Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[christianahannah]

Hello London John and thanks for the welcome.

I'm going to have to go back and do some research. I thought that demonstration was approved by the court and that at least Giulia Bongiorno was present, but I may be wrong. That happened some time ago and the older I get, the sooner the train of thought leaves the station. I wonder though, if there are more photos than the one I have seen.

Welcome Maya C.

There is at least one other photo I have seen on the IIP website which is similar to the one posted here (the attorney is either further up on the rung or down one rung, I am not sure). I do not know if there are other photos to go along with these two. Perhaps Bruce Fisher or Charlie Wilkes could clarify the discussion of the photos.

 

[RoseMontague]

Originally Posted by RoseMontague View Post
Same here.

Hendry brings up the possibility of transfer of DNA from the forensics team into play, pointing out numerous other possibilities. The fact that Raffaele had visited there means his DNA is most likely in the flat somewhere and anyone handling an item in one room and then handling the bra clasp may be transferring the DNA.

Hendry seems to be assuming that this team hardly ever changes gloves and just does not address this fully , in my opinion.

"Hardly ever changes gloves" Rose?
Whatever are you talking about?!

There are standards which were proven to have been rigorously adhered to.
There had NEVER been a single sinstance of contamination in this lab.

Stop spouting nonsensical wishful noise and get serious.

Maybe you should read my post and see who made that claim before you get all bent out of shape.

Then you may want to consider less rudeness and more civility in your posts.

 

[Justinian2]

Hmmm, strong stuff. And quite accusatory. Care to name these agitators, who - according to you - cleverly incite other posters into launching unpleasant personal attacks...?

Oh, and welcome, Maya C. In answer to one of your points, I would hope that everyone who believes in the possibility of a wrongful conviction for Knox and Sollecito also has the utmost sympathy and respect for the Kercher family. I have never, ever, understood why some people have sought to make these two positions out to be mutually exclusive; I'd hope that the Kerchers would like to see the correct application of justice in the sad and horrible death of their daughter/sister.

Absolutely true. However, I think there are those from the other of the dueling forums that use MK as an appeal to sympathy; a well known fallacy.

I think that the Knox family has gotten the worst of it so far - unless justice prevails. Being a defendant in a criminal trial is like being in purgatory or hell.

 

[Malkmus]

Absolutely true. However, I think there are those from the other of the dueling forums that use MK as an appeal to sympathy; a well known fallacy.

I think that the Knox family has gotten the worst of it so far - unless justice prevails. Being a defendant in a criminal trial is like being in purgatory or hell.

I think I speak on behalf of everyone when I say that the Kerchers have gotten the worst of it by losing their daughter. However, two wrongs don't make a right, and what has happened to the Knox family is also a living nightmare.

 

[Malkmus]

Maybe you should read my post and see who made that claim before you get all bent out of shape.

Then you may want to consider less rudeness and more civility in your posts.

Maybe Loverofzion is one of the posters Solange was just referring to.

 

[christianahannah]

loverofzion,

Upthread I linked to a series of still video images at injusticeinperugia that shows Dr. Stefanoni using the same pair of gloves on multiple evidence samples (one sees the same crease in the gloves the whole time). IIRC, Charlie has previously said that in watching hours of video, he has never seen someone changing gloves.

I think that the budget for gloves for the forensic police must be very small. I suggest that we start a fundraising drive. I wonder if they take PayPal.

Hello Chris.

I don't think it is Stefanoni in some of the video collecting the evidence. It is Brocci. I had also commented previously on the jumps or breaks in the video film and wondered if gloves could have been changed during those jumps.

In the motivations Stefanoni testifies to the evidence collection process (she testifies about the collection methods for many pages - I will give two examples from her testimony):

Page 203:

With reference to the single-use gloves, Dr. Stefanoni specified that they were changed, in the course of the search, every time an object was touched that was particularly soaked with blood, and when it was obvious that the gloves would be soiled;

Page 204:

She added that one could not see the gloves being changed in the video footage because the purpose of the video was to document the technical activities and not the instrument handling process such as the changing of gloves.

 

[RWVBWL]

Thanks Chris C,
The complete diary, kindly linked by you on PMF, is something I had not read yet!
I will not give credibility to passages where he will make mention of Amanda Knox or Raffaele Sollecito, since I believe he is only using them as part of his alibi due to hearing of them from the media...
Thanks again,
RWVBWL

 

[Chris C]

He most definitely could have gone onto the window's tiny ledge.

He would have created one big mess of scrapes on the chalky wall with his shoes and knees, though.

