Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Malkmus]

Except that roughly 7 pages of transcripts were left out of the middle of those statements. That's probably as close as we can get at this time.

The knife part of the conversation is started on page 6. The "I can't lie" statement was made on page 8. So the important part of the transcript lies in having pages 6, 7, and 8. However, for the purpose of this debate, I think it's baseless to assume she was admitting any sort of guilt in the conversation, so that part at least has been solved.

 

[Malkmus]

The real question you need to ask yourself is whats the Invention the police are doing? What are they inventing? Is she referring to being present when the police are inventing something?

Chris, from the trial:

CDV: When you said "I was there", what did you mean?

AK: Raffaele's apartment.

CDV: Which was the one you meant when you talked about the knife.

AK: Certainly.

 

[Mary_H]

Wow, and the prosecution presented this in court?
I mean if I'm the prosecution that would be a reason to kill someone. Much better than Knox was stoned on the sofa with Raff and suddenly decided to help guede rape and kill Meredith.

Chris, although capealadin has not supplied a citation, she is referring to an interview that appeared in the Daily Mail on November 25, 2007:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Lumumba-reveals-framed-Merediths-murder.html

For the first couple of years after the arrest, much of the guilters' "case" against Amanda and Raffaele rested on this interview. They tried to use it to establish jealousy as the motive for Amanda having committed the murder. (You know how scarce waitressing jobs for college girls are.)

However, the interview is either mostly or completely false. None of the information from the article was presented in court. This is the same interview in which Patrick allegedly accused the police of brutality during his arrest. Apparently he has gone on record as denying at least that part of the interview.

As has been pointed out several times here and on other threads, there is no evidence Patrick intended to fire Amanda or hire Meredith. Amanda and Patrick were still conversing on friendly terms as late as November 5th.

Patrick remained under investigation for several weeks after his release from prison on November 20th. He also had legal counsel and was pursuing recourse for what had happened to him. The chances that he sat down for a long interview with a British tabloid reporter three or four days after his release are slim.

 

[Chris C]

There are just so many misstatements of the truth in your paragraph above that I cannot even begin to take them apart one by one.
Suffice to say I disagree with your analysis of police conduct; I disagree that the pair were innocent and I disagree that the pair were convicted based on a conspiracy by the police, the court, the prosecutors, the jurors, AND the press.

How many people have pulled out of that slander suit so far, the one which she accused police of slapping the back of her head?

 

[Amazer]

How many people have pulled out of that slander suit so far, then one which she accused police of slapping the back of her head?

How does it matter? You don't know why those people dropped out.

 

[Chris C]

How does it matter? You don't know why those people dropped out.

Your right I dont know why they dropped out. Of course, dropping out of a lawsuit that your suppose to be part of because you are accused of hitting a suspect, is just like doing cart wheels in a police station. Raises an eyebrow.

 

[Amazer]

Your right I dont know why they dropped out. Of course, dropping out of a lawsuit that your suppose to be part of because you are accused of hitting a suspect, is just like doing cart wheels in a police station. Raises an eyebrow.

I'm sure it does for some people. Personally I can think of a number of good reasons why people dropped out of the law suit and really have a hard time imaging what would bring someone to do cartwheels while in a police station.

 

[Antony]

(msg #8459)
There are just so many misstatements of the truth in your paragraph above that I cannot even begin to take them apart one by one.
Suffice to say I disagree with your analysis of police conduct; I disagree that the pair were innocent and I disagree that the pair were convicted based on a conspiracy by the police, the court, the prosecutors, the jurors, AND the press.

Your response would be a little more convincing if you were to cite some specifics as to what these alleged "misstatements" are. I'm afraid that you have a poor record on citing specifics, however.

As for "conspiracy", that's not a word that I have ever used in this case. What I am saying is that each of the groups of people involved are following their own agenda, sometimes overlapping. So the fact that the police are effectively working for the prosecution is one of the flaws of the system, not in itself a "conspiracy".

