Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Sherlock Holmes]

RS was on the phone at 8:40 with his father and said Amanda was there. They had visitor that testified she paid them a house call at 8:40. It takes about 20 minutes to walk to AK's apartment. It's possible, but seems improbable. I have posted exact quotes from the Massei report about what I say, but I now have to run to the hospital.

There's nothing in the fact part of the Massei report which says anything about collaboration with Guede or holding MK down. There is also nothing about a sex orgy. The only term of that type, mentioned a couple of times, is "exotic sex". There is no motive.

It takes 5 minutes, not 20, where in the world did you hear that?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

reasonable doubt

By random, I mean LondonJohn taking a study with T(lag)=81.5 minutes, when it could of been T(lag)=43 minutes or 31 minutes for toast (near enough to pizza).



I did acknowledge it further up, as I pointed out he was acquitted even though the experts said that his children were dead at 9:30 pm based on stomach contents, why did the second trial not believe the physical evidence that put Hendricks at the scene according to these experts, unless the evidence was not reliable.

Another similarity with the Kercher case, is that the prosecution tried to introduce jailhouse snitch against Hendricks in the second trial but he was a proven liar.

Odeed,

Hendricks actually had no alibi until the next morning. He obtained a new trial based on what the prosecution introduced at the first trial about his possible motive. The jury may have felt that in the absence of a motive, they could not find him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. However, between Charlie's citation and mine, we have clear evidence about the time of death in the Hendricks case. Do you have any citations from experts that say otherwise?

 

[Danceme]

You do realise that the size of the meal would have an effect on the times you quote from, for a larger meal T[1/2] would be greater as would T[lag].

Also T[1/2] is the time for half the stomach contents to empty and T[lag] is the time after T[1/2] for the stomach to completely empty, so the total time would be T[1/2]+T[lag] ~ 208 minutes (roughly 3 1/2 hours) according to that study.

But your calculations are further irrelevant without knowing how much Meredith Kercher had eaten.

I think it must have an impact as well. Anyone who has ever gorged themselves on turkey dinner at Christmas can definitely almost feel their digestion slow to a crawl.

Lastly, it's well established that Meredith ate only a small-to-moderate sized amount of pizza. The small amount of apple crumble which she probably consumed at around 7.45-8.15pm would have had no impact upon the T9lag) time of the earlier pizza meal, owing to the modular separation of the human stomach.

Why are you assuming Meredith's meal was small to moderate in size? Who said what exactly to prove this? Small to moderate is relative. No one can know for certain the amount of food necessary to make Meredith feel full to bloated, with a corresponding slowdown in her digestion. I know for sure pizza and dessert would do it for me, all those heavy carbs, fats and protein, not to mention the sugar. What exactly did the subjects eat in the studies you read? In the ones I read it was usually some type of light meal.

 

[Chris C]

Still using stomach contents to determine TOD, I see, Lo-J.

Well, I guess it's a free country.

But I guess the fact that real pathologists would never do so doesn't seem to trouble you at all? Hmm?

Yup, the poor coroner. Guess he wasn't a real doctor

 

[Danceme]

Yup, the poor coroner. Guess he wasn't a real doctor

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

By random, I mean LondonJohn taking a study with T(lag)=81.5 minutes, when it could of been T(lag)=43 minutes or 31 minutes for toast (near enough to pizza).

You don't often see the Chewbacca defence in the wild, but the PMF posse have grabbed on to this version of it like a drowning man to his last straw.

(How can Meredith have died at home when mean t(lag) is around eighty minutes? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing! Ladies and gentlemen, Meredith died at home! It does not make sense! Look at me. I'm a lawyer prosecuting a major murder case and I'm arguing that the victim couldn't possibly have been murdered! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense! If mean t(lag) is eighty minutes you must convict! The prosecution rests).

 

[odeed]

Odeed,

Hendricks actually had no alibi until the next morning. He obtained a new trial based on what the prosecution introduced at the first trial about his possible motive. The jury may have felt that without evidence of a motive; therefore, they could not find him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. However, between Charlie's citation and mine, we have clear evidence about the time of death in the Hendricks case. Do you have any citations from experts that say otherwise?

