Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

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DOC said:
Have over 42 US presidents claimed the teachings of Harry Potter as their religion and has Harry Potter affected the name of the year in which you or your relatives were born (aka B.C. and A.D.). And have thousands of people been martyred (or would choose martydom) for their belief in Harry Potter.
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Would you chose martyrdom for your belief?
 
atecom said:
An awesome thing happened to me the other day, I got drunk and I tripped over on the footpath, being the dimwitted fool that I am, and was very embarrased. Then someone called Jesus and I a drunkard and said we were possessed by the devil.

After that I decided that there should be a 2 drink maximum at the local pub. This was a very difficult law and left me unpopular.

Then I turned coca-cola into mountain Dew (or as the 911 truthers call it, Mountain Jew) and raised some zombies from the dead. It was no big deal though, in fact it was quite tedious and boring, and nobody was interested.

Long story Short, I then became a demi-god (see if I was making this up, id claim to be a full god) and you should all bow to me and do my bidding. This is of course contrary to my previous held belief in no god, but hey im willing to let that belief go.
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I never used to believe in god till I became one.
 
DOC said:
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This just demonstrates what I've said before, some skeptics are terrified to admit to one speck of evidence and I think that hurts the credibility of those skeptics as being unbiased.

I can see skeptics saying, well Doc, yes that is some evidence but it is not enough for me to believe, but to just come out and say that there is no evidence in the 2,150 posts I've presented in this thread is, in my opinion, definite evidence of a closed mind.
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So we agree with you or we have a closed mind?
 
DOC said:
This just demonstrates what I've said before, some skeptics are terrified to admit to one speck of evidence and I think that hurts the credibility of those skeptics as being unbiased.

I can see skeptics saying, well Doc, yes that is some evidence but it is not enough for me to believe, but to just come out and say that there is no evidence in the 2,150 posts I've presented in this thread is, in my opinion, definite evidence of a closed mind.
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I can see one person who is terrified to admit when he makes an error, and who ignores any evidence that proves him wrong. For example, when you replied to my last post, I notice you did not answer the following question, and snipped it when quoting me:
zooterkin said:
Sometimes you just make it up. Do you think you could explain again where in the NT it says that Christians should worship on Sunday?
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You made the claim; evidence was presented that you were wrong, which you did not respond to, more than once. Please either produce some convincing evidence or retract your claim. If you ignore this again, I think we can conclude you are conceding you are wrong.
DOC said:
But the logical analysis of those verses can lead one to believe that they were not made up, which would definitely increase the probability that the NT writers were telling the truth.
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I think you have a faulty understanding of what constitutes 'logic', but that's hardly a new suggestion.
 
DOC said:
(bolding added)

This just demonstrates what I've said before, some skeptics are terrified to admit to one speck of evidence and I think that hurts the credibility of those skeptics as being unbiased.

I can see skeptics saying, well Doc, yes that is some evidence but it is not enough for me to believe, but to just come out and say that there is no evidence in the 2,150 posts I've presented in this thread is, in my opinion, definite evidence of a closed mind.
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This just demonstrates what I've said before, DOC is terrified to define one speck of evidence and I think that hurts his credibility.

I can see Doc saying, well yes that is some evidence if it is for the bible but it is not enough for another belief, but to just come out and admit that will demonstrate 2,150 posts from a closed mind

Prove me wrong and confirm the following. As ever a simple Yes or No will do.

* Do you accept that an author having an unpopular career is evidence that their story is true?
* Do you accept that an author being unknown prior to publication is evidence that their story is true?
* Do you accept that quoting someone in a book is evidence that they are telling the truth?
* Do you accept that including embarrassing details is evidence that the text is true?
* Do you accept that including embarrassing details and difficult sayings is evidence that the text is true?
* Do you accept that, 1000s of years after people started writing, a tale has been passed by oral tradition, is evidence that the story is true?
* Do you accept the fact that a story is included in a re-titled compendium of stories is evidence that the story is true?
* Do you accept that providing writings about danger and difficulty is evidence that the story is true?
* Do you accept that passages that seem unlikely to be made up is evidence that the story is true?
 