The media have an agenda aimed at selling newspapers and upping their viewing ratings. Regrettably, one of the ways of doing this is by sensationalist reporting, and stoking public rage against someone accused of a crime fits very well with that. The police and prosecution knew this, and in this case made use of a series of leaks of distorted details in order to promote perceptions of the case that would contribute to convictions. So, not a "conspiracy" here, but definitely a symbiosis.

The jurors didn't need to be in any "conspiracy" of course. All they are doing is responding to the atmosphere surrounding the trial, in which the facts were less important than the popular perceptions of the defendants.

 

[Antony]

(msg #8463)
I've looked at the evidence and am sure Amanda is innocent.

Why then, is she in jail?

I believe there is a parallel with her treatment and the way a black man would have been treated in a murder trial in the deep South during the 1950's.

Or a Muslim who believes in Jihad.

Or Heretics during the Inquisition.

Or Slaves of any era.

Or Witches in Salem during the 1600's.

The Italian newspapers fanned the fire and anti American bias with stories of the evil American drug use, evil American Sex and non-orthodox religion.

I no longer think the facts of the case are relevant. The only relevant facts relate to bias against AK and RS.

Perhaps we should start another thread on facts relating to discrimination and anti-Americanism. 911 taught us that anti-Americanism is out there. Maybe it is important to discuss.

I believe Amanda has a powerful appeal and I hope it wins because anti-Americanism is all that is left to discuss if the appeal fails.

You've done well. I'm convinced. I've just assembled all of the facts of this case for a few pages on a police brutality site. The appeal papers really convinced me. I've been close to the facts today and I see no alternative to bias, discrimination and anti-Americanism.

Justinian, please keep "anti-Americanism" out of it. Amanda Knox isn't "America". She is just one person among thousands of people who suffer injustices of this kind all over the world.

Amanda was an arbitrary victim of police injustice just as Meredith was an arbitrary victim of Guede's greed and lust. Had Amanda been the one who came home when he was sitting on the toilet in the cottage, and had Meredith been first on the scene the following morning, then Amanda would be dead and Meredith would be in prison.

In any case, neither Raffaele nor Patrick Lumumba are connected with the US, and both of them suffered the same injustice as Amanda (in Patrick's case, it was only by chance that he was was able to prove his innocence).

Nothing can be gained by bringing national loyalties into the discussion. In any case, it doesn't cut any ice with the many US-based members of the guilter faction.

 

[Chris C]

Chris, although capealadin has not supplied a citation, she is referring to an interview that appeared in the Daily Mail on November 25, 2007:

Yeah I was being sarcastic. Sometimes sarcasm doesn't post well.

http://www.popsci.com.au/2010/05/finally-a-way-to-detect-sarcasm-in-an-email/

 

[Chris_Halkides]

can you be more specific?

And as I have previously stated, Halides, Patrick Lumumba gave interviews, stating that he had fired Amanda, and had hired Meredith. He had fired her from the bar job, and given her a lesser job, of handing out fliers. I see no reason to disbelieve him, and he has never denied firing/demoting her.

Please cite the interviews you mean. We have already established that the November 25th article in The Mirror contradicted itself and had claims that Patrick disavowed. Any luck on the trial testimony?

Of course, there is another problem. The job Amanda was working only paid 5 euros an hour. I have asked here previously how one can be demoted from such a job and no one gave a substantive answer.

 

[RoseMontague]

I think most people would hand out fliers during the day to generate business that night. Why would Patrick tell her not to come in that night because business was slow if her job was passing out fliers? I just don't think this rumor has any substance behind it.
The "I was there" quote is still being floated as well to imply some sort of confession. This seems to me to be an almost intentional misrepresentation to make Amanda look guilty. It has no substance behind it either.

