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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Originally Posted by New Yorker
Such circumstances in Italy can seriously interfere with the willingness of witnesses to come forward. No one wants to risk prison time simply to be a witness to help the police with something that does not necessarily involve them. Italy needs to change its laws so that witnesses will feel free to come forward to provide testimony about crimes and other wrongs they might know about. "

The statutes of "calunia" amount to a lock-down on dissent from both outside and within the judiciary and police in Italy.

Actually the statute of calunnia is part of a cultural pattern much more harmful to police than to the possible accused "victim" of the calunnia. The statute of calunnia protects the main suspect, which in this case at the time was Patrick Lumumba. It is more a problem for justice and police when nobody comes forward as a witness, which is the typical Italian tendence.
In Italy, nobody is obliged to become a witness, as long as he/she is not questioned by the police. If you have information on a crime and you remain silent in order to avoid becoming a witness, you are in the right by the Italian law, and probably this is most people's choice. Many people won't come to testify as long as they are not sought out by somebody and dragged to the magistrate.
On the other hand, once a person is questioned as a witness, there is no 5th emendament to appeal, and you don't have great means to protect your privacy. Citizens have great rights that protect them from becoming witnesses, but witnesses don't have many rights, and they are often perceived in a negative light by the common culture.


Do you see any connection between what "New Yorker" wrote and the "typical Italian tendency" to not come forward as a witness? How about between what you wrote in your last paragraph and the reluctance of people to come forward as witnesses? Do you think the laws followed the people's tendencies, or the people's tendencies followed the laws?
 
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Originally Posted by RoseMontague
Such circumstances in Italy can seriously interfere with the willingness of witnesses to come forward. No one wants to risk prison time simply to be a witness to help the police with something that does not necessarily involve them. Italy needs to change its laws so that witnesses will feel free to come forward to provide testimony about crimes and other wrongs they might know about. "

The statutes of "calunia" amount to a lock-down on dissent from both outside and within the judiciary and police in Italy.


Actually the statute of calunnia is part of a cultural pattern much more harmful to police than to the possible accused "victim" of the calunnia. The statute of calunnia protects the main suspect, which in this case at the time was Patrick Lumumba. It is more a problem for justice and police when nobody comes forward as a witness, which is the typical Italian tendence.
In Italy, nobody is obliged to become a witness, as long as he/she is not questioned by the police. If you have information on a crime and you remain silent in order to avoid becoming a witness, you are in the right by the Italian law, and probably this is most people's choice. Many people won't come to testify as long as they are not sought out by somebody and dragged to the magistrate.
On the other hand, once a person is questioned as a witness, there is no 5th emendament to appeal, and you don't have great means to protect your privacy. Citizens have great rights that protect them from becoming witnesses, but witnesses don't have many rights, and they are often perceived in a negative light by the common culture.

This was not a quote from me. The quote function here can be a challenge.
 
Sorry, Rose. It was from "New Yorker" at Perugia Shock:

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2010/10/invisible-amanda-knox.html

I have been somewhat disappointed in Frank's last two posts on this case. He seems to be a little pessimistic about things lately. The title of this one, at least the "Joyless" part, is something that I hope is not the case. I hope Amanda is able to find some small degree of joy even in her circumstances.
I have noticed Frank has answered many questions in the comments section recently, much as he did in his earlier blogging on the case. Christiana's questions have gotten his attention and his responses have been interesting.
 
Do you see any connection between what "New Yorker" wrote and the "typical Italian tendency" to not come forward as a witness? How about between what you wrote in your last paragraph and the reluctance of people to come forward as witnesses? Do you think the laws followed the people's tendencies, or the people's tendencies followed the laws?

I take the "typical Italian tendency" to mean if it doesn't affect me it's not my business. I believe that's what three witnesses for the prosecution demonstrated in their reluctance to come forward immediately.

Your last sentence (which I've bolded) is thought provoking and merits discussion.
 
