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UN Panel: Gaza flotilla attack = war crime.

Yes. They world has shown it has no will what so ever to step in between Israel and Palestine with any actual plan.

Over and over again. Have you not been paying attention?

In fairness trying to keep the two from killing each other has been tried. Didn't work.

The UN, the world and everyone stands idly by as Africa plays theater to several wars of genocide where rape, AIDS and child soldiers are weapons.

And the UN has done nothing, NOTHING, to put a stop to it.

MONUC/MONUSCO. Certianly the DRC has been more peaceful of late than it normaly is.
 
Actually yes it is. When Jordan and Egypt had control over Gaza and West Bank they could have formed them into states with no problem.

Questionable. Isreal has been historicaly kinda jumpy about territorial changes near it (Shebaa farms for example). There are also issues of british influence in Transjordan at that point.
 
MONUC/MONUSCO. Certianly the DRC has been more peaceful of late than it normaly is.

So long as you ignore the rape campaign that was recently discovered by the media.

Ya, they've done a bang up job.

I'm sure they'll have the Palestine situation in another week or two.
 
Questionable. Isreal has been historicaly kinda jumpy about territorial changes near it (Shebaa farms for example). There are also issues of british influence in Transjordan at that point.

Ah, so because two groups are in dispute, it's Israel's fault? It was part of Syria, not Lebanon.
 
And what's with this notion that the UN could stop two groups at war? When has the UN ever broken up a war? How can that even be expected of them?
 
And what's with this notion that the UN could stop two groups at war? When has the UN ever broken up a war? How can that even be expected of them?

The Green Line (United Nations Buffer Zone in Cyprus) in Cyprus appears to be have been fairly sucessful when it comes to stopping the two sides from killing each other.
 
Both syria and lebanon agree that it is part of lebanon.

And everyone else that it's not. The UN drew a line for Israel to withdraw to. Israel did. Now no one could claim that they were an occupying force. So what does Syria do? They then argue that the farm didn't belong to them despite it being very clearly so on the maps. The irony also being that it's land that Syria originally took from the Jews which was designated as theirs in the Palestine Mandate. Funny too that Syria recognized it as their land when Israel conquered it in the 1967 war. It's funny too that they keep changing their minds on which parts are and aren't theirs or Lebanon's.

Funny how in 1966 Lebanon clearly didn't consider it their land:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Shebaafarms.png

Funny how it was undisputed as being part of Syria UNTIL Israel pulled out of Lebanon and there was no longer an excuse of occupation. Without an excuse to launch attacks on Israel what were they to do?

And yet despite this kind of thing happening over and over, there are still people on this very forum who seem to think that if Israel just withdraws to another point it will stop all the fighting. Despite demonstration after demonstration that no amount of redrawing lines will ever suffice.
 
Has anybody actually read the 56 page report of this UNHRC? You can download it here: http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/15session/A.HRC.15.21_en.pdf

All this has been discussed in the other thread, but yet the accusations of disproportionality, collective punishment, bording in international waters, and conflicting eyewitness testimony resurface, with the same superficial interpretation of international law, coming from, who could've guessed, Richard Falk, the posterboy of objectivity in the UNHRC.

Be sure to read the claims, er, sorry, 'findings' under Preparation and planning on the Mavi Marmara:
ie:
...Video evidence shows a meeting of about fifty to a hundred passengers on the ship on 30 May at which the IHH President and a number of other prominent passengers spoke with some bravado about preventing an Israeli takeover of the ship.
...
There is little evidence of any unified command to coordinate the defence of the ship.
...
Furthermore, the fact that some passengers engaged in last minute efforts to fashion rudimentary weapons shortly prior to the interception confirms the findings of the Mission that no weapons were brought on board the ship.
Just a taste of the logic of the findings.

Under: Landing of soldiers from helicopters onto the Mavi Marmara
No evidence is provided for the same allegation of live fire from the helicopters when stating:
The Mission does not find it plausible that soldiers were holding their weapons and firing as they descended on the rope. However, it has concluded that live ammunition was used from the helicopter onto the top deck prior to the descent of the soldiers.
Eye witness testimony was used for the above, nothing more.

