Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Solange305]

Hmm. So we are expected to believe that Nara heard a blood-curdling scream, one that she was certain was the sound of someone being murdered close by - and it doesn't matter that she decided not to call the police, thus allowing the murderer time to complete his work and escape.

I don't see that as being proof she lied. A lot of times we second guess ourselves and are hesitant to call the police without good reason.

In some jurisdictions, I'm not sure about Italy, Nara herself would be prosecuted for failing to report a serious crime.

You actually believe she would have been prosecuted for hearing a scream and not calling the cops? I find that hard to believe.

 

[katy_did]

Well, I know what Fawlty Towers is, even if it did air before I was born. My dad used to play it every Christmas though, plus it was repeated a bunch of times. Maybe that's why.

I guess Solange must've thought Colonel Hall really does have an implausibly short wife, and that LJ was callously making fun of her. That would certainly have been a very unfortunate coincidence.

 

[LondonJohn]

I don't see that as being proof she lied. A lot of times we second guess ourselves and are hesitant to call the police without good reason.

I would argue that she had a pretty good reason to call the police since the scream she says she heard was - as she herself described it - "not a normal scream, but a scream of death", and "it was a noise I will never be able to forget - it haunts me to this day". She also says that "I straight away felt sickened (by the scream)". Hmmmmmm.

 

[Withnail1969]

Well, I for one am convinced by that explanation, and I now believe Quintavalle to be a completely reliable witness

i think the theme today is that the witness testimonies in this trial are a joke, a heap of junk. Nara's spidey-sense hearing, Quintavalle and the guilty-looking people buying bleach at stupid 'o' clock in the morning even though they already had 2 bottles, Curatalo and the imaginary red coat not owned by Amanda, Kokomani and the olive-throwing incident.

Would any of these witnesses be taken seriously in the UK or US?

 

[RoseMontague]

Well, I for one am convinced by that explanation, and I now believe Quintavalle to be a completely reliable witness

(I particularly like the part where Quintavalle didn't recognise a woman's facial features, hair or stature when she was alone, because these facets were only recognisable to him when she was standing next to a particular other man.)

Yes,
It is sometimes true that people with amazing memories sometimes need a trigger to evoke that amazing mind's perfect playback of a particular image.

I am surprised that you completely accept this explanation, however. I thought it possible that some may have considered it a bit of a stretch. The explanation does seem to wrap around Massei's reasoning in excellent fashion.

 

[Solange305]

I just don't see why Amanda's in any way unusual for bringing a few guys back to sleep with, or why it was wrong for her to do so. Surely as students we've all done plenty of this sort of thing?

Rudy and Raffaele weren't technically strange men to Meredith, she had already met both of them.

I don't know either, but it was enough to bother Meredith, that's the point I was trying to make. And me personally, I am no Amanda. I do not or have never slept with men on the first night of meeting them (we know of one for sure, Raffaele, so I don't think it's a stretch to assume she did it with other men). I would never hate a woman for doing so, or think badly of her (although I would think it's not a smart idea, and that maybe she has self esteem issues), but I do look at a person's character as a whole, and there seem to be many negatives in Amanda's character.

 

[Withnail1969]

I don't see that as being proof she lied. A lot of times we second guess ourselves and are hesitant to call the police without good reason.



You actually believe she would have been prosecuted for hearing a scream and not calling the cops? I find that hard to believe.

yes, in some jurisdictions failing to report a serious crime such as murder is an offence.

 

[LondonJohn]

Well, I know what Fawlty Towers is, even if it did air before I was born. My dad used to play it every Christmas though, plus it was repeated a bunch of times. Maybe that's why.

I guess Solange must've thought Colonel Hall really does have an implausibly short wife, and that LJ was callously making fun of her. That would certainly have been a very unfortunate coincidence.

"I didn't see you down there - don't get up"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9-vdMjdZXw

 

[Solange305]

Would any of these witnesses be taken seriously in the UK or US?

Of course not, the US would never take such nonsense in their perfect court system!

What an arrogant thing to say Withnail, seriously...

 

[Solange305]

yes, in some jurisdictions failing to report a serious crime such as murder is an offence.

Oh my god, seriously, enough. HEARING A SCREAM is not proof of a murder in itself. You can not prosecute someone for hearing a scream and not calling the police!

 

[Solange305]

I guess Solange must've thought Colonel Hall really does have an implausibly short wife, and that LJ was callously making fun of her. That would certainly have been a very unfortunate coincidence.

I honestly didn't know what the hell he was talking about, but it didn't sound like a compliment, and it certainly had nothing to do with the subject at hand.

 

[LondonJohn]

I honestly didn't know what the hell he was talking about, but it didn't sound like a compliment, and it certainly had nothing to do with the subject at hand.

