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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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You have a lot of beliefs. Certainly Knox was not asked to write down and give them names and information about those people, because it makes no sense in the medical practice. Medical staff has no need and no use for names and addresses, this information is useless to the doctor for medical purposes. If the doctor said to make a list and contact them, they gave them the correct advice in terms of security. But:



This is not true. Because Amanda could have made a separate list with no explicit information and could have submitted it to her attorneys, and provided personal information only in the privileged communication with attorneys in order to contact the people through their channel. In fact this is the only way to contact these people, because authorities would never contact them nor deliver such information.

Although I have no idea how this operates in Italy, if it is a first-world country it probably has a modern public health system. It's common in public health practise to ask people who have been identified as having infectious communicable diseases to name their contacts or partners. Amanda's participation in this exercise (she must have been scared) suggests that the train man story was indeed an inside joke.

You men and women who obsess about this woman's sexuality are sad cases.
 
Why are you making those questions?
They have nothing to do with the theory that a prosecutor may have orchestrated a fake test and a leak of sexually-related material in order to influence the public.


I asked whether Amanda knew her diary could go public in response to your post, "No, she leaked it herself, by writing it in her prison diary. Anything a person in cautional custody does or keeps in their cell is not private." Your claim that she leaked the diary herself is not valid unless she knew that what she was writing could not be kept not private.

From Amanda's testimony, it sounds like the confiscation of the diary was unexpected:

CDV: And this diary which is in the dossier, from the period of Oct 8 to Dec 29, 2007, when you were in prison, do you remember what happened?

AK: Yes. They called me downstairs and told me that they had to confiscate some things in my room. They told me I could either go up with them and do what I wanted and they would come later with a warrant, or I could let them take whatever they wanted spontaneously. I said they could, so they came up with me and they came into my room and looked in all my things, and they took everything on which I had written anything.

CDV: Listen, in relation to this diary, there is a part in which you tell about the AIDS tests that were made in the first days. Can you tell us? It's written in the diary, but you can tell us exactly what happened, and also why you wrote about it in the diary?

AK: So, the first thing that happened when I got to prison was that they made a [blood] analysis. After the analysis, they called me downstairs and told me that they had to make further tests because I might have AIDS. I was really shocked because I didn't understand how it could have happened that I could have gotten AIDS. But they advised to to think about where I might have caught it, so they wanted me to really think about it. So I was writing in my diary about how astonished I was, and then I wrote down every partner that I had ever had in my life...


I asked the question about the lawyers because I am curious about whether it is a custom in Italy for lawyers to instruct their clients to keep prison diaries, and I thought you might know. All three defendants kept prison diaries. If that is the custom, it lends more credence to the belief that the prosecution might have been relying on what they could get Amanda to write.

Additionally, if her lawyers asked her to keep the diary, it would have been their responsibility to let her know that it could be confiscated and become public, and that she should be very careful about what she writes.

Inmates are tested for HIV for obvious reasons. Of course she was gives informed consent, otherwise the doctor cannot take her blood, consent is not specifically related to HIV, only blood test in general.


These are false assumptions. Consent is specifically related to HIV, and the World Health Organization recommends against routine testing of prisoners for the virus. Furthermore, Amanda is not in a high risk population -- she has a greater risk of developing breast cancer and heart disease than HIV. One wonders whether they tested her for those conditions, too, or just for conditions having to do with sexually transmitted diseases. One also wonders whether the male defendants were tested at all.

From later in Amanda's testimony:

CDV: How many times did they make the test to check whether you were positive?

AK: So, I think it was three times. I think they made one where it was negative, then one where it was maybe positive, maybe negative, and then one where it was negative.

CDV: How much time passed between the first and the last?

AK: Two weeks.


From what Amanda says in these pieces of testimony, it sounds to me like they didn't test her for HIV in the first blood analysis, because they had not gotten permission from her to do so. Then they told he she might have HIV, which was a roundabout way of getting her to give them permission to test her "again."

I have no idea of Amanda’s information about writings nor of her lawyers instructions.

The doctor “stood by” ?!!
What are you talking about? The doctor has nothing to do with that. The doctor has no responsibility over Amanda’s sensitive data in her possession. Amanda is the only person legally entitled to complain for this kind of violation.


I would think that the prison doctor(s) who performed Amanda's HIV tests would be highly offended to see how her right to medical privacy was illegally violated by the media and by whomever provided the media with the information. The fact that they remained silent leads to questions about whether they even knew anything about the HIV tests, or whether they knew but were afraid to speak.