Under Deaths of nine passengers and wounding of at least 50 other passengers, and the subsequent conclusions, albeit conflicting even here, this report concludes, predominantly by eyewitness testimony, that the IDF were justified in using lethal force, even after stating:
In the initial phases of fighting with the Israeli soldiers on the top deck, three Israeli soldiers were disarmed and taken inside the ship. At this point, there may have been a justifiable belief of an immediate threat to life or serious injury of certain soldiers which would have justified the use of firearms against specific passengers.
And then goes on to state, without any evidence beyond that of eyewitness testimony:
167. Nevertheless, throughout the operation to seize control of the Mavi Marmara, including before the live fire restriction was eased, lethal force was employed by the Israeli
soldiers in a widespread and arbitrary manner which caused an unnecessarily large number of persons to be killed or seriously injured. Less extreme means could have been employed
in nearly all instances of the Israeli operation, since there was no imminent threat to soldiers; for example in relation to the operation to move down to the bridge deck and seize
control of the ship and the firing of live ammunition at passengers on the bow deck of the ship. Even in a situation where three individual soldiers have been injured and detained, the objective of freeing these soldiers does not legitimate the use of force outside applicable international standards and soldiers must continue to respect and preserve life and to minimize injury and damage.
So there may have been an 'imminent threat', but not enough to justify the use of live fire because other modes were available to the boarding party. Those soldiers who were stabbed, beaten, and/or had their weapons used against them didn't have justification to use lethal force. And that the lethal force that was used, was 'arbitary', 'widespread', and 'extensive' without any evidence to support this and completely discounting that this was close-quarter combat and collateral damage could have occurred. No inclusion of possible alternatives are investigated, including the weapons that were taken from the boarding party might have caused some of the injuries/deaths.

The report then goes on to make assumptions:
168. In such circumstances the use of less extreme means, such as available less-lethal weaponry, would have been sufficient to achieve the required objective as required by
Principle 4 of the Basic Principles on the Use of Firearms by Law Enforcement Officials. A well-trained force such as the Israeli Defence Force should have been able to successfully contain a relatively small group of passengers armed with sticks and knives and secure control of the ship without the loss of life or serious injury to either passengers or soldiers.
The slew of assumptions and retrospective reasoning in this report are too many to post here. I don't quite understand how one could make some concrete conclusions based on such a lack of solid evidence.
 
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I know what it says. The blockade is not a penalty, it is a necessary, legitemate and legal policy to keep war material away from Hamas.



Funnily enough, the document the Mission is quoting does not state that the blockade must be disproportionate. It must not be excessive, yes, but these words are not synonims, and indeed the San Remo manual uses both these terms in different contexts.
Excessive describes a quantity, amount, or degree that is more than what is justifiable, tolerable, or desirable. Disproportional, on the other hand, merely describes a "greater" amount in this case. Unlike excessive, disproportional could also mean a smaller amount (quantity, etc), but this is not applicable in our case.

While their finding that the blockade is dispoportional may or may not be correct, they haven't even argued that it is excessive, as they should have if they wanted to make the point they're trying to make.

They even go as far as to state, quoting the San Remo manual:
A blockade may not continue to be enforced where it inflicts disproportionate damage on the civilian population.

Which is a lie, as described above.

So again, if you're going to argue the blockade is illegal, at least quote an international law that would make it illegal. Your beloved Mission failed rather miserably, but maybe you can do better! Find me an international law which prohibits interferance with shipping of war material to the enemy. This is, after all, what this particular case was about.

McHrozni

Whatever. Enjoy your straw!



The blockade is to restrict access to war materials. Which can be just about anything in the hands of Hamas. It's not a penalty. It will stop when Hamas stops trying to make war with anything it can get its hands on.

Blah blah.
 
I find it funny how Jihad Jane ignores all points made. It just underscores which side is right in this case :)

bigjelmapro, interesting. It is funny how we're supposed to take the Mission as credible, when it "finds it plausible" live ammunition was used from helicopter based on a witness testimony and never looking for physical evidence. Gunfire on the deck of a passenger vessel will leave unmistakable signs, yet they didn't even look for them.