If you didn't know what the hell I was talking about, why did you bring it up as part of a personal attack on me then? I'm bemused.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

image versus reality

The point was that the way Dan said it, anyone with a brain would assume he was referring to Amanda. Yet you made a somewhat demeaning comment about me assuming it was Amanda. I pointed out to you that anyone with a half a brain would assume it was Amanda based on the comment and reply, so I don't think it's fair to imply that I am biased in any way. But that is neither here nor there, I am not sure who brought whom home either

Solange305,

I resist the interpretations that my intent was to demean and that anyone with half a brain would assume Dan meant Amanda. My point is that the tabloid press (with help from ILE) turned Amanda into a loose woman, one whose escapades offended the prissy Meredith (see Mignini's closing remarks). In fact all four flatmates were sexually active, drank lightly, and smoked cannabis.

Let me give you one example. Shortly after her incarceration, Amanda was told that she was (or might be) HIV-positive. She made a list of every man with whom she had been intimate in any way her whole life. That information was made public, but it had been translated into Italian and then back translated into English. The double-translation made it sound as if her list referred only to her time in Italy, which was only a couple of months or so. The information about her HIV tests also became public, which never should have happened, IMO.

Did you look up the MySpace quote at PMF? It was Laura who brought the handyman into the house and had an intimate relationship with him.

 

[Withnail1969]

Oh my god, seriously, enough. HEARING A SCREAM is not proof of a murder in itself. You can not prosecute someone for hearing a scream and not calling the police!

hearing a 'scream of death' which you were certain was the sound of a woman being murdered, and not calling the police, thus passively assisting the killer to evade justice? In some US states, she'd be facing jail time.

 

[quadraginta]

hearing a 'scream of death' which you were certain was the sound of a woman being murdered, and not calling the police, thus passively assisting the killer to evade justice? In some US states, she'd be facing jail time.

Which ones?

 

[katy_did]

I honestly didn't know what the hell he was talking about, but it didn't sound like a compliment, and it certainly had nothing to do with the subject at hand.

Don't worry Solange, I didn't actually get the reference either at first, despite knowing the show. I just thought it was funny you thought the forum poster ColonelHall really did have an extremely short wife and that LJ was zeroing in on his weak point.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

media and memory

I am going by what Meredith herself stated. That Amanda brought strange men home. Are we now to assume that she was lying even before the murder, is she also one of the many many many people who hate Amanda so much, they must make her look as horrible as possible at all times? With the upcoming movie "Scott Pilgrim Against The World", I propose we plan the sequel: "Amanda Knox Against The World!"

Solange305,

Meredith felt that Juve was strange, but to the best of my knowledge, that's it. And all we have is Meredith's British friends' recollection of what Meredith said, not Meredith's own words. No one's memory is like a VCR machine, as Kestrel has eloquently documented.

With due respect I think that you are underestimating the power of the press to create a character "Amanda Knox" who is the same height as Amanda Knox, but who is otherwise quite different. Stuart Taylor and KC Johnson refer to the media as a fun-house mirror with respect to the way that a person’s character can be distorted in the opening pages of "Until Proven Innocent," and not without reason.

 

[Withnail1969]

Which ones?

Tennessee, Kentucky, places like that.

Whoever, having knowledge of the actual commission of a felony cognizable by a court of the United States, conceals and does not as soon as possible make known the same to some judge or other person in civil or military authority under the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

 

[katy_did]

"I didn't see you down there - don't get up"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9-vdMjdZXw

Ah, now I remember.

 

[Antony]

(msg #7622)
Any logical person who is reading this understands that, I can't help it if you dont.

I object to that. It's thoroughly arrogant to claim to speak for "any logical person", just as it was to speak for "anyone with half a brain" in your previous response to halides1.

Let me tell you I understand perfectly. Assuming correct use of language, Raffaele can't be referring to anyone other than Meredith in the sentence we're referring to. But it seems that Raffaele doesn't always write very clearly, and it's shallow thinking to insist that the superficial interpretation is the only possible one. I have pointed out the reasons for thinking differently, and I find it rather frustrating that you don't show any willingness to engage with them.

Since you invoke your idea of a "logical person", let me talk a bit about mine. In order to believe that Amanda and Raffaele are guilty, as you do, there are far too many impossible things that you have to accept: about forensics, about human behaviour, and about the course of a police investigation.

In order to believe that they are innocent, all you have to believe is that there has been police incompetence and lies, that the court was not impartial, and that the jury and witnesses were influenced by hysterical media coverage. All of these occurrences are commonplace in cases like these, and there is every reason to think that this is what happened here - in fact they are all clearly demonstrable.