Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[colonelhall]

"There is testimony that the meal was eaten at 6:30?"

Does the apple crumble not count as part of the meal?

At what time did they eat dessert?

Has anybody viewed the movie to ascertain the exact moment at which it is likely that a dessert break would have occurred?

 

[LondonJohn]

One thing about the time of death issue, I don't think it's necessary that Meredith was killed at 21:10 or even before 21:30, because as we've seen, stress and shock can slow digestion. It's only necessary that she was attacked around that time. Personally I think that's more likely, and that the time of death was between 21:30-22:00, because I can't see why Rudy would've hung around for almost an hour after she'd died. Around 21:00 does seem a very likely time for the start of the attack, though.

It makes no difference in terms of Knox and Sollecito's guilt/innocence, since either way they couldn't have been there at that time, but the slightly later time of death seems to me to fit the facts a bit better, and not to contradict the evidence of the stomach contents.

True, but even extreme shock can only slow the digestive system - not stop it in its tracks. My guess would be that Meredith was confronted within minutes of entering the house, and attacked by 9.20 or so (after she resisted a sexual assault). Bear in mind that the horrible manner of her death would have meant that even if she was attacked at 9.20, her digestive system would probably have functioned until around 9.30, within 5-10 minutes after which she would have been brain dead. So this would only leave her assailant (let's call him "Rudy") some 20 minutes to realise the gravity of what he'd done, grab towels, wash himself, take the money and belongings and leave.

 

[Justinian2]

The court believed her testimony, including approximate time of awakening. I think most people can tell, when they wake up in the middle of the night, whether they've been asleep 5 minutes versus 1-2 hours.

She then remained up, having to drink tea to calm herself down from the fright of the scream. I think at that time, she would have realized if it was only 5 minutes after she fell asleep, and would have testified to such. She didn't.


Antonella Monacchia and witness Maria Dramis corroborated the time. Monacchia went to bed at 10 pm and woke up some time later, hearing arguing and the same scream Nara heard. Although she doesn't give a time, she says it was "late," implying it was not just 5 minutes after she fell asleep. Again, one can tell how long one has been asleep in the sense of differentiating 5-10 minutes from an hour or more (at least I can, and I think most people can).

In the cast of witness Dramis, we have a time record: the end of a movie, which she watched with her sister. She then testified she went to bed at 11:30, and heard the same running footsteps on the iron steps that Capezzali heard shortly thereafter.

The court believed these witnesses as credible. That may not be "evidence" in your book, but in most civilized societies, court decisions are honored unless strong evidence to contradict them is found. Where is yours?

I couldn't scream when I encountered what I was certain was an intruder in my house. It turned out to be my new girlfriend wandering around in the dark. I emitted a hoarse whisper to "Get the hell out". That scared my girlfriend who replied "You scared me." A recent Yahoo article said the same: most drowning victims aren't able to scream.

The scream was part of the collection of non-valid evidence.

 

[LondonJohn]

"There is testimony that the meal was eaten at 6:30?"

Does the apple crumble not count as part of the meal?

At what time did they eat dessert?

Has anybody viewed the movie to ascertain the exact moment at which it is likely that a dessert break would have occurred?

No it doesn't count. I know I've said it before (numerous times...), but the human stomach is not a single large homogeneous "bag". In fact, it is capable of muscular contraction into separate areas - the cardia, fundus, corpus and pylorus - each of which deal with different parts of the initial digestion process. Evolution has seen nicely to the ability to continuously digest, owing to the part-grazing nature of our ancestors.

Because of this, the pizza meal would have probably passed through to the end of the corpus and even into the pylorus by the time that the apple crumble meal appeared at the cardia. The two would have been kept separate, and treated individually.

 

[lane99]

Fuji, you're a very good sport for being willing to play the clown for our amusement.

Particularly so since, by the very logic you included in your sig line, by so doing you've just dishonoured yourself.

Socrates must be rolling over in his grave. But, don't worry, it's probably convulsions of laughter.

