Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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piktor, piktor, piktor

Oh, boy! :)

piktor said:
If there is no trace of Guede in Filomena's room, that's ok. He WAS in that room and left no traces.

That one really baffles me. How many and what kind of traces shoud we expect?

Knox/Sollecito left no traces in Meredith's room, so, they WERE NOT there.
Maybe they were, maybe not. What we know for sure that lack of traces doesn't mean they were :)

There are no traces of Guede in the small bathroom and the bloody foot print on the bathmat is too small for his foot size but IT IS his, although measurements describe Sollecito's foot but it IS NOT Sollecito's.
milimeter precision measurements, milimeter precision..

Good night Everyone!
 
Do NOT even try to use that as if it's some sort of equivalent. The Willingham case is near and dear to my heart, so I take that pretty personally. The reason he lied was because he was ashamed that he did not go in and try to save them. Plus, in his eyes, it was not a murder investigation, it was an accident. Which it was. The lying that Amanda and Raffaele did are lies of someone trying to cover up the evidence that points them to the murder.

Here is an article about a study with many more than that one:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/14/us/14confess.html?_r=1&hp
 
It's not much of a struggle when its three against one, I dont see this as proof that they werent involved. And again, there WAS DNA left by Raffaele, according to the experts. Pretending like there isnt wont make it go away.

That is disputed by the defense experts and is also a point of dispute in the appeal. You are also asking that they prove they were not involved. Massei takes the same approach and that is also argued in the appeals.
 
And are you quite sure that the bathmat footprint is too small to have been Guede's? What was the difference in the actual foot size of Guede and Sollecito again? Not the stated shoe sizes, but the actual foot sizes measured in mm?

The size discrepancy between the two defendants' foot size and shape was clearly stated by experts. There is no doubt the foot print belongs to Sollecito. It is compatible with Sollecito, only. Not with Guede, not with Knox.

This evidence was presented, the experts presented their conclusions and a judgement was made. The bathmat foot print was ascribed to Sollecito. If it was a faulty judgement, the defense will prove the verdict wrong on appeal. Simple as that.
 
"If you think an argument is foolish, spell out why."

I guess that we can agree that he didn't prick Meredith. Then you are saying that because he said that he did, he must have been mistaken. He may have confused Meredith with Amanda and so on.

It's just one more example of you expecting everyone to accept the least likely explanation for something. You can get away with it once, but not on every single point.
Reasonable people are not going to buy it.

I see that they are still discussing the staged break-in that was supposed to have been completely discredited.

No, Raffaele might really have meant he pricked Amanda, as Kevin_Lowe has argued here on many occasions. It is not an argument that I happen to accept, but I wanted to cover all ground.
 
No. Some people here have concluded all accusations and against Guede are right and all accusations and evidence against the other two defendants are wrong.

The same investigation that put Guede in jail was used to put the two other defendants in jail.

Somehow if it all points to Guede, there is no problem.

If there is no trace of Guede in Filomena's room, that's ok. He WAS in that room and left no traces.

Knox/Sollecito left no traces in Meredith's room, so, they WERE NOT there.

There are traces of Knox mixed with Meredith's blood in Filomena's room but Knox WAS NOT there.

There are no traces of Guede in the small bathroom and the bloody foot print on the bathmat is too small for his foot size but IT IS his, although measurements describe Sollecito's foot but it IS NOT Sollecito's. And on and on.

The investigators didn't swab Filomena's room like they did Meredith's. I think it was like 6 swabs total? 2 on the window, 2 on the rock, 2 on the floor.
 
The size discrepancy between the two defendants' foot size and shape was clearly stated by experts. There is no doubt the foot print belongs to Sollecito. It is compatible with Sollecito, only. Not with Guede, not with Knox.

This evidence was presented, the experts presented their conclusions and a judgement was made. The bathmat foot print was ascribed to Sollecito. If it was a faulty judgement, the defense will prove the verdict wrong on appeal. Simple as that.

Width of foot difference is between sollecito and guede is 3mm. Width of print on Mat is between the 3mm difference. Thats not exactly clear size discrepancy. However, sollecito's toe outline doesn't match the mat, and guede's does.
 
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He most definitely could have gone onto the window's tiny ledge.

He would have created one big mess of scrapes on the chalky wall with his shoes and knees, though.

Then, the little matter of actually getting into the room and cast off zero evidence from the chalky wall, zero evidence of pebbles, grass, twigs, leaves from the grassy, leafy ground below. Zero scrapes on the narrow window ledge, zero glass shards pushed over the window ledge onto the ground below, zero smudges of any sort in Filomena's room. Zero fibers, zero fingerprints, zero palm prints.

