What is the solution to America's immigration problem?

[JoeTheJuggler]

I think the real problem with immigration is getting people to agree on what the problem is and what a solution consists of.

You said it!

And defining the problem would surely point to a logical solution, but people are proposing solutions at cross purposes.

Frankly, I think the single biggest problem is that people constantly use immigrants as scapegoats for cheap political points. The solution to that problem has nothing to do with immigration, really, but might raise issues of campaign reform. OTOH, tackling the issue of the large numbers of non-criminal illegal aliens in the U.S. *might* also take away the possibility of scapegoating, but I doubt it.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Give amnesty to all illegals already here for violating our immigration law.

Give all other American citizens (under the Equal Protection clause) one free amnesty for any one crime of their choice. Sort of like a get out of jail free card.

Simple!

I should point out that being in the U.S. illegally is not a crime. (You cannot be charged with any crime for being here illegally, though it does make you subject to removal.)

So you're equating apples and oranges.

I think another bit part of the "immigration problem" is misinformation.

Many people wrongly think it's a crime to be here illegally. (I know the words sound oxymoronic, which is why many prefer to refer to them as "undocumented" aliens.)

Many people repeat the claim that the federal government is not enforcing its immigration laws (when what they really mean is that they disapprove of the federal government's enforcement policy).

Back to the issue of defining the problem: if the goal is to increase deportations, then the current federal policy has to be considered a huge success: they're deporting or otherwise removing illegal aliens in record numbers, largely by focusing their attention on criminal illegals (which I believe also tackles the problem of crime associated with illegal aliens--something that deporting non-criminal aliens doesn't do).

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I think those who define the problem as being one of "they're taking our jobs" is just mistaken. Surely the current high unemployment rates are the result of forces that arose in the last several years. I don't think illegal immigration can reasonably account for the change in unemployment rates in the last 10 years or so.

 

[Thunder]

I honestly don't understand why we don't close the borders to all but those seeking asylum, when our national unemployment rate goes over a certain percentage....say 7%.

And then open it back up when unemployment goes back down to say 5%.

Immigration is very good for immigrants. But it should also be good for the USA and American citizens who already live and work here. Flooding a country with immigrants, when we have almost 10% unemployment, makes zero sense.

 

[Tailgater]

In what circumstance would you deny citizenship to a child?

???

 

[Thunder]

In what circumstance would you deny citizenship to a child?

me? I think there should not be automatic citizenship for the children of illegal immigrants.

legal immigrants, yes. but not illegal ones.

I consider it an abuse of the 14th Amendment, to give automatic citizenship to the children of illegals born in the USA, who can then sponsor their parents and other relatives to become legalized in the USA, even though they already broke our laws and came here illegally.

I am the grandchild and great-grandchild of immigrants. Millions of people are waiting their turn, to come to the USA. Its a smack in the face and a spit in the eye of all these people, to let illegal immigrants go to the head of the line. Its just not right or fair.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I honestly don't understand why we don't close the borders to all but those seeking asylum, when our national unemployment rate goes over a certain percentage....say 7%.

And then open it back up when unemployment goes back down to say 5%.

And it sounds like you're operating under the misapprehension that high unemployment is caused by illegal immigration. Since it's not, your idea doesn't make economic sense.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I am the grandchild and great-grandchild of immigrants. Millions of people are waiting their turn, to come to the USA. Its [sic] a smack in the face and a spit in the eye of all these people, to let illegal immigrants go to the head of the line. Its [sic] just not right or fair.

Again, you seem to have some facts wrong.

Most European immigrants came into the country when there was no such a thing a illegal immigration. Also, was it legal or illegal when we conquered some of this very land from Mexico or from the indigenous peoples?

Also, illegal immigrants are not allowed to the head of the line, as you suggest. No one is allowing them to get visas or other documentation, so they are not in fact in the line for legal status at all.

And finally, for many people, the legal channels for immigration are so burdensome as to be flat out prohibitive. I think those policies are what (at least in part) encourage illegal immigration.