Mimsy were the borogoves

You're saying perhaps. And Raffaele's attorney is not saying. What on earth has that got to do with Ghirga saying the trial was fair? HE COULD HAVE SAID NOTHING. Mind reading is not acceptable.

Capealadin,

From p. 309 of the English translation of the Massei report:

“But the Stardust files remained on Raffaele Sollecito’s computer in a folder shared with the Internet, such that, for these, a ‚last access‛ occurred right on the night of 6-Nov-2007, at 02:47, during the time period in which Raffaele and Amanda were being held in the Questura [Police Headquarters]. The fact that the Encase system registers a "last modified" entry during the night of 6-Nov-2007 for the Stardust files constitutes the confirmation that there has been a loss of data.”

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/410554_knox26.html
Andrea Vogt reported, “Specifically, the computer revealed that the movie "Stardust" had been downloaded, and then a few hours later, at 1 a.m. and 2:47 a.m., someone surfed the Web twice and viewed a story about Kercher's killing on the Italian wire service news agency ANSA.”

She continued, “First, defense lawyers claim that the computer interactions while he was at police headquarters may have canceled out important data showing the last known access to files that could have proven he was on his computer the night of the killing. And second, it further damages the credibility of investigators, who have been under increasing scrutiny since the defense began presenting its case.”

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/09/computer-places-knox-and-sollecito-at.html
Frank reported, “The last access to Stardust is November 6. Raffaele and Amanda were in jail, so the police, while working at the computer, opened Stardust (everyone needs a break).

I have read one report of the interrogation on night of November 5th in which Raffaele gave the police the key to his apartment, saying that they could check his computer if they did not believe him. I recall reading (at a site whose name we do not utter here) a speculation to the effect that perhaps Raffaele Sollecito’s father went over to his house that morning to read up on the murder. Given the younger Mr. Sollecito’s claim that he was not allowed to call his father, and given that I have never heard the police say that they happened to run into the elder Mr. Sollecito at the flat, I can perhaps cautiously advance the opinion that such speculation is unlikely. Moreover, one has to wonder whether the elder Mr. Sollecito had a working computer in his home. If so, it makes the scenario of his coming to the flat even less likely.

My hypothesis is that Mr. Ghirga and Mr. Maori know that they face retaliation from ILE if they speak too directly. My evidence is that Mr. Maori did not name the police, even though the police are the only people whose presence in the flat makes any sense. Given the fact that Mr. Mignini sued Mr. Maori, I do not blame him for being cautious. I would also direct your attention to my two comments upthread concerning reporters who fear retaliation and those who have also been sued by Mr. Mignini. My hypothesis could be falsified if a reporter spoke with them as anonymous sources and they still failed to mention various problems and irregularities in this trial. These include but are not limited to failure to turn over forensic files, failure to obtain a change in venue, failure to test the pillowcase stain, harming the hard drives, holding Mr. Sollecito for almost a year prior to a formal charge without sufficient cause, and so forth. I would also remind you that Ms. Bongiorno criticized the prosecution for its failure to turn over forensic data in the summer of 2009, specifically citing the right to a fair trial.

Moby Dick and slithy references to Alice in Wonderland are fine, but let us give Churchill his due.
 
I have been somewhat disappointed in Frank's last two posts on this case. He seems to be a little pessimistic about things lately. The title of this one, at least the "Joyless" part, is something that I hope is not the case. I hope Amanda is able to find some small degree of joy even in her circumstances.
I have noticed Frank has answered many questions in the comments section recently, much as he did in his earlier blogging on the case. Christiana's questions have gotten his attention and his responses have been interesting.


I think it's probably getting harder and harder for Amanda and Raffaele to stave off anger.
 
I take the "typical Italian tendency" to mean if it doesn't affect me it's not my business. I believe that's what three witnesses for the prosecution demonstrated in their reluctance to come forward immediately.

Your last sentence (which I've bolded) is thought provoking and merits discussion.


Thanks, christiana. I had a sociology professor who said, "People don't change laws, laws change people."

