Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Chris_Halkides]

Committee to Protect Journalists

And by the way, Halides, Ghirga is in a perfect position to talk about the Court system, as he knows how it works. Can you cite where in Italy, a lawyer would be in jeapordy if he did so? Thanks.........

capealadin,

My comments about lawyers who are part of the system are my opinions only. However, I suspect that the Committee to Protect Journalists' discussion of Italian journalists was in the back of my mind when I wrote it. Their “research and interviews with Italian journalists, some of whom asked to remain anonymous for fear of official retaliation, show a pattern of official harassment against Spezi in connection with his investigation of the ‘Monster of Florence’ case.”

“Mignini filed a request with the preliminary investigation judge of Perugia, Marina De Robertis, to invoke a rarely used law under Italy's criminal code to deny Spezi access to a lawyer for five days, Spezi's lawyer Alessandro Traversi told CPJ. The law is typically applied to the most dangerous criminals, yet Judge De Robertis authorized the measure, and for five days Spezi was denied legal counsel and held incommunicado.”

emphasis added

 

[RWVBWL]

Why is a fabrication more believable if offered immediately than if offered after several months?
She already knew she was guilty WHILE she was being questioned by the police; she was clever enough to come up with "the police hit me" to explain why she accused Patrick of assault and murder, and why she claimed to have been present at the murder, covering her ears from Meredith's screams..(Now how did she know there were screams?)

She acted coldly and quickly; "They hit me" lets her squirm free.
Or so she thought.

_________________________________________________________________

Hi loverofzion,
Since I believe that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are completely innocent of any involvement in the brutal murder of Meredith Kercher,
I too wonder how Miss Knox "heard Meredith's screams", as you write of?

Maybe it was the same way that Mr. Lumumba all of a sudden "remembered"?

After being "driven to Perugia's police station, where he was subjected to a ten-hour interrogation.
"I was questioned by five men and women, some of whom punched and kicked me," he claims. "They forced me on my knees against the wall and said I should be in America where I would be given the electric chair for my crime. All they kept saying was, 'You did it, you did it.'
"I didn't know what I'd 'done'. I was scared and humiliated. Then, after a couple of hours one of them suggested they show me a picture of 'the dead girl' to get me to confess.
"It might sound naive, but it was only then that I made the connection between Meredith's death and my arrest. Stunned, I said, 'You think I killed Meredith?'
"They said, 'Oh, so now you've remembered' and told me that if I confessed I'd only get half the 30-year sentence."
ETC...
(highlights mine)

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ls-framed-Merediths-murder.html#ixzz11Q0tr0gh

I wonder a few things:
Was Mr. Lumumba's interview audio or video recorded, or was he too simply a "witness" at that point, so this did not need to be done?

Secondly, I would bet that Mr. Lumumba's interview of 10 hours went a lot smoother than Miss Knox's interview did, for he must have been fluent in Italian.
So I bet it wasn't an "interpreter" present, like in Miss Knox's case, that might have "helped him to remember"...

But what I really wonder of is this:
Did Mr. Lumumba get served chamomile tea and pastries afterwards also?
Or was that just Miss Knox's reward for helping the police find the owner of the found "black hair that was consistant with someone of African descent"
that Barbie Nadeau writes of on page 105 of "Angel Face"?
Hmmm...
RWVBWL

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Can you clarify which drug or drugs you mean?

Halides: Cannabis IS a drug. People are jailed for it. What can you mean? And where, pray tell, did I mention hard drugs? Also, could you please cite how you know Ms. Popvic's credentials, as to how she knew that Amanda was acting normal? How long had she known Amanda? How many times had they met? Under what other circumstances? If you want to call it a meeting...talking to someone through a door. Does she know if Amanda's eyes were bloodshot? Thanks so much...

capealadin,

I am still not sure what you mean by drugs. Are you claiming that Amanda used hard drugs (by which I mean cocaine, heroin, etc.) or not? If you are, what is your source of information?

As for cannabis, I believe that it is undisputed that all four flatmates used it. Even Massei implied that he had tried it when he was young. This was during Laura's testimony, IIRC. Its more general acceptance is why people often distinguish between cannabis and other drugs, I believe.

With respect to the evening of November 1st, until roughly 8:40 Amanda thought that she would have to work, and Raffaele thought that he would have to drive Ms. Popovic to retrieve something from a train or bus station, IIRC. Therefore, I would not be surprised if at that point in the evening they had used at most a small quantity of cannabis.

 

[colonelhall]

London John: "How much do you think that Marriott and his company (Gogerty Marriott) are getting paid by the Knox family to provide these extensive PR services? And where do you think that the money is coming from to pay them?"

No idea! But why do you ask? The fact is that they are employed and they are doing their job.