 

[Thunder]

And it sounds like you're operating under the misapprehension that high unemployment is caused by illegal immigration.

lolol!!!

then you are clearly "hearing" very very wrong. (how does one hear a written post?)

I do not blaim illegal or legal immigration for unemployment. that would be a stupid thing to suggest.

but, when we have 15 millions Americans out of work, I don't think its such a great idea to add millions more each year, to ADD to this number of folks looking for work.

this is all I am trying to say. why add to the problem? why add to the competition? I think we should try to solve our employment issue first, and then once thats dealt with, allow folks to come in.

there will always be a certain percentage of the American populace that's unemployed. I believe its around 4%. this is a given. most folks understand this, and its no reason to limit immigration.

but of course, I do not want to stop assylum seakers from getting in. that would be unAmerican and cruel.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

lolol!!!

then you are clearly "hearing" very very wrong. (how does one hear a written post?)

Don't be an idiot. I used a perfectly fine standard English idiom.

ETA: Actually, that usage isn't even idiomatic. It's one of the listed dictionary definitions of sound: "18. to give the appearance of being; seem: The report sounds true."

I do not blaim [sic] illegal or legal immigration for unemployment. that would be a stupid thing to suggest.

In that case, it's more stupid to suggest that we shut down the borders based on unemployment rates.

but, when we have 15 millions Americans out of work, I don't think its such a great idea to add millions more each year, to ADD to this number of folks looking for work.

this is all I am trying to say. why add to the problem? why add to the competition? I think we should try to solve our employment issue first, and then once thats dealt with, allow folks to come in.

Ah, so I was right, and you are in fact attributing higher unemployment rates to illegal immigration.

Do you have evidence of such a correlation?

 

[BeAChooser]

I should point out that being in the U.S. illegally is not a crime.

Not necessarily. Perhaps overstaying a visa isn't currently a crime, but under Title 8 Section 1325 (http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/8/12/II/VIII/1325 ) of the U.S. Code, "Improper Entry by Alien,"

Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States
at any time or place other than as designated by immigration
officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration
officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United
States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the
willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first
commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or
imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent
commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or
imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

Obviously, just ordinary common sense tells one that anyone who did do the above broke that law, even if they are now captured well inside US borders. Now that doesn't mean that Holder's DOJ will enforce that law, or that you can't find a friendly leftist judge who says the opposite, but common sense should prevail if we are to remain a nation that respects the law. As for visa violators, I hope that when republicans regain control of the government, one of their first acts will be to make overstaying a visa a federal crime punishable by fine and jail. At least that conviction would then keep them from voting.

 

[Tailgater]

me? I think there should not be automatic citizenship for the children of illegal immigrants.

legal immigrants, yes. but not illegal ones.

I consider it an abuse of the 14th Amendment, to give automatic citizenship to the children of illegals born in the USA, who can then sponsor their parents and other relatives to become legalized in the USA, even though they already broke our laws and came here illegally.

I am the grandchild and great-grandchild of immigrants. Millions of people are waiting their turn, to come to the USA. Its a smack in the face and a spit in the eye of all these people, to let illegal immigrants go to the head of the line. Its just not right or fair.

Yes, we are talking about illegal ones last time I checked. So, is it the sponsoring of the family or the actual citizenship of the child you have a problem with, because you really didn't answer the question asked. If a child is born here and lives here till the age of 18, you want a "review board" to decide if we send that kid packing?

 

[Thunder]

Ah, so I was right, and you are in fact attributing higher unemployment rates to illegal immigration.

err......wrong.

I said it is silly to bring in millions of immigrants when we already have a very high unemployment rate. we should wait till unemployment goes down, to say 6%, before we bring in millions more job seekers.

seems like common sense.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

err......wrong.

I said it is silly to bring in millions of immigrants when we already have a very high unemployment rate. we should wait till unemployment goes down, to say 6%, before we bring in millions more job seekers.

seems like common sense.

Not if there is in fact no causal relationship between illegal immigration and unemployment.

Unless you think there is, your idea makes no sense at all. So if you're not prepared to defend the idea that there is a connection, your idea is nonsensical.