Then, the little matter of actually getting into the room and cast off zero evidence from the chalky wall, zero evidence of pebbles, grass, twigs, leaves from the grassy, leafy ground below. Zero scrapes on the narrow window ledge, zero glass shards pushed over the window ledge onto the ground below, zero smudges of any sort in Filomena's room. Zero fibers, zero fingerprints, zero palm prints.

Even though all this scaling exertion was done at night.

There actually was evidence of chalky substance on filomena's clothes. Also if he laid something over the edge of the window sill to help avoid the glass like people have suggested. Then the chalky substance would be on that item not the sill. Of course I still believe he just tossed a rock through the window to check and see if someone is home and entered through the front door. Whether or not he entered by front door or window. There is sufficient evidence that the rock was thrown from outside and not inside.

 

[Maya C]

I found this in Frank Sfarzo's post of August 27, 2008:

They put on protective gear and walked in. They walked. But someone else climbed. One of their boys tried to climb the wall of the broken window and apparently reached the windowsill, at 3,90 meters height. Even if for the test to have a real importance he should have tried to open the window, with the broken glasses still there, and then jump in. Also, we don't know if someone was helping him from the ground...

******************************
Oops, I see I should have included more of that. Frank's post of that date began that Giulia was with all of Raffaele's defense team and the police. It looks like they were allowed to enter the premises which makes me agree with Frank-he should have tried to open the window and get in and we don't know how he came to be where he was photographed.

 

[Katody Matrass]

I don't think it is Stefanoni in some of the video collecting the evidence. It is Brocci. I had also commented previously on the jumps or breaks in the video film and wondered if gloves could have been changed during those jumps.

But what about the gloves in the bathroom stills? They don't look like the same one in every picture to you? The fold is very distinctive.

 

[Chris C]

Hello Chris.

I don't think it is Stefanoni in some of the video collecting the evidence. It is Brocci. I had also commented previously on the jumps or breaks in the video film and wondered if gloves could have been changed during those jumps.

In the motivations Stefanoni testifies to the evidence collection process (she testifies about the collection methods for many pages - I will give two examples from her testimony):

Obvious it was soiled. Thats what was said. Whats her version of soiled?

 

[Dan O.]

For the benefit of the new posters here (apparently including Malkmus), I need to point out that it is inappropriate in this forum to post private information about other posters unless it is both public knowledge AND relevant to the discussion. See the membership agreement and FAQ available from "Help" menu in the banner at the top right of this page for more information on the rules.

 

[Chris C]

I found this in Frank Sfarzo's post of August 27, 2008:

They put on protective gear and walked in. They walked. But someone else climbed. One of their boys tried to climb the wall of the broken window and apparently reached the windowsill, at 3,90 meters height. Even if for the test to have a real importance he should have tried to open the window, with the broken glasses still there, and then jump in. Also, we don't know if someone was helping him from the ground...

******************************
Oops, I see I should have included more of that. Frank's post of that date began that Giulia was with all of Raffaele's defense team and the police. It looks like they were allowed to enter the premises which makes me agree with Frank-he should have tried to open the window and get in and we don't know how he came to be where he was photographed.

The bottom picture on this of this page i'm linking.
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/TheBraClasp.html

There is a guy wearing protective clothing standing outside on the balcony. Look through the balcony door. Where is that guys protective clothing? Unless of course the protect suits now come in blue shirts. Or maybe its an optical illusion.

 

[Maya C]

Hi Chris,

I'm not sure we are talking of the same thing, but perhaps we are. Is the photo you are trying to show me from the day Giulia Bongiorno, Raffaele's lawyer, did a demonstration at the cottage, bringing along all of Raffaele's defense team and the police? The day when the lawyer climbed?

I think maybe you quoted my post incorrectly and were actually responding to someone else, but I would like to be certain.

Thank you in advance.

And thank you to Christiana for the welcome.

 

[Malkmus]

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/images/icons/icon4.gif[/qimg] For the benefit of the new posters here (apparently including Malkmus), I need to point out that it is inappropriate in this forum to post private information about other posters unless it is both public knowledge AND relevant to the discussion. See the membership agreement and FAQ available from "Help" menu in the banner at the top right of this page for more information on the rules.

I've edited my post, Dan, so that "personal" info is gone. You might want to do the same to yours so it isn't hanging around. In my attempt to put certain things in perspective for one of our new members I fell into the same trap he/she has fallen into.

 

[RWVBWL]

Hi all,
Yesterday, I read LondonJohn's theory of what might have happened with much interest.
But I wrote that he forgot to mention Rudy Guede grabbing towels to help "save" Meredith Kercher as she lay dying, which I find odd for a murderer to do.
So I wanted to share with you a theory I have been mulling over lately.