 

[el buscador]

_________________________________________________________________

Hi loverofzion,
Since I believe that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are completely innocent of any involvement in the brutal murder of Meredith Kercher,
I too wonder how Miss Knox "heard Meredith's screams", as you write of?

Maybe it was the same way that Mr. Lumumba all of a sudden "remembered"?

After being "driven to Perugia's police station, where he was subjected to a ten-hour interrogation.
"I was questioned by five men and women, some of whom punched and kicked me," he claims. "They forced me on my knees against the wall and said I should be in America where I would be given the electric chair for my crime. All they kept saying was, 'You did it, you did it.'
"I didn't know what I'd 'done'. I was scared and humiliated. Then, after a couple of hours one of them suggested they show me a picture of 'the dead girl' to get me to confess.
"It might sound naive, but it was only then that I made the connection between Meredith's death and my arrest. Stunned, I said, 'You think I killed Meredith?'
"They said, 'Oh, so now you've remembered' and told me that if I confessed I'd only get half the 30-year sentence."
ETC...
(highlights mine)

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ls-framed-Merediths-murder.html#ixzz11Q0tr0gh

I wonder a few things:
Was Mr. Lumumba's interview audio or video recorded, or was he too simply a "witness" at that point, so this did not need to be done?

Secondly, I would bet that Mr. Lumumba's interview of 10 hours went a lot smoother than Miss Knox's interview did, for he must have been fluent in Italian.
So I bet it wasn't an "interpreter" present, like in Miss Knox's case, that might have "helped him to remember"...

But what I really wonder of is this:
Did Mr. Lumumba get served chamomile tea and pastries afterwards also?
Or was that just Miss Knox's reward for helping the police find the owner of the found "black hair that was consistant with someone of African descent"
that Barbie Nadeau writes of on page 105 of "Angel Face"?
Hmmm...
RWVBWL

Good question about Patrick's interrogation tapes, or lack there of. Was he arrested when the police came calling or just asked to come down the station to explain a few things? What exactly was his status at the time.

And I have always thought that the "black hair" found at the scene was the reason the police kept pushing Amanda to name someone. They had Raffaele with his shoes that almost matched and the folding knife that didn't match but could have. Why keep pushing for a name? Like you, I think it was that hair.

 

[LondonJohn]

London John: "How much do you think that Marriott and his company (Gogerty Marriott) are getting paid by the Knox family to provide these extensive PR services? And where do you think that the money is coming from to pay them?"

No idea! But why do you ask? The fact is that they are employed and they are doing their job.

Are you sure they're being paid anywhere near a commercial rate? And exactly what kind of PR work is it that you are imagining that they are doing on behalf of Amanda Knox and her family?

 

[LondonJohn]

Good question about Patrick's interrogation tapes, or lack there of. Was he arrested when the police came calling or just asked to come down the station to explain a few things? What exactly was his status at the time.

And I have always thought that the "black hair" found at the scene was the reason the police kept pushing Amanda to name someone. They had Raffaele with his shoes that almost matched and the folding knife that didn't match but could have. Why keep pushing for a name? Like you, I think it was that hair.

Lumumba was arrested in an aggressive dawn raid by dozens of police - some of them armed - in front of his wife and young child.

 

[LondonJohn]

Ths is one more very interesting point. Amanda is not telling the truth whan she says she was at Raffaele's apartment. She was not at her home neither. She was in the city centre near the central Piazza, in an area south of the tower in via del'Aquila.
But, as you observe, she was not walking to work, as the Court might have guessed, because her shift begins at 10:00.
So she was hanging around elsewhere doing something else.

Didn't Sollecito himself recall that he and Knox had gone shopping for ingredients for their dinner between around 8.00-8.30pm? Would that not tally with Lumumba's incoming text message, which Knox might not have actually noticed and read until she was back in Sollecito's apartment at around 8.40pm?

 

[RWVBWL]

Ths is one more very interesting point. Amanda is not telling the truth whan she says she was at Raffaele's apartment. She was not at her home neither. She was in the city centre near the central Piazza, in an area south of the tower in via del'Aquila.
But, as you observe, she was not walking to work, as the Court might have guessed, because her shift begins at 10:00.
So she was hanging around elsewhere doing something else.

Hi there Machiavelli,
With regards to your posting, I believe that you are wrong.
But, ya know, feel free to correct me if you feel that I don't know what I am writing about...

From what I have read in "Murder in Italy" by author Candace Dempsey, Amanda read that text message message sent by her old boss, Patrick Diya Lumumba at 8:18 pm, a short while later around 8:35 pm and then replied to it sayin' "Certo ci vediamo piu tardi buona serata!"

"OK, see you later, good evening!"

Quoting "Murder in Italy" on page 47:
"I didn't really want to go to work that night. I preferred to stay home with Raffaele," she said later.
I was very pleased. In fact, I actually jumped on Raffaele and went
'Woo! I don't have to go to work.'"