Guess how many people took up the United Farm Workers "Take Our Jobs" challenge? (While I don't know the exact number off the top of my head, I'm sure it wasn't enough to have any measurable effect on U.S. unemployment.)

ETA: I see you might be quibbling over wording. Do you think illegal immigration makes unemployment worse? (That *is* a causal relationship.) If so, let's see your evidence. You would need to start at least to show that there is a correlation between illegal immigration and unemployment.

ETA: Furthermore, the current federal policy balances enforcement against a host of other issues, including international relations. Closing the borders would definitely have negative impact on our relations with Mexico, and would doubtless hurt our economy pretty drastically. You would trade that off based on the unsupported idea that illegal immigration leads to (or exacerbates) higher unemployment rates.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Not necessarily. Perhaps overstaying a visa isn't currently a crime, but under Title 8 Section 1325 (http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/8/12/II/VIII/1325 ) of the U.S. Code, "Improper Entry by Alien,"

Improper entry is not the same as being here illegally. If you don't catch them coming across the border, you can't prove improper entry. They are still subject to removal, but not, just by being here illegally, criminal prosecution.

Again, look at the post I was commenting on. He was equating being here illegally with committing a crime. In fact, since he was suggesting a crime for which you might be jailed that is of your own choice, he could well have been equating it with a felony--even a capital felony! (I realize he was joking, but the joke was based on the misconception that being here illegally is a crime.)

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I honestly don't understand why we don't close the borders to all but those seeking asylum, when our national unemployment rate goes over a certain percentage....say 7%.

Because illegal immigration doesn't cause higher unemployment. (And you seem to be ceding this point without any defense, so why would you think it's a good idea to close the borders when unemployment reaches 7%? Why not suggest we close the borders when the temperature reaches 95°F? Or when the Dow falls below a certain number? Or when the National League loses the All Star Game?)

Also, closing the borders would have serious negative economic impact. For one thing, just achieving 100% closed borders would be tremendously costly. The other is the point I made above--damaging our trade and diplomatic relations with Mexico would also do serious economic harm.

Also, the federal government recognizes cases other than asylum for allowing illegals to stay (or even sometimes get legal status) such as natural disasters and other humanitarian concerns.

 

[eeyore1954]

Because illegal immigration doesn't cause higher unemployment. (And you seem to be ceding this point without any defense, so why would you think it's a good idea to close the borders when unemployment reaches 7%? Why not suggest we close the borders when the temperature reaches 95°F? Or when the Dow falls below a certain number? Or when the National League loses the All Star Game?)

Also, closing the borders would have serious negative economic impact. For one thing, just achieving 100% closed borders would be tremendously costly. The other is the point I made above--damaging our trade and diplomatic relations with Mexico would also do serious economic harm.

Also, the federal government recognizes cases other than asylum for allowing illegals to stay (or even sometimes get legal status) such as natural disasters and other humanitarian concerns.

How can illegal immigration not cause higher unemployment? At any given point in time there are probably several million jobs that are being done by illegal immigrants. If they were not here someone would have to do most of those jobs.

 

[BeAChooser]

If you don't catch them coming across the border, you can't prove improper entry.

That's not true. If they came in legally, there will a record of it. An expired visa. If there is no record of coming in legally, then they clearly broke the law I mentioned.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

That's not true. If they came in legally, there will a record of it. An expired visa. If there is no record of coming in legally, then they clearly broke the law I mentioned.

Our legal system doesn't recognize your guilty-until-proven innocent approach. Lack of evidence of legal entry is not the same thing as evidence of illegal entry.

ICE even distinguishes between criminal and noncriminal illegal alien removals. http://www.ice.gov/doclib/dro/removals2007-2010.pdf

 

[Thunder]

Because illegal immigration doesn't cause higher unemployment.

but adding a million new legal immigrants to a country with a 9.7% unemployment rate, would just mean more folks looking for work.

and I'm confident recent immigrants would work for lower wages than born-Americans or even immigrants who came here decades ago.