Even though all this scaling exertion was done at night.

It would be refreshing show of good faith if you actually engaged with the photographic evidence we have already shown you or linked to indicating evidence on the chalky wall, evidence from the chalky wall and what may be holes where nails were knocked out of the chalky wall. Asserting that there is zero evidence of these things when you have just been shown the evidence is not indicative of good faith.

Or you could engage with the evidence we have already shown you that there is no reason to find it particularly surprising not to find fibers, DNA or fingerprints from Rudy in that room, although it would of course have been nice if they turned up.

This is the thread where
the prosecution was wrong,
the police was wrong,
the judges were wrong
and
the defense was wrong.
:eye-poppi
What was right:
:boggled: the black guy did it. :boggled:

This is what we call attacking the arguer and not the argument, and it's considered very poor form over here.

Implying that we are all racists is insulting, incorrect and irrelevant.


No. Some people here have concluded all accusations and against Guede are right and all accusations and evidence against the other two defendants are wrong.

What's inherently wrong with that? I think we all agree that the accusations and evidence against Lumumba were wrong, and that the ones against Rudy were right. It's not just a matter of whether the accusations and evidence against Amanda and Raffaele are as false as the ones against Lumumba, or as true as the ones against Rudy.

If there is no trace of Guede in Filomena's room, that's ok. He WAS in that room and left no traces.

Knox/Sollecito left no traces in Meredith's room, so, they WERE NOT there.

We have already whacked this mole several times, but it keeps popping up for some reason.

Searching a room, possibly with gloves, is not the same in terms of the likely evidence left behind as a struggle to the death with a knife or knives and sexual assault. It is perfectly possible for an intruder to search a room without leaving traces. It is highly unlikely for someone to participate in a violent struggle to the death without leaving traces.

There are no traces of Guede in the small bathroom and the bloody foot print on the bathmat is too small for his foot size but IT IS his, although measurements describe Sollecito's foot but it IS NOT Sollecito's. And on and on.

Oh dear, this mole again? I was just hammering it down because Fulcanelli popped it up.

Look at page 348 of the Massei report. Rudy and Raffaele's feet differ in size only by millimetres, and the footprint on the bathmat is if anything more compatible with Rudy's foot than Raffaele's.

At certain other forums they like linking to a pdf which portrays Rudy as having monster feet and Raffaele as having tiny feet. That pdf is definitely incorrect as a cursory search of the Massei report would show anyone capable of reading. This has been explained to the guilter community many times already. The fact that they continue linking to this pdf as evidence of guilt indicates some very deep epistemological problems with the guilter community's processes, to be as charitable as humanly possible.
 
No you wouldn't, LJ. You'd just raise the bar a notch.

They said they looked for glass, and didn't find any. So you say, "Well, that ain't good enough. If they had a report detailing how much they looked and how hard ... then I'd believe them."

If you had that in hand then you'd say,"Well, we can't believe this without a video showing them in the process of doing it."

... and on and on and on.

Speculating about how other posters would respond to evidence that you don't have is completely vacuous. Especially if you use it as an excuse to avoid presenting any actual evidence.
 
The size discrepancy between the two defendants' foot size and shape was clearly stated by experts. There is no doubt the foot print belongs to Sollecito. It is compatible with Sollecito, only. Not with Guede, not with Knox.

This evidence was presented, the experts presented their conclusions and a judgement was made. The bathmat foot print was ascribed to Sollecito. If it was a faulty judgement, the defense will prove the verdict wrong on appeal. Simple as that.

It was clearly stated by the prosecution's experts. The same ones who incorrectly attributed Guede's shoeprint to Sollecito. I believe that the defence didn't do a good enough job refuting this bathmat print interpretation in the first trial. As you say, let's see what happens in the appeal.......
 
The size discrepancy between the two defendants' foot size and shape was clearly stated by experts. There is no doubt the foot print belongs to Sollecito. It is compatible with Sollecito, only. Not with Guede, not with Knox.

This evidence was presented, the experts presented their conclusions and a judgement was made. The bathmat foot print was ascribed to Sollecito. If it was a faulty judgement, the defense will prove the verdict wrong on appeal. Simple as that.

There is a lot of doubt. Raffaele's appeal devotes 19 pages (175-194) to the problems in the prosecution's and judge's interpretation of this evidence. To me, it looks like Rudy's.
 
