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If there were objective morality - how would you tell?

I was thinking about something a little more raw, more basic. For example, "speed lines" or "stink lines" in comic books. The drop of sweat or a nosebleed in a manga communicates the character in question is in a specific emotional state (Scott McCloud covers this really well in "Understanding Comics"). The visual image of a character standing under a second-story window with some musical device communicates a specific message- we know why he's there and what he's doing. Or a figure with a halo- we know what's being said about that person. Isn't that a "language"?

Yes, that is a very specific idiom, like the hash mark for anger is Nippon TV cartoons. I have to ponder if it is an language, it is idiomatic , selef referential and has external referents. But I would most likely call it something else, preferably fancy sounding. Lingua pictoris or comicese.

Halos I am not sure, but the it is hard to tell a devi from a devil. :)
 
A picture in the context DD brought up is an abstract conceptual representation with a meaning, i.e. a language. In this specific case the pictures were meant to convey "how to make a cherry pie".

My argument is not about verbal language being necessary for knowledge, but a language which can convey an abstract conceptual representation with a meaning. Verbal language may be the ultimate outcome of this process of gaining knowledge, but that is another discussion.

In other words knowledge is not only a percept. It is a combination of percept and concept. The concept is what we humans contribute, specifically due to our ability to develop abstract conceptual representations.

Modern humans are recognized as such in the archaeological records through findings of their ability to form abstract conceptual representations as depicted in markings on rocks for instance.

And lets face it the only chance in hell humans have of slowing down global warming is through the use of language (to disseminate knowledge of the consequences if we don't slow it down) ;)
 
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Knowledge is not really a noun, it is a verb as in "He had knowledge of her" Bible somewhere .:D
 
A picture in the context DD brought up is an abstract conceptual representation with a meaning, i.e. a language. In this specific case the pictures were meant to convey "how to make a cherry pie".
So use mechanical photos, they are not representational.
My argument is not about verbal language being necessary for knowledge, but a language which can convey an abstract conceptual representation with a meaning. Verbal language may be the ultimate outcome of this process of gaining knowledge, but that is another discussion.
Uh huh sure more abstract less hard to define.

Why not start with perception and how it works?

Really, read up on visual perception.
In other words knowledge is not only a percept. It is a combination of percept and concept. The concept is what we humans contribute, specifically due to our ability to develop abstract conceptual representations.

Modern humans are recognized as such in the archaeological records through findings of their ability to form abstract conceptual representations as depicted in markings on rocks for instance.
No they aren't they are recognised by their garcile reatures and tool kits.

ETA :gracile features
And lets face it the only chance in hell humans have of slowing down global warming is through the use of language (to disseminate knowledge of the consequences if we don't slow it down) ;)
 
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I think it is dangerous to speculate on what any animal is thinking or feeling beyond the most basic of ideas.


The trick/treat experiment does not show that the dog has a concept of fairness. It could be as simple as "HEY, they're handing out treats! I'm going to get me some." In other words, the treats are a big distraction, and it could be that the dog just lost focus.

Well, having lived with dogs, I beg to differ, but that's just me.

The thing is, we have to be careful to navigate the straits properly.

On the one hand, we don't want to attribute to animals anything that's in our toolbox but not theirs.

On the other hand, we don't want to be so uppity as to assume that particular abilities we cherish (like love or moral reasoning) aren't also in any other critters' toolboxes.

But since emotions underly reasoning, and since we've seen some rather complex moral economies among apes, I'd be surprised if morality originated with homo sapiens.
 
Suppose there are two people who both believe in objective morality.

Person A says X is wrong.
Person B says X is right.

What method would you use to determine who was right or wrong?

I would ask what truth reference is used by each person. If A and B both use the same truth reference, then the reference can be used to determine whether X is 'right' or 'wrong.' Then, A is 'right' if X is 'wrong', and B is 'right' if X is 'right.' I am assuming here that (X is wrong) is true if the truth reference validates it.

If A and B use different truth references for determining objective morality, then all bets are off.
 
I would ask what truth reference is used by each person. If A and B both use the same truth reference, then the reference can be used to determine whether X is 'right' or 'wrong.' Then, A is 'right' if X is 'wrong', and B is 'right' if X is 'right.' I am assuming here that (X is wrong) is true if the truth reference validates it.

If A and B use different truth references for determining objective morality, then all bets are off.

What exactly do you mean by "truth reference"?
 
Because I've been rereading a lot of fairy tales and folk tales lately, I have come to realize that the more moral person will always be the prettier of the two.

"Truth is beauty, and beauty truth" [Keats]

Faced with poetry and science, which is right?
 
I would ask what truth reference is used by each person. If A and B both use the same truth reference, then the reference can be used to determine whether X is 'right' or 'wrong.' Then, A is 'right' if X is 'wrong', and B is 'right' if X is 'right.' I am assuming here that (X is wrong) is true if the truth reference validates it.