 

[colonelhall]

"Because of this, the pizza meal would have probably passed through to the end of the corpus"

So, when you say "probably" you mean that what you have stated is not 100% certain.

I take it that you are saying that all this stuff that you have been expecting us to take as fact is just a probability.

You're making it all up, aren't you.

I've got to hand it to you, you certainly sound convincing. Good try!

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

So prove that the meal was before the given times and the likely Tod moves closer to 9:00. AK and RS have an alibi. Couple the alibi to the lack of valid evidence, and AK and RS are certainly innocent as per data and facts given in the Massie report.

There is testimony that the meal was eaten at 6:30?

And now how in the world does Amanda have an alibi if the TOD is closer to 9:00?

 

[LondonJohn]

"Because of this, the pizza meal would have probably passed through to the end of the corpus"

So, when you say "probably" you mean that what you have stated is not 100% certain.

I take it that you are saying that all this stuff that you have been expecting us to take as fact is just a probability.

You're making it all up, aren't you.

I've got to hand it to you, you certainly sound convincing. Good try!

Yes, I said probably, with regard to where in the corpus the pizza would have reached. I can, however, say with some certainty, that the apple crumble dessert would have arrived at the cardia, then passed through to the fundus, and would have been kept separate from the pizza meal in the corpus which would have already have been mixed with various stomach acids and enzymes.

No, I'm not making it all up. I thoroughly recommend that you do a little research on human stomach function before you wrote posts like this one. Thank you, and good night.

 

[katy_did]

"Because of this, the pizza meal would have probably passed through to the end of the corpus"

So, when you say "probably" you mean that what you have stated is not 100% certain.

I take it that you are saying that all this stuff that you have been expecting us to take as fact is just a probability.

You're making it all up, aren't you.

I've got to hand it to you, you certainly sound convincing. Good try!

I think it's all about probability, isn't it? Of the four consultants who gave an opinion on time of death based on stomach contents, I believe two of them said Meredith died within 2-3 hours of the start of her last meal, and two said within 3-4 hours of the meal. That can be modified slightly I think, based on the fact that trauma can delay digestion, but even so the attack itself would need to have started within that period of time.

Now perhaps it's possible, under some circumstances, for the emptying of the stomach contents to take longer. But what's the probability of that happening, and how likely is it that it would take over 5 hours to even begin? And are we to assume that a 69 year old bladder keeps better time, as Massei did (based, as far as I know, on zero scientific evidence)?

 

[Solange305]

Capezzali's testimony has been pretty conclusively demolished here on this forum in recent days. Please do not attempt to argue from authority using the court's decision on this forum.

LMAO, you "demolished" a witness testimony, in a "forum"? You demolish a witness's testimony in a court of law, on the stand. You can say you disagree with the testimony, and with the court's judgment, but to say you can demolish said testimony on an internet forum is a little self-aggrandizing if you ask me.

 

[LondonJohn]

Apparently, some people still believe that Meredith's autopsy stomach/duodenum contents are consistent with a time of death later than 11pm!

 

[Katody Matrass]

If something as flimsy as the elderly lady's story is intended to be the very *foundation* of the prosecution's assertion about time of death, that is simply another reason that sensible people will doubt the legitimacy of a guilty verdict in this case.

That's the problem with this case.

Not long ago, when I started reading about it, it looked at least reasonable: they have a weapon, they have lots of traces, a motive. But then they showed you cannot take anything they say for granted;

An unlawful interrogation without a lawyer, without a recording, ending with a retracted false confession.
Then a campaign of lies; They lied about Sollecito's shoeprint, about Knox's "bloody shoeprint", bleach receipts, "mixed blood", even Harry Potter books , all the leaks and smear starting over a year before the trials.

OK, if only there were some solid evidence - but what we've got is two pieces of DNA acquired in the most unprofessional way imaginable. We've got all the cargo-cult forensics - samples taken without pliers, without changing gloves, and especially without controls, ran through a lab in such a way that they are afraid or too ashamed to release the raw data. Lots of incompetence - destroying and altering hard drives, failing to secure or test various evidence.