DOC, here is something to think about.
"Unless witchcraft is true, nothing in the bible is true"
Do you know who said that?.......None other than John Wesley, founder of Methodism.
 
DOC said:
(bolding added)

This just demonstrates what I've said before, some skeptics are terrified to admit to one speck of evidence and I think that hurts the credibility of those skeptics as being unbiased.

I can see skeptics saying, well Doc, yes that is some evidence but it is not enough for me to believe, but to just come out and say that there is no evidence in the 2,150 posts I've presented in this thread is, in my opinion, definite evidence of a closed mind.
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In other word, we either agree with you, or we are close minded. That is an interresting theory. Let us test it out.

DOC, on all the counter argument presented, you did not admit any were valid. Therefore you are doing the same baised stuff you accuse the skeptic of doing. "to just come out and say there is no basis to the counter argument we presented in about 12000 post , is in *YOUR* opinion proof of YOUR OWN close mindedness.

And that is by YOUR own standard.

Anyway, the truth is, if all that is presented are FLAWED argument, then INDEEED it could evry well be tehre are NO evidence whatsoever. That you refuse again to even consider the possibility, that all those 2150 psot of yours are flawed, show your own close mindedness to anything but your own argument.

I could make a thread with 2000 post on how the earth is flat and the center of the universe. That huge number would not make my argument anymore true.
 
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DOC said:
I can see skeptics saying, well Doc, yes that is some evidence but it is not enough for me to believe, but to just come out and say that there is no evidence in the 2,150 posts I've presented in this thread is, in my opinion, definite evidence of a closed mind.
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People have not just said that you have not presented evidence: they have addressed your alleged evidence, and pointed out why it does not support your contention.

You , on the other hand, have conspicuously failed to address the reasoned criticisms of your "evidence," and have merely repeated the same claims after they have been rebutted, either explicitly by reposting them or implicitly by referring to your [insert number here] posts in this thread.
 
amb said:
DOC, here is something to think about.
"Unless witchcraft is true, nothing in the bible is true"
Do you know who said that?.......None other than John Wesley, founder of Methodism.
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Kind of odd, but I guess that even founders of religious movements have to be right now and then.
 
My first boyscout troop were part of the Methodist church. (There were only two in town, and the other were even more religious.)

There were no mention of witchcraft, but I am pretty sure they believed in god?
We had to say "Our father, thou..." at the start of each meeting.

I guess that particular quote have been DOC'ed over the years. :)
 
joobz said:
...this is NOT logically consistent. There are countless examples of fiction with facts written into it. That doesn't make the fiction any less fictional.
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This is another example of you trying to transplant our culture into biblical Judea.

Can you name just one Jewish book that was considered fiction by the people in Judea during or before the time of Christ?
 
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Rincewind said:
So DOC - I'm wasting my time expecting you to "correct" my "martydom of the apostles" research.

You did promise to get back to me (and after 10 days, more than 10 days ago)

Well?
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And I did get back and respond to your point that there is no evidence the apostles were martyred:

DOC said:
Well the Gospel writer Luke who has been called one the of the world's great historians (regarding things that can be verified by historical and archaeological evidence) wrote that the apostle James was martyred. That is real historical evidence, ask any historian.

Not only that but this great historian Luke reports the apostles were constantly preaching even though they knew it was extremely dangerous. The book of Acts Chapter 5: 17-42 reports the apostles were thrown in jail for preaching weeks after the resurrection and the very next day they were out preaching again. They were flogged because of that and threatened again with jail but they still kept preaching daily

Acts 5: 40 They called the apostles in and had them flogged. Then they ordered them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.

Acts 5: 41 The apostles left the Sanhedrin, rejoicing because they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name. Day after day, in the temple courts and from house to house, they never stopped teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus is the Christ.

So we have historical writings from a known great historian that the apostles were continuing to preach even though they had been put in jail and flogged for it and warned not to do it anymore. Does this sound like an environment where the apostles could be martyred like Stephen (reported by Luke) and the apostle James (reported by Luke) - yes, most definitely. So we have definite historical evidence people at that time were being martyred and we have historical evidence that the apostles were "daily" engaged in activities that could have gotten them at the very least put in jail and flogged; and if fact did get them put in jail and flogged.