This rule in particular has a cause, not a goal. The cause is the structure of the judicial system, in which too many powers and actors are involved and have access to investigation files. It is a paradox effect of transparency in a beaurocratized investigation process. The main goal is obviously a form of democratic transparency, of which witnesses and suspects in custody may pay the price: the public and the other judges want to see the ongoing work of prosecutors and judges, see what they investigate and why, the material they search and collect, how they motivate their decisions. A rule doesn't have a goal slanted in only one direction and never has only one side, a rule is a rule, you are supposed to know in advance how it works in the place where you are. If you know the rules you can better serve your interests, regardless who you are. Not knowing of rules, praxis and cultures always creates a disadvantage.


It sounds like you are describing something similar to the Freedom of Information Act, used in the United States to gain access to court records. I can certainly appreciate that it's a form of democratic transparency. The objectionable aspects in this case, though, are that authorities unnecessarily confiscated personal materials (legal, not contraband), which then made their way into the hands of the media, solely for prurient interests. Given the subject matter, the whole scenario suggests intentional character assassination by the prosecutor in charge of the investigation.
 
But did you acknowledge the differeence between medical guidelines and medical deontology (ethical code)?

Do you acknowledge that guiedelines are not legal codes, while deontology is?

Do you acknowledge they are written by different authorities?

While I'm flattered that you've adopted my phraseology, I'm curious about exactly what point you are arguing here.

If you are arguing that it's immoral but not illegal to publicise Amanda's HIV test results and her lifetime list of sexual contacts, you may or may not be right but I don't think it helps the prosecution out of the moral hole they are in.

If you are arguing that it's immoral but not illegal to poison the public mind against a defendant by doing so, you may or may not be right about that as well but the same comment about the moral hole still applies.

If you are arguing that it's moral to release her private medical information, however it was obtained, then you are going to need something more that you have offered to convince most people: medical privacy is one of the rights that for good practical reasons as well as good moral reasons most people are very, very reluctant to see systematically infringed.
 
While I'm flattered that you've adopted my phraseology, I'm curious about exactly what point you are arguing here.

If you are arguing that it's immoral but not illegal to publicise Amanda's HIV test results and her lifetime list of sexual contacts, you may or may not be right but I don't think it helps the prosecution out of the moral hole they are in.

If you are arguing that it's immoral but not illegal to poison the public mind against a defendant by doing so, you may or may not be right about that as well but the same comment about the moral hole still applies.

If you are arguing that it's moral to release her private medical information, however it was obtained, then you are going to need something more that you have offered to convince most people: medical privacy is one of the rights that for good practical reasons as well as good moral reasons most people are very, very reluctant to see systematically infringed.



The prosecutor and the police weaseled out of it, but the journalist and her publisher were busted.

Small Victory For Amanda Knox
Italian Civil Court Awarded Knox $55,000 in Damages For Violation of Privacy


Amanda Knox's lawyer, Carlo Dalla Vedova, told ABC News that in the proceedings against Sarzanini and Rizzoli, he had argued a violation of Knox's privacy as far as her sexual activity and medical history were concerned, both of which are protected by privacy laws in Italy.

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/AmandaKnox/small-victory-amanda-knox/story?id=10169888
 
"In some jurisdictions" it is still illegal to wear heels which are too high or too narrow. "In some jurisdictions" it is still illegal for unmarried couples to co-habitate. "In some jurisdictions" it is still illegal to do quite a few things. I could go on for a long time.

The Fed law concerning misprision of felony first started getting it's teeth pulled by the SCOTUS back in 1822. State laws, where they might still be on the books, haven't fared very well since then, either.

You had a point to make when you posted the comment you did about the woman's exposure to liability in the U.S. for not promptly reporting the scream she heard, and I don't believe that the point was that there remain a handful of obscure statutes which have been ignored for a century or so that she might have been guilty of transgressing had she been in the U.S.

Or did I misunderstand your intent?

The point was that Nara herself is morally culpable for not reporting 'the scream of death' to the authorities either at the time of the event or as soon as it became clear that a murder had taken place.
 
The point was that Nara herself is morally culpable for not reporting 'the scream of death' to the authorities either at the time of the event or as soon as it became clear that a murder had taken place.


So, since we have established that the virtually unanimous trend of nearly two centuries of the laws which you specifically singled out to support this assertion has been that she is not, how well do you think you have made that point?
 
So, since we have established that the virtually unanimous trend of nearly two centuries of the laws which you specifically singled out to support this assertion has been that she is not, how well do you think you have made that point?

Perhaps in your world witnessing a murder (hearing a scream of death close by) and then doing nothing to assist the authorities in catching the murderer does not reflect badly on the witness.

That's not the moral universe that most decent people inhabit, I think.
 
Perhaps in your world witnessing a murder (hearing a scream of death close by) and then doing nothing to assist the authorities in catching the murderer does not reflect badly on the witness.

That's not the moral universe that most decent people inhabit, I think.


It isn't about me. I've indicated no personal opinion concerning the moral rectitude of such behavior either one way or another.