Lastly instead of a coherent narrative we're served a conspiracy theory story, prominently displaying various coincidences and "strange behavior" of the accused - a real Rube Goldberg contraption - everything is hanging on hairs: the stretched ToD, the "fake" break-in, kitchen knives carried for protection, nonsensical incorporating of Guede who is barely known to the accused - all of this spiced up with a "drug fueled sex orgy" fantasy and flimsily supported by the witnesses brought by compliant media.

Seriously, I think it's not unreasonable to express doubts or think the court might have erred here.

Good night

 

[Solange305]

Solange305,

They use a good deal of salty language over at this site, which I find disturbing. Feel free to summarize their arguments in your own words, however (I don't see how that would run afoul of the rules here).

Thank you Halides, I am not sure I will have time tonight, but I will try.

 

[Justinian2]

And now how in the world does Amanda have an alibi if the TOD is closer to 9:00?

RS was on the phone at 8:40 with his father and said Amanda was there. They had visitor that testified she paid them a house call at 8:40. It takes about 20 minutes to walk to AK's apartment. It's possible, but seems improbable. I have posted exact quotes from the Massei report about what I say, but I now have to run to the hospital.

There's nothing in the fact part of the Massei report which says anything about collaboration with Guede or holding MK down. There is also nothing about a sex orgy. The only term of that type, mentioned a couple of times, is "exotic sex". There is no motive.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

was there enough time to get high?

RS was on the phone at 8:40 with his father and said Amanda was there. They had visitor that testified she paid them a house call at 8:40. It takes about 20 minutes to walk to AK's apartment. It's possible, but seems improbable. I have posted exact quotes from the Massei report about what I say, but I now have to run to the hospital.

There's nothing in the fact part of the Massei report which says anything about collaboration with Guede or holding MK down. There is also nothing about a sex orgy. The only term of that type, mentioned a couple of times, is "exotic sex". There is no motive.

Justinian,

I have read elsewhere that it is somewhere between 5 and 10 minutes between the two apartments. However, the thing that I cannot get my mind around is that Ms. Popovec described Amanda as acting normally (no big surprise in that she had been expecting to work that night). So that leaves little or no opportunity for Amanda and Raffaele to get stoned, high, drunk, or whatever. Yet, pro-guilt commenters offer the speculation that AK and RS were very much under a chemical influence in the lead-up to the murder.

I forgot to include the time to meet up with Rudy. My question is whether there would be time enough to make this possible or likely.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Still using stomach contents to determine TOD, I see, Lo-J.

Well, I guess it's a free country.

But I guess the fact that real pathologists would never do so doesn't seem to trouble you at all? Hmm?

I do wonder where this talking point came from, seeing as the sainted Micheli and Massei seemed perfectly happy to include stomach contents as relevant evidence.

It's funny that this radical relativism with regard to stomach contents only popped up when it turned out that it (along with the phone records) excluded Massei's time of death. It's a lot like what you would see if people were reasoning backwards from a predetermined conclusion instead of forwards from the evidence.

Fake statistics aside, who's to say (even if your calcs are correct, which is highly unlikely; for example you have cited no evidence to support your t(lag) value or anything else) that Meredith was not one of the 5 in 2000 you posit?

And no, the "probability" of her being in that group is not 5 in 2000, or 5 in 2 million.

She was who she was. She had the digestive tract she had. You cannot know anything about it from your fake statistical analyses.

I've got a card in my hand. You know it was selected at random by cutting a thoroughly shuffled deck. What's the odds it's the ace of spades?

Is it 1/52, or is it "no probability, it is what it is?".

Anyway, she died when she died. Which was after 2300, according to the very credible testimony of Nara Capezzali, which was accepted by 2 professional and 6 lay judges in the very competent Perugia Court of Assizes.