 

[Withnail1969]

I think most people would hand out fliers during the day to generate business that night. Why would Patrick tell her not to come in that night because business was slow if her job was passing out fliers? I just don't think this rumor has any substance behind it.
The "I was there" quote is still being floated as well to imply some sort of confession. This seems to me to be an almost intentional misrepresentation to make Amanda look guilty. It has no substance behind it either.

it's obvious that Amanda at this point had not been demoted. Not only this, but the whole idea of her planned replacement by Meredith seems highly implausible.

From what we know about Meredith she was very committed to her coursework, and it's unlikely she would want to occupy her evenings with a low-paid job unless she was completely broke.

 

[Mary_H]

Yeah I was being sarcastic. Sometimes sarcasm doesn't post well.

http://www.popsci.com.au/2010/05/finally-a-way-to-detect-sarcasm-in-an-email/

I was pretty sure you were, but this comment gave me pause...

I mean if I'm the prosecution that would be a reason to kill someone. Much better than Knox was stoned on the sofa with Raff and suddenly decided to help guede rape and kill Meredith.

...because the prosecution did propose jealousy as a motive for the killing.

 

[christianahannah]

I think most people would hand out fliers during the day to generate business that night. Why would Patrick tell her not to come in that night because business was slow if her job was passing out fliers? I just don't think this rumor has any substance behind it.
The "I was there" quote is still being floated as well to imply some sort of confession. This seems to me to be an almost intentional misrepresentation to make Amanda look guilty. It has no substance behind it either.

According to Amanda's trial testimony she both handed out tickets during the day and worked the bar at night.

CP: You, in your work, Miss, what did you do?

AK: I had to give out tickets during the day, and then when I...in the evening, I arrived at ten, and I would give drinks to the people that worked there...er, the people that came there.

She also states:

AK: In the beginning, I worked every day, and then we organized to work
twice a week.

CP: Which days? Do you remember?

AK: Tuesday and Thursday.

If there was a demotion, so to speak, it could have been in the lessening of her hours worked, however, from what I can find, who is to know who initiated the lessening of hours - Amanda or Patrick?

 

[RoseMontague]

According to Amanda's trial testimony she both handed out tickets during the day and worked the bar at night.



She also states:



If there was a demotion, so to speak, it could have been in the lessening of her hours worked, however, from what I can find, who is to know who initiated the lessening of hours - Amanda or Patrick?

Thanks for the info Christiana. It could be a number of reasons including school or just business at Patrick's being slow. Do you know offhand how long she had been working there?

 

[Katody Matrass]

Your right I dont know why they dropped out. Of course, dropping out of a lawsuit that your suppose to be part of because you are accused of hitting a suspect, is just like doing cart wheels in a police station. Raises an eyebrow.

Perhaps they have enough insight to feel that this time Mignini is going down for good. The wise thing to do is keep uninvolved and stay as far away from his latest screw-up as possible. When he sinks, sooner or later squadra mobile will come under scrutiny too. Police loyalty or not, they don't want to be part of Titanic's orchestra.

 

[Withnail1969]

Thanks for the info Christiana. It could be a number of reasons including school or just business at Patrick's being slow. Do you know offhand how long she had been working there?

As I understand it Patrick's bar Le Chic was not particularly well located within Perugia and was struggling for customers. That was why he invited Meredith to work for one night since she had quite a few friends and she herself would have been an attraction for the business.

 

[christianahannah]

Thanks for the info Christiana. It could be a number of reasons including school or just business at Patrick's being slow. Do you know offhand how long she had been working there?

I believe it was mid-October.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Solange305,

Kevin_Lowe was not claiming expertise in the quote you used; he was claiming that he read the papers which he cited. Your criticism of him is off-target.

I find it baffling that in certain quarters pointing out that you have read the papers in question and that they have not is "arrogance".

I also find it baffling that in the same quarters they call arguments based on having read the peer-reviewed scientific literature "arguing from Google and Youtube".