You, on the other hand, have not only taken such a stand in an apparent effort to discredit a witness, but then went a step further and sought to support your personal opinion by alleging that a weight of jurisprudence exists to demonstrate that in the eyes of society it is considered to be more than merely a moral deficiency.

It appears that this is not the case. In fact, it seems that the opposite is true, and the legal view of such an ethical dilemma has been increasingly and rather consistently at odds with your personal opinion.

This is your argument, not mine. You are the one who chose to offer the claims of legal backing for your perspective. I only asked you to support them.
 
It isn't about me. I've indicated no personal opinion concerning the moral rectitude of such behavior either one way or another.

You, on the other hand, have not only taken such a stand in an apparent effort to discredit a witness, but then went a step further and sought to support your personal opinion by alleging that a weight of jurisprudence exists to demonstrate that in the eyes of society it is considered to be more than merely a moral deficiency.

It appears that this is not the case. In fact, it seems that the opposite is true, and the legal view of such an ethical dilemma has been increasingly and rather consistently at odds with your personal opinion.

This is your argument, not mine. You are the one who chose to offer the claims of legal backing for your perspective. I only asked you to support them.

Famed Litigator, Son Ordered to Different Federal Prisons
By The Associated Press - New York Lawyer - July 24, 2008


Famed anti-tobacco lawyer Richard "Dickie" Scruggs has been ordered to report to a federal prison in Ashland, Ky., next month to start serving his five-year sentence for attempting to bribe a Mississippi judge. Documents filed Wednesday in federal court in Oxford, Miss., also showed Scruggs' son, Zach, will go to a federal prison in Pensacola, Fla., to serve his 14-month sentence for failing to report the crime. Sidney Backstrom, also convicted of attempted bribery and sentenced to 28 months, previously was ordered to report to the prison in Forrest City, Ark. Dickie Scruggs and Backstrom are each to report to prison by Aug. 4. Zach Scruggs was told to report by Aug. 15. In documents filed with the court Tuesday, Zach Scruggs asked that he and his father both be sent to the prison in Forrest City, Ark. Zach Scruggs said that sending them to the same prison would "ease the travel burden" on his family, especially his "health-embattled mother," Diane, who has Crohn's disease, a gastrointestinal disorder.

Dickie Scruggs was indicted in November along with his son and Backstrom after another attorney wore a wire for the FBI and secretly recorded conversations about the plan to bribe Lafayette County Circuit Judge Henry Lackey. Prosecutors said the elder Scruggs wanted a favorable ruling in a dispute over $26.5 million in legal fees from a mass settlement of Hurricane Katrina insurance cases. Dickie Scruggs and Backstrom pleaded guilty in March to conspiring to bribe Lackey with $50,000. Zach Scruggs pleaded guilty in March to misprision of a felony, meaning he knew a crime was committed but didn't report it...


Hmm. seems misprision is still pretty current law in the US.
 
I definitley rule out there could be a rule that prevents a doctor to communicate to the patione the result of a test, whatever test is that.
Obviously we cannot know what result was Amanda's test yelding technically, because that's known only to her. She wrote something, but obviously she doesn't understand much of medicine and we don't know what that meant exactly and technically.
One thing appears to me very likely: a quite obvious reason why the test was positive was that Amanda had an ongoing infection from Herpes Simplex.

Are you suggesting that Knox's test might actually have been negative for HIV, but that somehow she (since she "obviously doesn't understand much of medicine") completely misinterpreted what she was told, and erroneously concluded that she was HIV-positive??

And I'm impressed by your "quite obvious" reason for the false positive. Do you have any data to support your thesis that there is a high false positive HIV result for carriers of Herpes Simplex (HSV-1 or HSV-2)? I'd love to see those data.....
 
But did you acknowledge the differeence between medical guidelines and medical deontology (ethical code)?

Do you acknowledge that guiedelines are not legal codes, while deontology is?

Do you acknowledge they are written by different authorities?

Who writes these "medical deontology" documents of which you speak?
 
Well they did get up at 6 AM and Amanda was there bright and early at the shop at 7:45...so yes I would say they were aware that she might come back at any time that morning.

But you said this a while back, triggering this discussion:

"She was reported to have been waiting outside the store at 7:45 when the owner opened; I believe they knew they had several hours at least until either roommate returned. It was a holiday weekend and they were aware of that."

Have you now changed your mind then?
 
While I'm flattered that you've adopted my phraseology, I'm curious about exactly what point you are arguing here.

If you are arguing that it's immoral but not illegal to publicise Amanda's HIV test results and her lifetime list of sexual contacts, you may or may not be right but I don't think it helps the prosecution out of the moral hole they are in.

If you are arguing that it's immoral but not illegal to poison the public mind against a defendant by doing so, you may or may not be right about that as well but the same comment about the moral hole still applies.