A few minutes later, Amanda Knox answered Jovanna Popovic's ringing doorbell at Raffaele Sollecito's apartment and told Amandaa that that Raffaele, (whom from what I gather was on the cellphone with his Father), did not need to help her by driving her to the bus station at midnight to pick up a suitcase that her Mother was sending to her by bus. It seems the suitcase did not ever make it to the bus station. Amanda even invited her in, but she said no thanks, she needed to get home.
Interestingly, Jovanna Popovic later said the Misss Knox did not act strangely and that she was always cheerful and outgoing.

Though our opinions differ Machiavelli, I find it very hard for me to believe that this gal, with a free night of of work,
and in the company her new boyfriend of only a week, (who now did not have to go help a friend at midnight),
then went over to her own pad and brutally stabbed her housemate to death...
Hmmm...
RWVBWL

PS-
Thanks LondonJohn for mentioning this:
"Didn't Sollecito himself recall that he and Knox had gone shopping for ingredients for their dinner between around 8.00-8.30pm?"
Take it easy,
RW

 

[colonelhall]

Are you sure they're being paid anywhere near a commercial rate?

I've no idea. Are you suggesting they are working pro bono? If so they must be terribly committed and throwing all their resources into the case

"And exactly what kind of PR work is it that you are imagining that they are doing on behalf of Amanda Knox and her family?"

Are you suggesting that I am imagining things? What kind of work do you imagine they are doing? Are you suggesting that they are not working for the family?

 

[el buscador]

Lumumba was arrested in an aggressive dawn raid by dozens of police - some of them armed - in front of his wife and young child.

I know, LJ. Was just wondering why no tapes, then? Or are there some? If he was a suspect was he not, according to Italian law (from what I've understood from reading other posts), supposed to have been assigned a lawyer? Weren't his interrogations required to have been tapped?

 

[LondonJohn]

Are you sure they're being paid anywhere near a commercial rate?

I've no idea. Are you suggesting they are working pro bono? If so they must be terribly committed and throwing all their resources into the case

I don't know how much they are getting paid. I strongly suspect that it's a million miles away from the fantastical $500k bandied about.

What's your evidence that they are "terribly committed" and "throwing all their resource into this case"? How much work do you think that Gogerty Marriott is doing on the Knox account? Do you imagine that David Marriott is devoting a large part of his professional time to the case, and perhaps also assigning a couple of junior members of his staff full-time?

"And exactly what kind of PR work is it that you are imagining that they are doing on behalf of Amanda Knox and her family?"

Are you suggesting that I am imagining things? What kind of work do you imagine they are doing? Are you suggesting that they are not working for the family?

I'm suggesting that they are self-evidently helping arrange media appearances for the Knox family, and very possibly giving general PR advice to them as well. I'm suggesting that they are not setting up advocacy groups, or paying for bloggers, or lobbying politicians, or planting media stories. Would you agree or disagree with my assessment of the parameters of Gogerty Marriott's work in relation to Amanda Knox?

 

[LondonJohn]

I know, LJ. Was just wondering why no tapes, then? Or are there some? If he was a suspect was he not, according to Italian law (from what I've understood from reading other posts), supposed to have been assigned a lawyer? Weren't his interrogations required to have been tapped?

I strongly suspect that Lumumba's interrogations were at least audio taped (as you say, this is required for anyone who's arrested and made a suspect, as Lumumba was). I also suspect that those tapes might have got "mislaid" somewhere, in case Lumumba ever decided to challenge his treatment while in custody........

 

[colonelhall]

London John: "I'm suggesting that they are not setting up advocacy groups, or paying for bloggers, or lobbying politicians, or planting media stories."

O.K. If you want to believe this, go ahead!

 

[Chris C]

While reviewing some of the documentation is this case I am struck by a number of inconsistencies regarding the evening of November 1, 2007. Specifically concerning Patrick Lumumba’s text message to Amanda Knox.








I have several questions regarding the above referenced material:

1. Why does Amanda maintain she was at Raffaele’s apartment when her cell phone records indicate she was not?
2. The Massei Report implies Amanda may have been on her way to work when she received the text message from Patrick. Why would she be on her way to work at 8:18 pm when her shift doesn’t start until 10:00 pm?
3. Why would Patrick text Amanda at 8:18 pm to tell her not to come in for work if he didn’t even open the bar until 9:00 pm?

Why are you still stuck on the text message from patrick?
How many minutes after the text message is Knox seen by a witness other than Sollecito, at Sollecito's place.
Knox couldn't have had anything to do with Meredith at the time of the message from Patrick because Meredith is with her friends.