It's not much of a struggle when its three against one, I dont see this as proof that they werent involved. And again, there WAS DNA left by Raffaele, according to the experts. Pretending like there isnt wont make it go away.

I'm not basing the lack of evidence against Amanda and Raf on the degree of the struggle between Meredith and her attacker/s. I'm basing it on the fact that only one person did leave their traces everywhere and the other two should have left a similar amount of evidence. There are too many holes in the "clean-up" theory for it to make any sense, and seems as if its only reason to exist is to explain why there is no evidence of their presence. The DNA on the bra will be contested in the appeal, as there is much reason to doubt its strength. Until the court makes a final decision on this in a few months I don't think we can take it at face value.
 
Here is the part from the Massei report I was referring to:

Given these two features which make Sollecito's foot morphologically distinctive, Professor Vinci's study basically arrives at the assertion that, while the second toe of Raffaele Sollecito's right foot is entirely absent from the footprints known to be made by him, on the contrary the footprint on the bathmat does contain the imprint of the second toe.
 
Kevin_Lowe said:
I'm guessing English is your second language, in which case fair enough. Normally we'd say "I will never again post elsewhere" to indicate that we have done so in the past but will not do so in the future. "I will never post elsewhere" would more normally be used to state that we have never done so in the past and will not do so in the future.

English for me is a second language, or could be the third.
I don’t know if what you say on this use of “will” of English language is true. I know there is a use of “would” for actions occurring habitually, in some way expected to occur in the past and in the present, but I didn’t know of a possible use of “will” to indicate something which belongs only to the past and not related to the present. I know “will” is a future tense (by my knowledge) and I think in the terms by which in Italian a future tense only relates to what will happen in the future. A past tense can never express a relation with anything that took place in the past. “I will never go to Rome” doesn’t mean “I have never been in Rome”. There is no relation between the two statements.
Maybe what you say of English is true, but by now I believe there are specific reasons to distrust grammar lectures performed by Kevin Lowe, you’ll understand the reason reading below.

My positions on most topics of the Kevin question list are known already, by the readers of PMF with whom I discussed. I’ll probably comment again on these points, but just one thing to be made clear: I do not consider Kevin Lowe as an interlocutor, and I won’t engage in a discussion with him, I think it would be worthless until he lacks what I feel as a minimum standard.

Kevin Lowe, in particular I would consider you as a potential interlocutor only if you dismiss this previous position of yours, concerning the writing by Raffaele Sollecito:


Kevin_Lowe said:
I think that claiming that he was definitely claiming to have touched Meredith's hand with the knife is well beyond what can be supported.

Perhaps I've encountered more university student writing than you have? That sort of mangled writing is all too common amongst people that age, even those who have made it into tertiary education.

In any case, reality is not decided by opinion poll and my opinion is not up for a vote by forum participants. I haven't seen a single decent argument for assuming Raffaele meant Meredith except "that's the last pronoun he used, so if he was writing correctly that's what he had to have meant". Knowing that Raffaele couldn't write correctly if his life depended on it, I favour the interpretation of his ambiguous text that actually makes some sense.



I think a discussion with me is worth only in case are able to conclude, after reading the text, that “Meredith” is the only possible meaning and the text is univocal, with no possibility of a writer’s mistake between the “Amanda” and “Meredith”, independently from the writing skills of the author. You ought to draw the conclusion that there is no possibility the author meant “Amanda” in the aforementioned text. I have compelling arguments to support this but I am not providing them here, you have to be able to see them alone and decide by yourself there is an unequivocal answer.
This is a minimum requirement for me to consider it worth to exchange an opinion with you.

I also thinlk yous hould apologize - to Meredith's memory - for having denied the offence included in Sollecito's writing.

If you are not able to state this certainty that Raffaele didn't make any confusion in the text, that the match to the pronoun in the sentence is unequivocal (as it would be even if it was any other wrong pronoun in the same sentence), and that the text cannot be interpreted as anything different than the lie of Raffaele pricking Meredith's hand as we know, in that case, I think, discussing and putting questions to me would be worthless, also because you wouldn’t understand the answers.

I want to make clear: you show a capability of fair and rational assessment on several general topics, so I don't believe you're dull, but it seems to me this happens only on topics where you don’t invest, ideologically or emotionally or in other way. Anywhere you invested your logic, you seem to start following a kind of faith or a need to satisfy an unconscious ego so that you appear to me totally blinded to the shades and implications of reality, maybe by your very axioms. But so that you start focusing only ona a personal scope of your own, so to perceive - or fail to perceive - aspects of reality and build something crooked to serve a belief. You don't lack a dialectic or rethoric capability, you lack a kind of humilty, which undermines the meaning of discussion.