This is simply an appeal to authority. If you're hung around here for any length of time you should know that this is one of the canonical argumentative fallacies. Why would you post one of the canonical fallacies? I mean, seriously?

One piece of the forensic evidence for Meredith being moved after her death is this: In a pool of blood on the floor there was found an impression of Meredith's shoulder and bra strap. It was concluded that the blood must have been somewhat coagulated for said impression to form, and so, at that time, Meredith had died. Meredith---and her bra---were moved some time after the impression was formed, therefore after her death.

It isn't clear to me that Massei's reconstruction of the dynamics of the assault is inconsistent with Meredith's body being moved after death. Perhaps Massei regarded the impression to be ambiguous. Maybe not.

This is one of those interesting allegations, like the bleach receipts or the hairs under Meredith's fingernails, that seems to have dropped out of the official narrative at one point or another. I'm not clear on what happened there, but my inclination is to assume that it wasn't very good evidence if Massei declined to use it to prop up the staging hypothesis. He demonstrably wasn't too fussy.

You do realise that the size of the meal would have an effect on the times you quote from, for a larger meal T[1/2] would be greater as would T[lag].

Also T[1/2] is the time for half the stomach contents to empty and T[lag] is the time after T[1/2] for the stomach to completely empty, so the total time would be T[1/2]+T[lag] ~ 208 minutes (roughly 3 1/2 hours) according to that study.

But your calculations are further irrelevant without knowing how much Meredith Kercher had eaten.

.

We know from the testimony of her friends that Meredith ate a small-to-moderate sized meal, t(lag) isn't the time after T[1/2] for the stomach to completely empty, and you don't add t(1/2) and (lag) together at all.

It's refreshing to see a bit of humility in this thread. As I am satisfied that the verdict reached in the first trial is the correct one, I will not be the "anyone" who illuminates the errors of the defense attorneys. However, as you are one who is demonstrably opposed to said verdict, I think that it is incumbent upon you to correct these errors. Mind you - this is not merely idle academic speculation. Knox's and Sollecito's appeal trial will be beginning in a matter of weeks. The matter of their ongoing incarceration is an uncertain affair. You should contact their legal representatives with all due haste.

Of generous mood this evening, I have done the work for you of locating their respective contact numbers:

Luciano Ghirga - (39)755732555
Giulia Bongiorno - (39)668891168

If they refuse to heed your counsel, you may have to directly prevail upon Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito. I do not have ready access to their contact information, but I am reasonably sure that Bruce or Charlie could provide that for you.

Please report back to us on your progress.

From what I've read the defence is quite aware of the issues with the time of death, and quite aware of the potential to extend Amanda and Raffaele's alibi forwards using the computer evidence. Possibly you've been listening to echo chamber cheerleading about how the defence is all over the place and bound to lose, and so you've got some misconceptions about the reality of the appeals case?

"The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be." - Socrates

So anyway, it turns out that when I flagged you as a PMFer you had by your own admission been browsing PMF for at least a week. So may I ask why you firstly tried to pass it off by saying "I do not post at PMF", and then tried to sell us the story that it was mean old Kevin Lowe who drove you into the loving arms of PMF?

I wouldn't bring it up, but I'm making the charitable assumption that you've been reading Socrates and he's inspired you to change your life.

And now how in the world does Amanda have an alibi if the TOD is closer to 9:00?

Even the prosecution agrees Amanda and Raffaele were at home until 21:10, and while the two sides of the case differ on where the defendants were at 21:30 they both agree they were not at Amanda's house. The defence say they were at home, the prosecution say they were out and being observed by the highly honest and reliable (in their opinion) Curatolo.

Unless you think Doctor Who was involved with this aspect of the case as well, it makes it kind of difficult to stab someone if you aren't physically present.

 

[odeed]

No, you don't understand what T(lag) actually is. T(lag) is actually measured medically as the time when the stomach contents are emptying at the maximum rate. This typically happens (or at least is measurable) at the very beginning of stomach emptying, and some academic studies prefer to refer to it by proxy as the time when 10% of the stomach's contents have left the stomach. This is because gastric studies typically use a number of radioactive markers mixed in with the food ingested, and T(lag) is recorded when the first radioactive marker is seen in the duodenum.