 

[act1roson]

The prosecution did prove that her alibi regarding her location when she received the text message from Patrick was invalid. This goes directly to her credibility. Keep in mind we only have four pieces of evidence for her whereabouts the night of the murder: (1) Jovana Popvic stops by RS's apartment at approximently 5:45 pm; (2) the text from Patrick at 8:18 pm (away from RS’s apt); (3) her return text to Patrick at 8:36 (at RS’s apt.); and (4) Jovana Popovic stopping by RS’s apartment at approximately 8:40 pm. The next bit of evidence for Amanda’s whereabouts is the following afternoon phone call to Meredith’s cell phone at 12:07 pm from RS’s apartment.

We know she wasn’t where she said she was when she received Patrick’s text. So what was she doing? It seems strange that she would be on her way to work two hours before her scheduled start time.

Patrick texted Amanda at 8:18 pm not to come into work because, according to Amanda, “there wasn't anyone at Le Chic so I didn't need to go to work.” According to Patrick he didn’t arrive at the pub until 9:00 pm. I don’t know how this fits in the grand scheme of things, but it is odd.

The following is from Perugia Shock; if you believe him, it shows that the cell records can't be trusted for determining the exact location of a person when a call is received.

...."Patrick's lawyer is very precise, and he recalled on what the accusation to Amanda lies. She lied. She said that she received Patrick's SMS at Raffaele's place. And she instead the cell network says that she was by piazza Grimana. She's been caught lying.........Here we have to recall that this was exactly the proof against Patrick. He said that he was at the pub. But the cell network was placing him by piazza Grimana. the cell network is a machine and, like all machines,is stupid. At the end the understood that the machine was wrong and Patrick was telling the truth.........But they alread forgot. Here we are again. The same machine, the same mistake. The same people who made the mistake of believing that machine are doing it again. The ones who managed to save themselves from that mistake are trying to convict someone else with exactly the same wrong information."

 

[christianahannah]

Didn't Sollecito himself recall that he and Knox had gone shopping for ingredients for their dinner between around 8.00-8.30pm? Would that not tally with Lumumba's incoming text message, which Knox might not have actually noticed and read until she was back in Sollecito's apartment at around 8.40pm?

The reference you state (out between 8-8:30) is in Raffaele's diary dated November 7. Amanda's November 4 email states they did not go out (however, this could mean not going out to socialize).

When they were questioned at the Questra (both prior to, and during, November 5-6) did they give the same answers as to their activities during the late afternoon/evening of November 1?

 

[Jungle Jim]

So, she was in another part of town when message came in, or did her phone just happen to ping there like Patrick's phone did in place where he wasn't?

But she was at Raffaele's when she read the message.

I am not an expert on cell phones nor their interaction with cell phone towers. However, a ping would seem to be different that the actual transmission of an SMS message which, according to the Massei report, occurred while Amanda's cell phone was somewhere in the center of town.

It is Amanda's contention she was at Raeffele's apartment when she read the message. As a point of fact we don't know where she was when she read the message. We do know she answered the message at 8:36 pm from RS's apartment.

 

[Antony]

(msg #8684, p218)
Antony, it's folks like you that keep me coming back to this site. Please keep it up.

I do keep up, thank you. I'm just not particularly interested in keeping up with the pro-guilt ideology and mythology.

First you ask "What P.R. firm?"

When you are told, you reply "So the "Knox P.R. machine" consists of a single hired consultant?"

No, not a single hired consultant. A company. A well oiled machine. A group of highly paid professionals skilled in keeping their clients in the public eye.

The source you quoted stated "Knox's family engaged the services of David Marriott, of Gogerty Stark Marriott". Not, note, "engaged the services of Gogerty Stark Marriott".

So, in your imagination, the name "David Marriott" becomes "a team of highly-paid professionals".

A team of people who could blog 24 hours, spreading the fabrications that sow the seeds of doubt in people's minds.

The first seed of doubt for me was the fact that Amanda and Raffaele were at the scene when the crime was discovered. Not "sown by 24-hour bloggers" but just by reading reports and comment on the case. It soon became clear that the so-called evidence in this case was exceedingly sparse and tenuous, and that the pro-guilt faction were more interested in malicious gossip than in the details of the crime.

More seeds of doubt arise from the histrionic flights of fancy propagated by people like you. Do you seriously imagine that an ordinary Seattle family can employ "a team of people who could blog 24 hours"? The Knox family have been bankrupted by this case; not by paying for a "P.R. machine" but by legal fees and travel costs. As I said in my earlier posting, they were also forced to hire a P.R. consultant, but only because of the malicious media campaign against Amanda.

As for the other stuff about verdicts just being opinions .... well, as I said "keep it up!"

In what way is a court verdict not an opinion?

 

[Mary_H]

FYI

capealadin and colonelhall, if you click on "quote" in the lower right of the comment you want to respond to, the other poster's comment will appear in your new post.