report, p. 43)

That document of earlier phone records would be useful to show the regularity with which Meredith called her mother. Do you happen to have it?

Of course, I note in the report you quote that Micheli only mentions the observation of the P.M. and not a direct view of the document. Was this document actually submitted as evidence?

 

[Justinian2]

Originally Posted by Justinian2
Perhaps I share the same Irish, Scotch, English and German genes that Amanda has because I understand her perfectly and know she is telling the truth.

When I was young and good health, sometimes I would feel faint when the blood vessels dialitated due to heat and standing still for awhile. A lot of soldiers faint when standing at attention for a long time. My solution wasn't cartwheels, but touching my toes. I would touch my toes when under stress.

Same for her other mannerisms; I understand them all because I understand myself.

The only difference is, I would have punched a few of the police. My only felony charges came from fighting the police when they got nasty (3 or 4 times)

Whoa hold on.
Because your ancestors come from some of the same countries as Ms. Knox then you are able to understand her thoughts and feelings perfectly?
Can you do that with everybody who has English, German etc. genes or is it just certain people who are up for murder.

See the word Perhaps? My theory about why I understand Amanda Knox (the genes) perhaps needs some qualification. The following is a fact upon which I based my theory:

The courts call what we see, hear and touch to facts an eye-witness account.

When I was young and good health, sometimes I would feel faint when the blood vessels dialitated due to heat and standing still for awhile. A lot of soldiers faint when standing at attention for a long time. My solution wasn't cartwheels, but touching my toes. I would touch my toes when under stress.

I think this is a more logical explaination for the cartwheels other that the biased explaination provided by the media.

Also, I think being an American and having the same cultural and genetic background permits me to understand her perfectly. I understand Amanda perfectly and yet have no understanding at all for the European/police/prosecution beliefs - they are as totally alien to me as Mussolini of a recent era and the death sports of the old roman coliseum. It is not only a genetic kinship I share with Amanda, but a cultural kinship.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

rethinking the case based on the putative semen stain

Never really checked.
Not sure how if it would have been, howit would help the case of Amanda though...

This was discussed on September 15th on this thread. I think it is helpful to consider first what ILE did at the time and them to consider the appeal. For ILE not to test the stain while they were gathering evidence in a murder/sexual assault case is extremely mystifying. I suspect that Raffaele’s appeal mentions it partly to highlight how incomplete this investigation has been (no reference footprints from Laura or Filomena, for example). As another poster indicated, if it is Rudy’s semen, then it discredits anything he said that was used against Raffaele. This is a very good point, IMO. If it belongs to someone else entirely (not Giacomo), then one has to rethink the whole case.

There is one extra reason for us to discuss this at JREF. As Sherlock Holmes and lionking implied, there are doubtless pro-guilt posters who think that pro-innocence posters will never give up their belief that AK and RS are innocent. The putative semen stain is a good counterexample. I, for one, would totally rethink the case if it were RS’s, and I believe that LondonJohn said almost the same thing.

 

[Alt+F4]

Mussolini's original Fascist documents show that Fascism also believed in the authority of government. This is Italy, is it not? Some of the disproven old beliefs still prevail.

Do you have any evidence that these convictions are connected in any way to Italy's fascist past?

Since the witch trials of Massachusetts, I have never seen a woman in America treated as horribly by the press, government and the people as Amanda has.

Ann Hutchinson and Ethel Rosenberg.

In fact one has to go back to the 1950's in the deep south to find prejudice against accused black men to find anything comparable in America.

Please explain the connection between racism against blacks in the 1950s United States with the murder conviction of an American student in Italy in 2007.

 

[Alt+F4]

Also, I think being an American and having the same cultural and genetic background permits me to understand her perfectly.

Genetic background? Are you related to Amanda Knox? Genetics is a discipline of biology.

 

[christianahannah]

This was discussed on September 15th on this thread. I think it is helpful to consider first what ILE did at the time and them to consider the appeal. For ILE not to test the stain while they were gathering evidence in a murder/sexual assault case is extremely mystifying. I suspect that Raffaele’s appeal mentions it partly to highlight how incomplete this investigation has been (no reference footprints from Laura or Filomena, for example). As another poster indicated, if it is Rudy’s semen, then it discredits anything he said that was used against Raffaele. This is a very good point, IMO. If it belongs to someone else entirely (not Giacomo), then one has to rethink the whole case.