So I'm not sure where you got the idea that T(1/2) and T(lag) ought to be added together to get total stomach emptying time. And I'm then not sure why you think that total stomach emptying time has any relevance to the Kercher case anyhow: in fact quite the reverse is true, since none of Meredith's pizza meal had yet left her stomach.

Lastly, it's well established that Meredith ate only a small-to-moderate sized amount of pizza. The small amount of apple crumble which she probably consumed at around 7.45-8.15pm would have had no impact upon the T9lag) time of the earlier pizza meal, owing to the modular separation of the human stomach.

If you have any other questions that you'd like answered, I'll be happy to help if I can.

Gotcha, yep I was wrong, T(lag) from what I can find is the lag time taken for "processing of food into particles small enough to pass the pylorus." which is different to what you said as well.

However the same article goes onto say that T(lag) and T(1/2) are both influenced by the type and amount food, so I cannot see the point of using some random study which has no correlation to the meal Meredith Kercher ate that night.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

what would it take

However the same article goes onto say that T(lag) and T(1/2) are both influenced by the type and amount food, so I cannot see the point of using some random study which has no correlation to the meal Meredith Kercher ate that night.

Odeed,

What do you mean by random?

You have yet to acknowledge the relevance of the Hendricks case, which does have a correlation to the meal that Meredith ate. Some people are difficult to please.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

_________________

One piece of the forensic evidence for Meredith being moved after her death is this: In a pool of blood on the floor there was found an impression of Meredith's shoulder and bra strap. It was concluded that the blood must have been somewhat coagulated for said impression to form, and so, at that time, Meredith had died. Meredith---and her bra---were moved some time after the impression was formed, therefore after her death.

It isn't clear to me that Massei's reconstruction of the dynamics of the assault is inconsistent with Meredith's body being moved after death. Perhaps Massei regarded the impression to be ambiguous. Maybe not.

///

I got the following from PMF some time ago, and saved it as a text file. Usually I note who the translator is, but in this case I didn't do that:

Page 60:

Lo stesso stato del cadavere rivela segni di modifica dell’aspetto iniziale. Riprendendo la relazione dei Consulenti medico-legali della difesa KNOX, vi si legge che sul corpo di MEREDITH si riscontrano “minute macchioline puntiformi alla faccia anteriore del torace, indubbiamente originatesi direttamente dalla fonte di emorragia al collo (le loro dimensioni suggeriscono che siano state proiettate per attività respiratoria a vie aeree ingombre di sangue). Il loro aspetto (piccole e tondeggianti) ci dice che esse furono proiettate verso l’alto a vittima sostanzialmente supina (a faccia in su) per ricadere, quindi, sul suo petto”; analoghe macchioline non vi sono nella parte alta del torace, coperta evidentemente dalla maglietta arrotolata, per cui “quando quelle macchie si produssero il reggiseno non era più indossato: non vi è schermatura operata da questo indumento, e le goccioline imbrattarono le regioni cutanee che originariamente ne erano coperte”.
Non si può essere d’accordo con l’assunto appena esposto.

Il reggiseno, e la constatazione è obiettiva, fu rivenuto a pochi centimetri di distanza dal piede destro della ragazza, in una zona per nulla attinta da sangue, eppure la spallina destra ne risulta abbondantemente intrisa; inoltre, guarda caso, sulle coppe si vedono con palese evidenza lo stesso tipo di macchioline puntiformi riscontrabili sul busto. Ciò significa che la vittima aveva sì la maglietta arrotolata verso il collo, quando fu colpita (come si vedrà, si tratta di un’osservazione empirica di fondamentale rilievo per dare una connotazione sessuale all’aggressione), altrimenti non si vedrebbero le macchioline né sulla pelle né sul reggiseno, ma quest’ultimo lo aveva regolarmente indosso. Le foto nn. 268 e 770, ampiamente illustrate dalla difesa del GUEDE, rivelano poi con chiarezza i segni di quel capo di biancheria (una striscia verticale, piuttosto nitida) sia sul corpo della giovane che sul pavimento sottostante: a dimostrazione ulteriore che il reggiseno fu tolto dopo che il sangue aveva avuto modo di interessare per un tempo apprezzabile la spallina, appunto quella rivelatasi intrisa all’atto del ritrovamento.