I don't know much about the case, but his alibi was that he left at 11:00pm to drive to Wisconsin for business so I assume someone may have confirmed his arrival, and I do not think there was an attempt by the prosecution to deny that he left that night.

From what I read, there were no witnesses of the crime, a dodgy motive of a overzealous prosecutor, the statement of the police officers who questioned him, and the only physical evidence was the stomach contents testimony. I think the defense during the first trial had experts which suggested two perpetrators based on the blood splatter evidence, they also had someone question the time of death based on the stomach contents.

Are you saying that Hendricks would of been found guilty, and still serving 4 life sentences (he could of been sentenced to death) if the prosecutor had a better motive?

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

I think it must have an impact as well. Anyone who has ever gorged themselves on turkey dinner at Christmas can definitely almost feel their digestion slow to a crawl.

Why are you assuming Meredith's meal was small to moderate in size? Who said what exactly to prove this? Small to moderate is relative. No one can know for certain the amount of food necessary to make Meredith feel full to bloated, with a corresponding slowdown in her digestion. I know for sure pizza and dessert would do it for me, all those heavy carbs, fats and protein, not to mention the sugar. What exactly did the subjects eat in the studies you read? In the ones I read it was usually some type of light meal.

Are you asking because if we substantiate these points you will accept that Meredith died in the 21:10 to 22:00 range and the Massei narrative is completely wrong?

If not, what possible evidence would convince you of this time of death?

This is not a trivial question.

 

[Machiavelli]

Minute example of the complexity of the topic:

Just shards of recent Itlian studies to illustrate the complexity of the topic:

Prof L. Benini (University of Verona) in two studies, each on 8 subjects, observed the stomach emptying after a solid/mix meal of 700-870 kcal., and he found that the “normal” value for the emptying of 50% of stomach content was 186 minutes (± 44 min*) if the meal contained 4 grams of fibres. But for a similar 700-870 kcal meal containing 20 grams of fibres, the normal time for 50% content emptying would be 231 minutes (±49 min*). Technique for measurement is the ecography with measurement of antral diameters. Note the very high errors.
In another 10-subject study, Prof. R. Ricci (University of Rome), found that with a meal of 1050 kcal (solid+ liquid) the normal value to achieve a reduction of stomach content to 60% is would be 300 minutes (similar measurement technique: antral volume ecography).

The measurement is an issue. The G.I.S.M.A.D (Gruppo Italiano per lo studio della motilità dell’apparato digerente) defines schintigraphy (radiograpfic analysis) as “inaccurate”.

One should also be aware that literature studies create homogeneous groups, and results are thus referred to homogeneous starting conditions, like: patients who have not been eating for the previous 12 h., a meal that is not followed by other subsequent meals (no further continuous or discontinuous food assumption), no contemporary or subsequent alcohol assumption, similar kind of meals and controlled meals…. While other researches exist to investigate how inhomogeneous ways of food assumption can influence the expected figures in various ways.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Just shards of recent Itlian studies to illustrate the complexity of the topic:

Prof L. Benini (University of Verona) in two studies, each on 8 subjects, observed the stomach emptying after a solid/mix meal of 700-870 kcal., and he found that the “normal” value for the emptying of 50% of stomach content was 186 minutes (± 44 min*) if the meal contained 4 grams of fibres. But for a similar 700-870 kcal meal containing 20 grams of fibres, the normal time for 50% content emptying would be 231 minutes (±49 min*). Technique for measurement is the ecography with measurement of antral diameters. Note the very high errors.
In another 10-subject study, Prof. R. Ricci (University of Rome), found that with a meal of 1050 kcal (solid+ liquid) the normal value to achieve a reduction of stomach content to 60% is would be 300 minutes (similar measurement technique: antral volume ecography).

Why are you talking about t(1/2) measurements? There was no food in Meredith's duodenum.

The measurement is an issue. The G.I.S.M.A.D (Gruppo Italiano per lo studio della motilità dell’apparato digerente) defines schintigraphy (radiograpfic analysis) as “inaccurate”.

A dead giveaway that someone is cherry-picking or just hasn't done their research is when they post a claim about a scientific method being "inaccurate" without stating exactly what that means in mathematical terms for that method.