Oh, I know, now some skeptic may say but it's in the bible. And I say the NT writers never heard the word "New Testament" or Bible because the Bible didn't exist yet. These men (like the physician Luke) were reporting on the facts and information of the day just like any reporter or historian would. The fact that their writings became part of a book (the Bible) officially formed hundreds of years later does not affect the historicity of those writings (especially regarding Luke).

And then there are the apostles Peter and Paul. We know both of them ended up preaching in Rome of all places.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85633

Does that sound like a dangerous thing to do under the reign of Nero who was impaling Christians and setting them on fire to provide light for his parties?

Given all of the above, it is certainly reasonable to believe that the oral tradition evidence (which was very important in that day of little literacy and no paper) regarding the martyrdom of the apostles was accurate.
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DOC said:
...And here are some more writings from Peter, Paul, and Luke describing the danger and difficulty of preaching in those times. Certainly conditions ripe for being martyred in the Roman Empire.

1 Peter 4: 12-19
1 Peter 5: 8-9
1 Peter 2: 19-21
1 Peter 4: 1-4

Phil 1: 29-30
Thesalonians 3: 7-8
Acts 22: 4-5
Romans 5: 3-4
1 Cor 4: 11-13
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DOC said:
This is another example of you trying to transplant our culture into biblical Judea.

Can you name just one Jewish book that was considered fiction by the people in Judea during or before the time of Christ?
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This is another example of you trying to transplant your non-fiction reading, modern Christian ideology into Biblical Judea.

Some Ancient Jewish Novels:

Greek Esther
Susanna, Bel, and the Serpent
Tobit
Judith
The Marriage and Conversion of Aseneth

http://www.oxfordscholarship.com/oso/public/content/religion/9780195151428/toc.html

As usual, way to demonstrate your complete ignorance of your chosen topic DOC. :homersimp D'oh

GB
 
Mojo said:
People have not just said that you have not presented evidence:
they have addressed your alleged evidence, and pointed out why it does not support your contention.

You , on the other hand, have conspicuously failed to address the reasoned criticisms of your "evidence,"...
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This is an absurd statement and my 2,150 posts are the evidence.

I've might have missed posts, not had enough time to respond, etc... Mojo, you (and only you, since I don't have time to address everyone) are welcome to point out any single post I did not respond and I will respond to it. I fear nothing from any post.

and have merely repeated the same claims after they have been rebutted, either explicitly by reposting them or implicitly by referring to your [insert number here] posts in this thread.
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Whether a point has been rebutted is a matter of opinion. And obviously some points are going to be repeated in an almost 400 page thread.

This is just more attack the messenger with opinionated generalized statements that don't give any new info. Some skeptics just can't let the posts stand for themselves, and waste the time of those people with an open mind who are seriously trying to learn something with their generalized no new info opinions
 
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Gandalfs Beard said:
Yes, but you didn't "correct" Rincewind, and you still provided no evidence.

GB
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So you don't believe when someone like Gospel writer Luke, who has been called a great historian, writes the apostle James has been martyred, or writes Stephen (one of the first deacons of the church) has been martyred, that historical evidence has been presented?
 
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DOC said:
And I did get back and respond to your point that there is no evidence the apostles were martyred:
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No, you came back and quoted from the bible and asked us to believe it.
It doesn't matter that a C19 historian who lost the respect from his peers, rated one of the bible authors. It doesn't matter that the bible was put together after the story was passed from mouth to mouth over the generations. It doesn't matter that there is evidence that other people were punished.

We are asking whether there is any evidence, outside the bible, which verifies the martyrdom of the disciples.

If you haven't got any is is simple to say so than to repeatedly quote for the bible again and again.
 
DOC said:
So you don't believe when someone like Gospel writer Luke, who has been called a great historian, writes the apostle James has been martyred, or writes Stephen (one of the first deacons of the church) has been martyred, that historical evidence has been presented?
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Look at the title of the thread. Luke was a NT author. What Luke writes is not evidence that what Luke writes is true unless there is independent verification.

This really is simple. Why can you not understand it? Do you not know any 10 or 11 year olds who can explain this to you?
 
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