If A and B use different truth references for determining objective morality, then all bets are off.

Welcome timm!
 
Well, having lived with dogs, I beg to differ, but that's just me.

The thing is, we have to be careful to navigate the straits properly.

On the one hand, we don't want to attribute to animals anything that's in our toolbox but not theirs.

On the other hand, we don't want to be so uppity as to assume that particular abilities we cherish (like love or moral reasoning) aren't also in any other critters' toolboxes.

But since emotions underly reasoning, and since we've seen some rather complex moral economies among apes, I'd be surprised if morality originated with homo sapiens.

I am not sure what you are differing about. Based on what you said, it seems like we pretty much agree on this. I made no statements about what morals dogs might or might not have. Only that it is difficult to know that, the experiment proves nothing, and it is dangerous to speculate on the matter.

Regards, Canis
 
Dogs are often more loyal to their (human) family than people.

I would not disagree with your statement, but it does not show that dogs are moral creatures.

The loyalty could be based on a moral code, but it is just as likely(maybe more likely) to be the useful result of instinctual behaviors.

We really have no idea if dogs or other animals have the ability to conceptualize morality.

One possible exception to that is great apes that have been tought to speak with sign language. My impression is that there would still be a lot of potentual for us to project our mentality(and thus morality) onto the apes, however. Interesting stuff.

Regards, Canis
 
I am not sure what you are differing about. Based on what you said, it seems like we pretty much agree on this. I made no statements about what morals dogs might or might not have. Only that it is difficult to know that, the experiment proves nothing, and it is dangerous to speculate on the matter.

Regards, Canis

I'm not so sure:

Friederike Range, a researcher at the University of Vienna in Austria, and her colleagues did a series of experiments with dogs who knew how to respond to the command "give the paw," or shake. The dogs were normally happy to repeatedly give the paw, whether they got a reward or not.

But that changed if they saw that another dog was being rewarded with a piece of food, while they received nothing.

"We found that the dogs hesitated significantly longer when obeying the command to give the paw," the researchers write. The unrewarded dogs eventually stopped cooperating.

Surely seems like a response to the perceived unfairness of the situation to me, rather than a mere distraction over the presence of food: hesitation eventually followed by refusal.

And since the dogs could always see the food under all conditions, the distraction hypothesis is very difficult to entertain:

To test this, the Austrian cognitive scientists placed two dogs side by side in front of a person. Both animals could clearly see a bowl filled with (delicious) sausage and dark bread treats.

And it's interesting that dogs appear to have a less complex perception of fairness than do monkeys:

"The argument was that this is a uniquely human phenomenon," says Frans de Waal, a professor of psychology at Emory University in Atlanta and a researcher at the Yerkes National Primate Research Center.

That changed in 2003 when he and a colleague named Sarah Brosnan did a study on monkeys. Monkeys had to hand a small rock to researchers to get a piece of food in return. Monkeys were happy to do this to get a piece of cucumber. But the monkeys would suddenly act insulted to be offered cucumber if they saw that another monkey was getting a more delicious reward, a grape, for doing the same job.

"The one who got cucumber became very agitated, threw out the food, threw out the rock that we exchanged with them, and at some point just stopped performing," says de Waal.

In that experiment, the monkeys considered the fairness of two different types of payment. But when Range and her colleagues did a similar study with their trained dogs, testing to see if dogs would become upset if they only got dark bread when other dogs received sausage, they found that dogs did not make that kind of subtle distinction. As long as the dogs got some kind of food payment, even if it wasn't the yummiest kind, the animals would play along.

Plus, it's just part of a wider group of studies revealing the same thing:

The new study, published this week in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, is part of a growing body of research showing that many social animals, including dogs, wolves and marmosets, have emotions previously considered unique to humans. While biologists have long thought that mammals experience primary emotions like fear, more recent studies have found strong evidence that a range of animals also feel more nuanced, secondary emotions like a sense of fairness.

"Our results suggest that species other than primates show at least a primitive version of inequity aversion, which may be a precursor of a more sophisticated sensitivity to efforts and payoffs of joint interactions," wrote Friederike Range and her colleagues from University of Vienna.

Given all that, I'm coming down on the "dogs have a sense of fairness" side of the fence.
 
What exactly do you mean by "truth reference"?

By 'truth reference' I mean a mutually acknowledged standard. Examples are: a certain edition of a dictionary, a widely accepted industry reference manual, a set of published laws...anything that can serve as a point of reference. Otherwise, everything is relative, your 'truth' and my 'truth' may be different, and the idea of objective anything (let alone morality) loses meaning. Discussion would devolve into one person's strongly-held belief vs. someone else's strongly-held belief. You see that here on this website.
 

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