Measuring the length of my toe with a wooden ruler is inaccurate too, but it's sufficient to determine that my toes aren't ten centimetres long.

One should also be aware that literature studies create homogeneous groups, and results are thus referred to homogeneous starting conditions, like: patients who have not been eating for the previous 12 h., a meal that is not followed by other subsequent meals (no further continuous or discontinuous food assumption), no contemporary or subsequent alcohol assumption, similar kind of meals and controlled meals…. While other researches exist to investigate how inhomogeneous ways of food assumption can influence the expected figures in various ways.

We are still waiting on a study saying that a t(lag) value of 300+ minutes is plausible for a healthy young woman eating a small-to-moderate sized meal with no alcohol under relaxed conditions, which is what it would take for the Massei time of death to be correct. Ideally it would also state that identifiable cheese (possibly mozzarella) and vegetable fibres could also be present 300+ minutes after eating under such circumstances.

Until then, your case is the equivalent of saying "People's heights vary a lot. Some people are only 0.57 metres tall, but some are as tall as 2.72 metres. So while the prosecution's theory that a 4.00 metre tall person did it may seem strange, it's really perfectly reasonable".

 

[Chris C]

Why are you assuming Meredith's meal was small to moderate in size? Who said what exactly to prove this? Small to moderate is relative. No one can know for certain the amount of food necessary to make Meredith feel full to bloated, with a corresponding slowdown in her digestion. I know for sure pizza and dessert would do it for me, all those heavy carbs, fats and protein, not to mention the sugar. What exactly did the subjects eat in the studies you read? In the ones I read it was usually some type of light meal.

So you want to know what? How long it would take for pizza to digest?

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Why are you assuming Meredith's meal was small to moderate in size? Who said what exactly to prove this? Small to moderate is relative. No one can know for certain the amount of food necessary to make Meredith feel full to bloated, with a corresponding slowdown in her digestion. I know for sure pizza and dessert would do it for me, all those heavy carbs, fats and protein, not to mention the sugar. What exactly did the subjects eat in the studies you read? In the ones I read it was usually some type of light meal.

On page 115[109] of the Massei report is the following summary:

In the autopsy, Dr. Lalli noted the following: "... oesophagus containing a fragment apparently a piece of mushroom (page 46) ... stomach containing 500 cc alimentary bolus, green brown in which were recognizable caseosis (mozzarella?) and vegetable fibre ... empty duodenum, small intestine containing digested material in the last loop ...? (pages 47 and 48 of report).

Since her stomach had not yet begun to empty, this would be the entire contents of her final meal plus the dessert, minus some water.

I'm not inclined to be as categorical as some on this subject. I recognize that there is a margin of doubt. This evidence falls short of absolute proof, but it is nevertheless a strong indication that she was killed before 10 pm. If you combine this indicator with the aborted call to her mother, which I think she'd have tried again, or at least left a voicemail, and then the 10 pm pressing of random keys on the phone, it supports the premise that Guede was in the place, and Meredith walked into an ambush.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Introna on the time of death

Stilicho,

You have apparently reported that defense expert witness coroner Francesco Introna testified that the time of death was 21:50. This is false; both Ann Wise and Candace Dempsey (p. 298, Murder in Italy) report that he put the time of death as 21:30.

The subject of the knife wounds and how many attackers there were comes up regularly here. Introna’s reconstruction and another report on his testimony about the knife can be found in this video clip and at Perugia-shock. The clip also has in interview with Madison Paxton that deals with Amanda Knox's real character.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Hendricks' retrial

odeed,

You asked, "Are you saying that Hendricks would of been found guilty, and still serving 4 life sentences (he could of been sentenced to death) if the prosecutor had a better motive?"

One cannot be certain what their reasons were because the jury does not issue a formal report in the United States. I happen to like this aspect of the Italian system, although the Massei report is far from ideal, as I have previously discussed.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Until then, your case is the equivalent of saying "People's heights vary a lot. Some people are only 0.57 metres tall, but some are as tall as 2.72 metres. So while the prosecution's theory that a 4.00 metre tall person did it may seem strange, it's really perfectly reasonable".