I can't get on board with Michiavelli's comment: "Actually the statute of calunnia is part of a cultural pattern much more harmful to police than to the possible accused "victim" of the calunnia." Sounds like yet another version of "pity the poor police."
 
Lewis Padgett short story

OMG Chris, a literary reference?

Love that word, btw.

Hi Rose,

It is a great word, but I should give a cite, before someone calls me on it. Here is a portion of the poem where it originated.

`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

Lewis Carroll, Jabberwocky, Through the Looking-Glass and What Alice Found There, 1872

There is also a science fiction short story "Mimsy Were the Borogoves" from 1943 that talks about children making certain rocks "slithy."
 
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I think it's probably getting harder and harder for Amanda and Raffaele to stave off anger.

I don't know Mary, the look I have seen in the eyes of Amanda doesn't look like anger. In the few photos seen of her since the verdict she seems old and not a physical old. I think Frank's description of "joyless" is accurate.
 
Marriott activities (2)

Since my admittedly lengthy (but hopefully not needlessly so) response to halides brought no replies (nada, zero, zilch) even from neither he who posed the question nor from L.J who 'prompted the posing' with an earlier contribution.
My first reaction is to assume two things:

1) The post was deemed not worthy of response from any 'greater than superficially case informed' distinguished posters here.

PS:
Absolutely no 'snideness or snarkiness' intended since the terminiology is not mine, but directed to me as a correction from a *very* senior poster with the statement that *all* here were so endowed.
I cite it only as support for my bewilderment and very sincerely not to insult or offend any other.

2) My opinions, beliefs, and supporting materiel (although seemingly of sufficient 'contrast' to so many widely held beliefs here) were unassailable and accordingly accepted without demur by all here.
(au courant of greater than superficial endowments as above)

My personal self examination and diligent periodically conducted evaluation contains enough sufficient self esteem to deem (1) unacceptable

The same above factors concerning esteem, moderated by my early training about the virtue of humility make me hesitate to accept (2).

But in the (unusual to me), absence of usual fervent rebuttals of people of persuasions favoring innocence (Politically Correct enough I arrogate?) I suppose (2) has to be more closely aligned with accuracy, and thus accordingly so conclude.

PS:
I have deliberately used a few of my "favorite 'marmalade sized' words" today in no way as an attempt to elevate self esteem as discussed above and thus not deficient nor necessitating self praise .

But rather an ancillary effect of this post to as courteously as possible counter the *personally perceived* slur from Poster Best who yesterday made lengthy aspersions about English being my 'second language' .
 
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Hi Rose,

It is a great word, but I should give a cite, before someone calls me on it. Here is a portion of the poem where it originated.

`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

Lewis Carroll, Jabberwocky, Through the Looking-Glass and What Alice Found There, 1872

There is also a science fiction short story "Mimsy Were the Borogoves" from 1943 that talks about children making certain rocks "slithy."

Chris and Rose, you two remind me of the nightmares I had in high school having to read fantasy literature when all I wanted to do was read things of a factual nature. I am afraid there will be a Q&A session of which I will fail miserably.
 
Capealadin,

From p. 309 of the English translation of the Massei report:

“But the Stardust files remained on Raffaele Sollecito’s computer in a folder shared with the Internet, such that, for these, a ‚last access‛ occurred right on the night of 6-Nov-2007, at 02:47, during the time period in which Raffaele and Amanda were being held in the Questura [Police Headquarters]. The fact that the Encase system registers a "last modified" entry during the night of 6-Nov-2007 for the Stardust files constitutes the confirmation that there has been a loss of data.”

...

Last modified and last accessed do not need human interaction to be set by the operating/file system.
 
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If you are accusing me of choosing not to search for or read relevant literature, then I think you owe it to us all and to yourself to back that accusation up or retract it and apologise.

* * *

If Bacci thought that possible 8pm crumble somehow delayed the transition of the pizza to the duodenum to the extent where t(lag) could plausibly equal five hours, once again he was simply wrong.