There is one extra reason for us to discuss this at JREF. As Sherlock Holmes and lionking implied, there are doubtless pro-guilt posters who think that pro-innocence posters will never give up their belief that AK and RS are innocent. The putative semen stain is a good counterexample. I, for one, would totally rethink the case if it were RS’s, and I believe that LondonJohn said almost the same thing.

Chris, were Rudy's statements used against Raffaele? Didn't even the court not believe Rudy's words?

As to why the stain was not tested Stefanoni gives this reason in the motivations:

Page 219:

She stated that the pillow was found half under the pelvis of the body. Analysis was not done on the pillow because it was considered more useful to use it for print analysis, whether of shoeprints or handprints.

Was it the handprint on the pillowcase which was instrumental in pointing towards Rudy? I believe the shoeprint is disupted, but was presented in court as possible evidence of perhaps belonging to a small size shoe or Rudy's shoe, depending on which side you fall.

That being said, I think it should be allowed for the stain to be tested as requested in the appeal.

 

[christianahannah]

The 22:13 conncection means nothing. It is not true that the connection is stronger in tha gardn than from Meredith's window. It is not true that the 300064 cell is an unusual connection. Although I don't have the phone records of the previous week on Meredith's phone number, the judges on the basis of the records reported that connections to this cell were frequent on Meredith's phone during the previous days:

(..)Analogamente, l’mms in arrivo alle 22:13, che trova il cellulare inglese nella zona di Ponte Rio – Montelaguardia, non dà affatto la dimostrazione che a quell’ora l’apparecchio si trovasse già nei pressi della casa della signora L. B.: i tabulati dei giorni precedenti, come puntualmente osservato dal P.M., documentano al contrario che molte delle comunicazioni relative a quell’apparecchio andavano ad impegnare quella stessa cella, il che sta a significare che vi era un normale rimbalzo fra le celle più direttamente interessanti la zona di Via della Pergola e la cella in questione (a meno di ipotizzare, fuori dalla logica, che M. se ne andasse a passeggio in Via Spe-randio ogni volta che dovesse chiamare i propri familiari). (Judge P. Micheli's report, p. 43)

Machiavelli, how do you explain the incompatibility of the cell tower of the text received by Amanda at 20:18 to Raffaele's flat and the compatibility of her phone calls the next day on the same cell tower which is stated compatible with Raffaele's flat?

 

[LondonJohn]

Machiavelli, how do you explain the incompatibility of the cell tower of the text received by Amanda at 20:18 to Raffaele's flat and the compatibility of her phone calls the next day on the same cell tower which is stated compatible with Raffaele's flat?

I think it's helpful to us all that Massei (and his confederates) makes such a ridiculous and explicit error in regard to this issue (contradicting himself on whether the Via dell’Aquila 5-Torre dell’Acquedotto sector 3 base station covered Sollecito's apartment). It gives a very useful pointer as to the quality of reasoning in the Massei document as a whole.

 

[Fuji]

Ha! You call it the Meredith Kercher case!

I fail to see why my reference to the matter at hand as "the Meredith Kercher case" is worthy of your derision. I suppose I could refer to it as "the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito/Rudy Guede case", but I find that to be an unwieldy construction. It is not unusual for murder cases where there are multiple assailants and a single victim to be referred to by the name of the victim.

Whatever. The implication is that you do not see anything wrong imprisoning people, such as AK and RS, if there is even one in a thousand chance of their being actually guilty. Your implied dogma is that anybody that might be guilty of murder should be in jail.

From what statements of mine do you draw such inferences? I am very curious, as nothing I have explicitly stated here or elsewhere even approaches what you are attributing to me.

Mussolini's original Fascist documents show that Fascism also believed in the authority of government. This is Italy, is it not? Some of the disproven old beliefs still prevail.

On what basis do you make this assessment that fascist elements "still prevail" in Italy? I hope it is not simply because there was a fascist regime in power in Italy over 65 years ago, because by that same argument, I could assert that the USA is a land where the ethos of eugenic sterilizations, deportations based on race, and nuclear incineration of civilians "still prevails".