That's a good analogy.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Indeed. I think it's quite telling that the case for an early time of death includes:

• Rudy's statement that he was there from 20:30 to 22:00.
• The anomalous 22:00 phone calls.
• The anomalous 22:13 contact with another tower, accessible from the murder house only by hanging your phone out the window.
• The fact that Meredith made no calls of her own after 20:56.
• The fact that identifiable cheese (possibly mozzarella) and vegetable fibre was still in Meredith's stomach.
• The fact that there was no digested matter in Meredith's duodenum.
• The fact that this time of death is consistent with the body temperature evidence.

Yet certain individuals are still claiming with a straight face that the early time of death is based solely on the stomach contents. I find their claims very hard to reconcile with the charitable assumption that they speak in good faith.

Whereas the complete list of evidence for a late time of death is:

• They look guilty, and we can't make up any story that's even slightly plausible that has them murdering her before 23:30.

That's it. Not one solitary bit of forensic evidence supports a later time of death.

 

[Chris C]

It seems that here and elsewhere, some people are unable to grasp the concept of normal distribution as it applies to stomach emptying. I will now attempt to help by explaining how the known research evidence relates to the known evidence from the Kercher case.
/snip

Maybe yall should try a different approach. You can use either Captain Dummy Talk or KISS.

Wake up at 7am, eat and go to school, 5 hours pass, stomach empty, must eat. Go to lunch.

Meredith goes to friends house, eats between 6pm and 6:30pm. Meredith body found with full stomach. Must have died less than 5 hours.

 

[Danceme]

Are you asking because if we substantiate these points you will accept that Meredith died in the 21:10 to 22:00 range and the Massei narrative is completely wrong?

If not, what possible evidence would convince you of this time of death?

This is not a trivial question.

Kevin, my point is whether or not the type and quantity of food would affect the rate at which digestion occurred. The studies you quoted did not duplicate Meredith's meal.

So you want to know what? How long it would take for pizza to digest?

Well...since you asked, yes

 

[Fine]

More Crumble

Just shards of recent Itlian studies to illustrate the complexity of the topic:

Prof L. Benini (University of Verona) in two studies, each on 8 subjects, observed the stomach emptying after a solid/mix meal of 700-870 kcal., and he found that the “normal” value for the emptying of 50% of stomach content was 186 minutes (± 44 min*) if the meal contained 4 grams of fibres. But for a similar 700-870 kcal meal containing 20 grams of fibres, the normal time for 50% content emptying would be 231 minutes (±49 min*). Technique for measurement is the ecography with measurement of antral diameters. Note the very high errors.
In another 10-subject study, Prof. R. Ricci (University of Rome), found that with a meal of 1050 kcal (solid+ liquid) the normal value to achieve a reduction of stomach content to 60% is would be 300 minutes (similar measurement technique: antral volume ecography).

The measurement is an issue. The G.I.S.M.A.D (Gruppo Italiano per lo studio della motilità dell’apparato digerente) defines schintigraphy (radiograpfic analysis) as “inaccurate”.

One should also be aware that literature studies create homogeneous groups, and results are thus referred to homogeneous starting conditions, like: patients who have not been eating for the previous 12 h., a meal that is not followed by other subsequent meals (no further continuous or discontinuous food assumption), no contemporary or subsequent alcohol assumption, similar kind of meals and controlled meals…. While other researches exist to investigate how inhomogeneous ways of food assumption can influence the expected figures in various ways.

_____________________

Speaking of monotony in the studies, this leads to a hundred more questions. For starters,... Did any of these scientific studies determine the acceleration/retardation of digestion when the subject is under the influence of cannabis? A widely used drug ---they say---among students in Perugia. Meredith included. And what about the fact that Meredith ---a couple months prior to her sad death---had traveled to a Mediterranean climate from foggy London with her tummy exposed to a different and confounding diet? (Pizza topped with Anglo-Saxon crumble cake + ice cream. How do you spell ROLAIDS?) Not to mention the "medieval" culture. And how many studies on digestion measured the effect of feeling "homesick"?


///

 

[Chris C]

Well...since you asked, yes

http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/stomach-contents-as-a-means-of-evidence.html