*

Readers here know my opinion on the case is that of a “guilter”, so not in the stream of most of this forum. I am not fit in most conversations also because, to me, the basic facts of the case appear different, and maybe also the basic conditions for the reasoning, I say this because I notice most my objections would be at the root level about the ground on which reasoning is built. And maybe would follow different method, including also different facts.

Halkides and RoseMontague have addressed topics about which we will be talking.
 
My memory's pretty good but not perfect. I don't remember you actually coming out with your own theories but maybe I just don't remember. I have read the entire topic but it has been a few months and that is a lot of posts by a lot of posters. I asked you because I wanted to know your opinion. If you don't want to tell me just say so.


Don't take this personally, because it isn't meant that way, but there have been and continue to be people who have come to this forum months after this topic was first broached with absolutely no interest in engaging anyone else anywhere else on the board about anything else. They don't have any particular interest in discussing even this topic from a point of view of exchanging ideas, but only to press the conclusions they brought with them ... at all costs.

Between the first thread about Knox and this one I have made around 500 posts. My opinions have been stated quite clearly from the very beginning. People who jump into the thread with a pre-loaded agenda are more than welcome to peruse those posts. If they can't be bothered to then quite frankly I don't understand why I should be bothered to help them.

To be quite honest it is just a little bit insulting to be told, in essence, "Well, I haven't paid any attention to anything you've said so far, and I don't much care about what you said before I got here, so you need to tell me what you really think, now."

I am open to rational discussion on both sides of this subject. The perception that I am finding fault with one side more than the other could be a result of one side saying more. It could also be a result of what they are saying having more fault to find.

I have no "theories", which may help to explain why you don't recall them.
 
Don't take this personally, because it isn't meant that way, but there have been and continue to be people who have come to this forum months after this topic was first broached with absolutely no interest in engaging anyone else anywhere else on the board about anything else. They don't have any particular interest in discussing even this topic from a point of view of exchanging ideas, but only to press the conclusions they brought with them ... at all costs.

Between the first thread about Knox and this one I have made around 500 posts. My opinions have been stated quite clearly from the very beginning. People who jump into the thread with a pre-loaded agenda are more than welcome to peruse those posts. If they can't be bothered to then quite frankly I don't understand why I should be bothered to help them.

To be quite honest it is just a little bit insulting to be told, in essence, "Well, I haven't paid any attention to anything you've said so far, and I don't much care about what you said before I got here, so you need to tell me what you really think, now."

I am open to rational discussion on both sides of this subject. The perception that I am finding fault with one side more than the other could be a result of one side saying more. It could also be a result of what they are saying having more fault to find.

I have no "theories", which may help to explain why you don't recall them.

I have commented on many of your posts and have agreed with some and have even complimented you on occasion. I am sorry if you still feel insulted despite that. I appreciate your confirmation of my recall about not giving us your theories. When you have one you want to share please do so.
 
Speculating about how other posters would respond to evidence that you don't have is completely vacuous. Especially if you use it as an excuse to avoid presenting any actual evidence.


LJ's posts are a matter of record. It isn't speculation, it is extrapolation, based on the "actual evidence" of his posting history.

I don't understand what "actual evidence" of looking under the window for glass you feel should be presented that would change anything here. That was the whole point of that exchange, in case you missed it. If the police said they looked there, and someone chooses to disbelieve them, then anything more will just be met with further disbelief. And yes, we have "evidence" of that sort of behavior here.

How about providing some "actual evidence" that they didn't look.
 
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Kevin Lowe, in particular I would consider you as a potential interlocutor only if you dismiss this previous position of yours, concerning the writing by Raffaele Sollecito:

If you want to make up arbitrary excuses for ignoring relevant facts and arguments brought up by other posters you can do that.
Edited by Locknar: 
Content removed, breach of Rule 12.

It's funny though that every guilter seems to find an excuse to avoid engaging with my Larsen List. The excuses change, but at the end of the day all we hear are excuses.

Here it is again for you.

See http://www.internationalskeptics.co...ghlight="Meredith's+meal+stomach"#post6355294

Edited by Locknar: 
Post edited. Repetitive posting of the same material over...and over...and over...and over again is considered flooding and a breach of Rule 6.
 
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