Since the witch trials of Massachusetts, I have never seen a woman in America treated as horribly by the press, government and the people as Amanda has. In fact one has to go back to the 1950's in the deep south to find prejudice against accused black men to find anything comparable in America.

What is your standard of evaluation for making such a claim? Are you comparing her to other convicted murderesses?

 

[Dan O.]

I hear from Dan O. that there is a dent with blood and hair above the bed. (Dan, you were going to send me the link that shows this... )

Everybody keeps asking me for citations. Do you think I'm lying about this stuff?

I thought I already replied earlier. This mark is clearly visible in the crime scene video of Nov. 3rd. at time mark 12:45:20 just before it gets obliterated. Stills from the video were originally posted on FOA as sample 176 but that sample was in Filomena's room and the link to the stills is now dead. The mark is mentioned in Micheli: "On the left wall above the bed, mt. The floor and 0.61 meters. 2.28 rear wall, is a small blood stain, irregular in shape, the size of cm. Long and 3 cm. 1 wide, with striations parallel needle at the top and right eye (..)." (google translated)

If there isn't a detail photo, Charlie could probably pull a good image of this spot from the Spheron imagery. It's on the wall that separates Amanda's and Meredith's rooms right above the bed on the end closest to the door.

There was a text description of this mark that mentioned the hair impression though I'm not sure if it was talking about hair like filaments of the splatter or an impression of hair made in the stain. I don't think it was actual hair left behind.

The night stand lamp is found on the floor between the bed and the nightstand. It was probably knocked off of the nightstand.

My take on the lamps is that they may be unassociated with the crime. The original of the photo of Meredith with the vampire makeup may shed more light on this.

 

[Fuji]

On the part of my quote you deleted. The court equivocates what a witness sees to fact.

This is the part of your quote I declined to include in my response to you:

"When I was young and good health, sometimes I would feel faint when the blood vessels dialitated due to heat and standing still for awhile. A lot of soldiers faint when standing at attention for a long time. My solution wasn't cartwheels, but touching my toes. I would touch my toes when under stress."

"The only difference is, I would have punched a few of the police. My only felony charges came from fighting the police when they got nasty (3 or 4 times)"

I fail to see how this constitutes a scientific explanation as to how you "understand her [Knox] perfectly and know she is telling the truth".

 

[Justinian2]

Do you have any evidence that these convictions are connected in any way to Italy's fascist past?.

This is a quote from the link to Mussolini’s fascist document:

“To achieve this propose it enforces discipline and uses authority, entering into the soul and ruling with undisputed sway.”

Correlate this to the number of times authority has been mentioned to defend the conclusions of the prosecution. If you can’t correlate, tough luck!

The quote is from: http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Germany/mussolini.htm


----------------

Please explain the connection between racism against blacks in the 1950s United States with the murder conviction of an American student in Italy in 2007.

http://www.masters-of-photography.com/images/full/smith/smith_kkk.jpg

----------------

Genetic background? Are you related to Amanda Knox? Genetics is a discipline of biology.

I’m talking about the feeling of being light-headed when standing still under stress and needing to lower the head or lift the feet in order to solve the problem. Amanda and I are, obviously, of primarily white European ancestry. We obviously aren’t African, Asian, South American, or Indian; I think I would know that.

Read books by Spencer Wells.

 

[Katody Matrass]

Hi, Trigood. Looks like you're already flooded with questions about DNA and ToD, as you seem to be knowledgeable in this area. So let me for now address just the misunderstanding we got into:

You're twisting my words. You asked me under what conditions I would say that DNA was sufficient. Then I stated them, and added all the other evidence that proves them guilty.

When I assumed the crime-staging is not a precondition for the DNA to be a sufficient proof you said I'm neglecting it. It's a bit confusing because it doesn't look like DNA validity would depend on it in any way.
Now it's clearer to me, that you mean neglect in general. I'm not going to neglect it, just the questions of DNA deposition are much more interesting and also more important, as you wrote yourself:

However, if you had asked, do I think the DNA evidence is enough to be certain about their guilt, without any absolute contradictions in terms of incontrovertible alibis? Then the answer is "yes."