Translation:

The state of the body itself reveals signs of an alteration in its initial appearance. Returning to the report of the medico-legal advisors for Knox’s defense, we read that on the body of Meredith there are "minute spots on the front of the chest, undoubtedly originating directly from the bleeding from the neck (their dimensions suggest that they were produced by respiration through an airway obstructed by blood). Their appearance (small and round) tells us that they were projected upward, with the victim substantially supine (face up), and thus landed on her chest"; similar spots are not present on the upper chest, which was obviously covered by a rolled up T-shirt, so "when those spots were produced, the bra was no longer being worn: there was no screening done by this garment, and the droplets mark the area of the skin that was originally covered."
We cannot agree with the aforementioned assumption.
The bra, and this is an unbiased observation, was found a few inches away from the girl's right foot in an area not at all stained with blood, yet the right shoulder strap was abundantly soaked; also, it is the case that on the cups can evidently be seen the same type of spots as found on the chest. This signifies that the victim had her T-shirt rolled up to the neck when she was attacked (as we shall see, this is the fundamentally important empirical observation that gives a sexual connotation to the assault), otherwise it would be hard to understand the spots on the skin or the bra, if it had been worn in the regular position. Photos no. 268 and 770, as explained at length by the Guede’s defense, then clearly show signs of that article of clothing (a vertical strip, rather well-defined) both on the body of the young woman and on the floor below: a further demonstration that the bra was removed after the blood had had the opporuntity to cover for an appreciable time the shoulder strap, which was soaked at the time it was found.

Thoughtful and Brian,
Be careful to this passage from Micheli:

" ... (come si vedrà, si tratta di un’osservazione empirica di fondamentale rilievo per dare una connotazione sessuale all’aggressione), altrimenti non si vedrebbero le macchioline né sulla pelle né sul reggiseno, ma quest’ultimo lo aveva regolarmente indosso".


the correct translation (of the whole) is:

" ... signifies that the victim had her T-shirt rolled up to the neck when she was attacked (as we shall see, this is an empirical observation fundamentally important to give a sexual connotation to the assault), otherwise we won't have the spots neither on the skin nor on the bra, but the latter, she was wearing it in the regular position".

The last sencence is quite important in order to understand what Micheli believes to be evidence of a staging. He says: forensic examination indicate that the bra was removed after her death.



Whatever the correct translation may be, the bra had to have been pushed above her breasts when she died, because the fine spray of blood (from aspirating wounds) was visible on her breasts as well as the cups of the bra.

I don't have a photo numbered 770, but I do have number 268, showing the rectangular bloodstain on her back, apparently from the bra. To me it looks like a stain that could be created in an instant, and I don't understand why Micheli thinks otherwise. But certainly his comments have nothing to do with livor mortis.

 

[odeed]

Odeed,

What do you mean by random?

By random, I mean LondonJohn taking a study with T(lag)=81.5 minutes, when it could of been T(lag)=43 minutes or 31 minutes for toast (near enough to pizza).

You have yet to acknowledge the relevance of the Hendricks case, which does have a correlation to the meal that Meredith ate. Some people are difficult to please.

I did acknowledge it further up, as I pointed out he was acquitted even though the experts said that his children were dead at 9:30 pm based on stomach contents, why did the second trial not believe the physical evidence that put Hendricks at the scene according to these experts, unless the evidence was not reliable.

Another similarity with the Kercher case, is that the prosecution tried to introduce jailhouse snitch against Hendricks in the second trial but he was a proven liar.