* * *

As I said, while we in some cases lack information they had, in some very important cases they lacked information we have. It more than balances out in our favour.

_______________

I wasn't being facetious Kevin when I asked about ROLAIDS, but perhaps naive. If Meredith chewed a couple tablets of antacids after dinner---NOT an uncommon action--- could that have substantially retarded her digestion timing? What research did you find on this subject.

///
 
I think it's probably getting harder and harder for Amanda and Raffaele to stave off anger.

Good Morning to you, Mary

Probably stimulated and arising from our individual 'preconceived convictions'.
Having noted Frank's 'pessimism', I attributed it to him as a *very avid* follower of the case to be 'creeping realism' possibly prompted by 'difficult to continue to contain doubt' about certainty of innocence as well as guilt.

Please keep reading, my friend;
this is my personal evaluation based on *my* reading of nearly every word Mr Sfarzo, has ever written, and having given his oft expressed *opinions* their due weight, despite strong personal differences with many (most) of my own.

Far be it from me to 'put words in the mouth' of Mr Sfarzo who has expended so many words on so many places about what he thinks of the case. (end disclaimer)

OK, now lets discuss further that *great* injection of self deprecating hilarious, witty retort you once gave about your true gender:D
 
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I have deliberately used a few of my "favorite 'marmalade sized' words" today in no way as an attempt to elevate self esteem as discussed above and thus not deficient nor necessitating self praise .

But rather an ancillary effect of this post to as courteously as possible counter the *personally perceived* slur from Poster Best who yesterday made lengthy aspersions about English being my 'second language' .

I thought I recognised your writing style!!

You are Emmanuel M. Tambo, the senior legal official at SA Gold and Diamond Mine and Processing in Krugersdorp, aren't you? Remember, you wrote to me a while ago asking me to assist you in extracting a large amount of money from Nigeria?

How strange to meet up with you again here, of all places!
 
On PR

Pilot padron,

I was not sure whether or not you had claimed that bloggers were being paid. I am glad that you do not seem to think so, but my reason for commenting was also to clarify that point for everyone else.

I cannot entirely agree with you about the overall media coverage in the United States. Newsweek used Barbie Nadeau for its coverage. Both Ann Coulter and Wendy Murphy wrote essays that leaned toward guilt (both also had factual errors). My point is that there was not a uniformity of coverage in the U.S. Moreover, PR is not a dirty word in a case like this where a defendant is subjected to a great deal of pretrial publicity. I would have hired a PR firm if I had been in the same position. It all depends on the specifics of what the PR firm is doing.

Your opinion on the CBS reporting would be a good starting point for further discussion if you gave some specifics of examples of biased or factually incorrect reporting.
 
I thought I recognised your writing style!!

You are Emmanuel M. Tambo, the senior legal official at SA Gold and Diamond Mine and Processing in Krugersdorp, aren't you? Remember, you wrote to me a while ago asking me to assist you in extracting a large amount of money from Nigeria?

How strange to meet up with you again here, of all places!

Your wit is enjoyed and appreciated in this message so much more so than in previous cited.

Sincere Best regards to you, Matthew

(Life is too short to incur antagonism and make enemies of anyone over differences in opinions here that in the seashore of life is little more than a solitary sand particle)
 
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I think you owe an apology to Meredith and to yourself for having denied an offence to her name by denying the obvious Raffaele's lie. In regard to literature search I am not accusing you of being disingenuous, I am accusing you of a lack of intellectual humilty. I think you are in good faith in your choice among what to research, I don't think there is a conscious aim to deceive in your assessmnt on what topic to research among the pertaining scientific literature, nonetheless your choice on what to read and search and what to consider pertinent, is a choice. Not all scientists would agree with your choice.

Yes - say sorry to Meredith immediately, Kevin!

Which scientists and/or medics assert that a small-to-moderate sized meal whose ingestion began around 6.30pm would still remain wholly within the stomach of a healthy adult at 11.30pm? PLEASE tell us all which scientists/medics would make this assertion!
 
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