I'd like to understand the reasoning behind that strong conclusion before delving into further matters

 

[Alt+F4]

This is a quote from the link to Mussolini’s fascist document:

Correlate this to the number of times authority has been mentioned to defend the conclusions of the prosecution. If you can’t correlate, tough luck!

So I'm right, you don't have any evidence connecting these convictions with Italy's fascist past.

http://www.masters-of-photography.com/images/full/smith/smith_kkk.jpg

What the heck does a photograph of a cross burning at a KKK rally have to do with the conviction of Amanda Knox?

I’m talking about the feeling of being light-headed when standing still under stress and needing to lower the head or lift the feet in order to solve the problem. Amanda and I are, obviously, of primarily white European ancestry. We obviously aren’t African, Asian, South American, or Indian; I think I would know that.

Hundreds of million of other people are also from white, European ancestry, so what? You think you "know" Amanda Knox because you're both white? What kind of nonsense is that?

 

[Machiavelli]

Of course, I note in the report you quote that Micheli only mentions the observation of the P.M. and not a direct view of the document. Was this document actually submitted as evidence?

I think you don't understand Italian. The judge mentions his direct observation of telephone records.

i tabulati dei giorni precedenti, come puntualmente osservato dal P.M., documentano al contrario che molte delle comunicazioni relative a quell’apparecchio andavano ad impegnare quella stessa cella,

"The telephone records, as thoroughly highlighted by the PM, on the contrary are documenting how many of the connections on that device were engaging that same cell"

 

[Machiavelli]

the verb "osservare" in Italian, in the context of a dialogue means to "make a comment on", to "draw attention" on something.

 

[Machiavelli]

Machiavelli, how do you explain the incompatibility of the cell tower of the text received by Amanda at 20:18 to Raffaele's flat and the compatibility of her phone calls the next day on the same cell tower which is stated compatible with Raffaele's flat?

I don't know, I've noticed the contradiction during the editing of the translation, I also noticed it had no consequence in the judge's reasonings, so I thought of a mistake. It is clear that the location of the phone at 20:18 was unimportant to the judges and apparently never was object of debate as a meaningful piece of evidence.

However, this has nothing to do with the 22:13 call. We are talking about this, something which was held by the defence as a meaningful datum.

 

[RWVBWL]

facebook.com/pages/Amanda-Knox-and-Raffaele-Sollecito/106344459390034?v=photos#!/photo.php?pid=383948&id=106344459390034

facebook.com/pages/Amanda-Knox-and-Raffaele-Sollecito/106344459390034?v=photos#!/photo.php?pid=383943&id=106344459390034&fbid=158997610791385


In the above photos the first one clearly shows that the jacket was turned inside out. This same jacket had Rudy Guede's DNA on the left cuff an was found on the floor by the wardrobe and Meredith's body. AND unbelievably was left behind and only retrieved and tested on Dec 18Th.

The second photo shows the clothes that were found on the floor with Meredith. In the upper right hand corner is the jacket by the wardrobe, hidden by the comforter in this photo. Down from that by a rug that got pushed across the floor are the shoes - you can see a bit of the red from the Pumas. The shoes were near a lot of blood but only had a bit on them. Also on top of the rug is the beige cloth purse that Meredith used that night. In the middle of the loop of the purse you can see one of the socks. Continuing on clockwise are the brown underwear, bra and jeans. Her long sleeved t-shirt was pushed over her breasts. Everything that Meredith was wearing that night was surrounding her body. Rudy Guede pulled the jacket off of her and inverted the sleeves. The shoes were found in the same area with one still tied. If she had removed the jacket and shoes before the attacked they wouldn't have been found also surrounding her body.

_________________________________________________________________

Greetings Draca,
I have a question for you, or anyone else that might have an answer.
When Meredith Kercher was found, is it true that her left arm was found bent,
and her blood stained hand was still suspended in the air near her face?
The tip of her long thin index finger was soaked in blood as if she had touched her neck.
Reference: Page 48, "Angel Face" author Barbie Nadeau.

If so, that makes me believe that she was moved at some point after her death,
for I do not believe that her hand should have been suspended in the air as she died...

Any idea's?
Thanks, RWVBWL