If you are arguing that it's moral to release her private medical information, however it was obtained, then you are going to need something more that you have offered to convince most people: medical privacy is one of the rights that for good practical reasons as well as good moral reasons most people are very, very reluctant to see systematically infringed.

I dont know about Italy but in the USA if you release someones private medical information to anyone without written approval from the person or a warrant, you are going to jail. If the prosecution releases someones medical information to the public without written approval of the person then they are going to jail, even if they obtained it through warrant.
 
Hmm. seems misprision is still pretty current law in the US.


I bet you think of this as some sort of "Gotcha" moment. Think again. Are you suggesting that there is some sort of analogy between the Scruggs case, and someone hearing a scream in the distance in the night?

Zach Scruggs was demonstrated to have had prior knowledge of a conspiracy to attempt bribery of a Federal magistrate. He was an officer of the court (a lawyer). He was very nearly convicted of the same conspiracy charges his father was. He copped a plea to a lesser charge.

He's trying to have his conviction set aside now.

No one said misprision statutes were non-existent. In fact the Federal statutes which were used against Scruggs have been pointed out in particular. The prior knowledge aspect is a very significant part of this. His obligations as an officer of the court play a part as well, plus the fact that he was up to his neck in the whole affair and everyone knew it.

How about showing the similarities between that case and the statutes which you claim would have put a witness to a scream in the night in jail?
 
I bet you think of this as some sort of "Gotcha" moment. Think again. Are you suggesting that there is some sort of analogy between the Scruggs case, and someone hearing a scream in the distance in the night?

Zach Scruggs was demonstrated to have had prior knowledge of a conspiracy to attempt bribery of a Federal magistrate. He was an officer of the court (a lawyer). He was very nearly convicted of the same conspiracy charges his father was. He copped a plea to a lesser charge.

He's trying to have his conviction set aside now.

No one said misprision statutes were non-existent. In fact the Federal statutes which were used against Scruggs have been pointed out in particular. The prior knowledge aspect is a very significant part of this. His obligations as an officer of the court play a part as well, plus the fact that he was up to his neck in the whole affair and everyone knew it.

How about showing the similarities between that case and the statutes which you claim would have put a witness to a scream in the night in jail?


You claimed that the law on misprision was obsolete and no longer used. This does not seem to be the case given a quick examination of recent cases.

We already quoted the relevant statute earlier. It's my position that Nara, given her absolute certainty that a murder had been committed close by, and given her failure to inform the authorities of what she witnessed even after she knew a murder had occurred, was guilty of moral turpitude and in the US could arguably have been charged with misprision of a felony.

I agree it's a bit of a stretch, but Nara doesn't live in America so we will never know what would have happened.
 
You claimed that the law on misprision was obsolete and no longer used. This does not seem to be the case given a quick examination of recent cases.

We already quoted the relevant statute earlier. It's my position that Nara, given her absolute certainty that a murder had been committed close by, and given her failure to inform the authorities of what she witnessed even after she knew a murder had occurred, was guilty of moral turpitude and in the US could arguably have been charged with misprision of a felony.

I agree it's a bit of a stretch, but Nara doesn't live in America so we will never know what would have happened.

I have to say that this subtopic appears to have very little to do with the Kercher murder verdict.

The question of whether Nara's credibility is reduced by her claimed certainty about hearing a murderous scream combined with her failure to act on it is relevant, although it's pretty much a case or arguing over tea-leaf reading since none of us know her well enough to state with authority how she really would have reacted.

However given that we've established using a variety of methods that the actual time of death is inconsistent with her hearing any screams that Meredith may have made, I think it's pretty much moot. Whatever she heard it wasn't Meredith, and hence whether she's a reliable witness or not doesn't really matter.
 
A propos of nothing.......

Knox and Sollecito were NOT "cokeheads". They were not regular cocaine users, let alone addicts. There is apparently some evidence that Sollecito used cocaine once, but no more than that. There is no evidence that Knox ever used cocaine. No evidence of cocaine use was presented in the trial, and no evidence of cocaine use was found by the police or prosecutors during the investigation.

Anyone who says otherwise is either dissembling to suit an agenda, or is somehow honestly mistaken (although I'll go with the former explanation in this respect...).
 
That is disgusting. I saw the lovely herpes lip along with her "All You Need Is Love" shirt, I didn't know he was the one who had given it to her. Someone made a great point to me the other day, about how many people Amanda knew have described her as "quirky". Interpret that as you wish, but people sensed that she was definitely "different". Although that alone doesn't make you a murderer, considering the rest of what we know, it's not a stretch to imagine what they meant when they said quirky.

I am indeed disgusted. By your (and Fulcanelli's) post.

I suggest you read up on the relationships between prolonged psychological stress/adrenalin release/vitamin B12 depletion and herpes sores (or cold sores).
 
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