If there was any doubt into the bias of the comission, this ought to dispell it. It started from a conclusion that Israel was guitly of a war crime and tried very hard to prove it. Somehow.

McHrozni
 
Actually yes it is. When Jordan and Egypt had control over Gaza and West Bank they could have formed them into states with no problem. Did they? Nope. And who denied who rights?

I didn't say who, I said that is what has happened. As it is they did have a revolt in Jordan that was put down. But you just evaded my point. It's not black and white.
 
And everyone else that it's not. The UN drew a line for Israel to withdraw to. Israel did. Now no one could claim that they were an occupying force. So what does Syria do? They then argue that the farm didn't belong to them despite it being very clearly so on the maps. The irony also being that it's land that Syria originally took from the Jews which was designated as theirs in the Palestine Mandate. Funny too that Syria recognized it as their land when Israel conquered it in the 1967 war. It's funny too that they keep changing their minds on which parts are and aren't theirs or Lebanon's.

Funny how in 1966 Lebanon clearly didn't consider it their land:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Shebaafarms.png

Funny how it was undisputed as being part of Syria UNTIL Israel pulled out of Lebanon and there was no longer an excuse of occupation. Without an excuse to launch attacks on Israel what were they to do?

And yet despite this kind of thing happening over and over, there are still people on this very forum who seem to think that if Israel just withdraws to another point it will stop all the fighting. Despite demonstration after demonstration that no amount of redrawing lines will ever suffice.

None of the above addresses my point.
 
The above certainly addresses the claim that "both Syria and Lebanon agree it's part of Lebanon" directly from the first line. You might disagree with it. It might even be wrong. But it's dishonest to claim it doesn't address it.
 
"'UN panel accuses Israel of war crimes for 'unlawful' assault on Gaza flotilla

Israel dismisses report of 'unnecessary and incredibly violent' attack as 'politicised and extremist'
"



A United Nations panel of human rights experts has accused Israel of war crimes through willful killing, unnecessary brutality and torture in its "clearly unlawful" assault on a ship attempting to break the blockade of Gaza in May in which nine Turkish activists died.

The report by three experts appointed by the UN's Human Rights Council (UNHRC) described the seizure of MV Mavi Marmara, a Turkish vessel, by Israeli commandos as illegal under international law.

It condemned the treatment of the passengers and crew as brutal and disproportionate. It also said that the Israeli blockade of the Palestinian enclave is illegal because of the scale of the humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

"There is clear evidence to support prosecutions of the following crimes within the terms of article 147 of the fourth Geneva convention: wilful killing; torture or inhuman treatment; wilfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health," the report said.

"A series of violations of international law, including international humanitarian and human rights law, were committed by the Israeli forces during the interception of the flotilla and during the detention of passengers in Israel prior to deportation."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/23/un-panel-israel-war-crimes

The report (pdf)

In your article 147 quote the acts are listed with 'OR' as the conjunction.

In your comments you use 'AND', implying that the UN concluded that torture took place.

That was very dishonest of you.
 
In your article 147 quote the acts are listed with 'OR' as the conjunction.

In your comments you use 'AND', implying that the UN concluded that torture took place.

That was very dishonest of you.

The comments are not mine. The itallicized part of the OP is all a quote from the Guardian article.

The first paragraph refers to the entire content of the panel's report.

The fourth paragraph is a specific quote from the report.

The report does conclude that torture took place (paras 178 to 182) and also that the passengers were treated inhumanely, by being compelled to urinate on themselves, for example.
 
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[/quote]

No I meant I wasn't aware that this was meant to be a recent discovery/



There's another multinational organization that is chartered to promote peace and human rights and use its member nations to enforce its regulations?

In that area?

Interesting strawman.

Everyone else in the region includes at the last count:

Several neighbouring countries.
Several non neighbouring countries.
An interesting selection of local rebel groups
An interesting selection of companies
Various bodies that have been recognised as the goverment of the DRC
Several intelligence agencies
Leopold II of Belgium

This admittedly doesn't set the bar for the UN very high but for the most part they appear to be achieving it.
 

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