It started as I was looking at some photographs that a poster named "thoughtful" had taken for a recent trip to Perugia and posted on PerugiaMurderFile.org.
While on that website, I saw a Google satelllite photo that "Rebel" had posted and labeled.

Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:20 am Post subject: Perugia Places Pinpointed
For anyone who needs a refresher on the street layout of Perugia I have pinpointed the main locations where Thoughtful's photos were taken.

http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=271&sid=7ef589981a2e5a3849e2cd42ab7e486e&start=3000

I saw a road that led by the property that the phones were found on, and so I wondered something:
Did whomever kill Meredith Kercher also grab her cell phones and just throw them onto Elisabetta Lana's property while fleeing the murder scene, in a car? That would be pretty easy to do while fleeing...

As I had recently read this again, I wondered, was it possible that Rudy Guede did see a car parked near Miss Kercher's house when he got there as he mentions here in his German diary?:
"As I arrived in front of the house, I noticed a white car with headlights on, and a Drug-Dealer I often saw on Garibaldi Avenue, but I
didn't make much of this and I went into the yard. I knocked on the door, but no one answered. I went downstairs to the guy's place but no one was there either. So then, I waited in the yard."

Mafioso Luciano Aviello says his brother and a friend were in the process of burglarizing Miss Kercher's house by mistake that night. He says that when she started screaming she was killed then.
Though many JREF regular's know of this, I will post it anyways:
Aviello, of Naples, said: 'At the time I was living in Perugia and my brother was staying with me.
'When he came to my house he had a bloodstained jacket on and was carrying a flick knife. He said he had broken into a house and killed a girl and then he had run away.'

He added: 'My brother told me that he and an Albanian friend of his called Florio were breaking into a house to steal some pictures.
'The house they broke into didn't have any pictures and instead they found the poor English girl who started screaming like mad.
'Antonio stabbed her in the throat then he tried to stifle her screams.
'Meredith defended herself like mad, scratching and hitting out at him.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...er-claims-Mafia-supergrass.html#ixzz10I1zvu1U[/I]

Now, just for a moment, can you consider this actually happening?
On a dark November night, I sure can.

Now what happens if Rudy Guede hears a scream coming from the girls house, walks up, knocks on the door, sees it open, and goes into the house?

RG interrogation of December 7 2007 with Judge Matteini when Rudy Guede

RG. ...I got to the door, there was this male silhouette, a male shape standing, he was inside the room that is, here is the bed, at the end, at the very bottom of the bed he was covering me like this, I said what happens...in fact I placed my hand, my left hand on his right shoulder and at the same time I saw Meredith's body on the floor...
Judge. Describe this person
RG. So, this person I first saw the shoulder and also the head in the sense of what he was wearing on his head, I can describe what he was wearing
Judge. ...How was he, first was he taller or shorter than you?
RG. No he got up to here, here, he wasn't taller. A bit shorter than me
Judge. How was his hair?
RG. He was wearing a white cap with a red stripe around here. I could see the hair because the abat jour was switched on, I saw against the light his hair was brown ...
Judge... Have you seen his face?
RG....No, because he tried to slash me with the knife and I covered my face with my hand...
J. What was he wearing?
RG. He had a black jacket, I could recognized the jacket because I saw the Napapijri logo
J. Was it a jacket with a zipper?
RG. Yes it was a close-fitting jacket
J. But then, you weren't able to see his face?
RG. There was a soft light on the night table...
J. Where was Meredith?
RG. She was laying on the floor next to the night table with the blood that meanwhile had started flowing ...
J. What have you done when you saw this?
RG. I tried to defend myself and while I was backing off I fell, I remember well, between the fridge and the table.
J. So you both exited Meredith 's room?
RG. I was backing off and also crawling
J. While you were backing off was this person always in front of you?
RG. Yes because it was a ferocious thing, he attacked me ferociously
J. Answer to this question: was this person looking straight up to your face?
RG. Yes I believe so, I really believe so.

Read more here:
http://alternatetheories-perugiamur.../11/post-72-update-did-rudy-fall-in-both.html

And so afterwards may I ask,
What would you do?
If the guys who were possibly robbing the place, Aviello and his friend Florio, had grabbed MK's cell phones and split, Rudy couldn't use them to call for help.
You don't have a phone to call for help. What do you do? Would you try and save Meredith, as Rudy says he did or just run away?
I would try and save her, grabbing towels or anything that I could to help to try and staunch the flow of her blood..
Yet as time went onward, 1 can only imagine that if this did actually happen, Rudy Guede would at some point probably start to panic, for he knows that it will look like HE was the killer of Miss Kercher, and so you can imagine that probably he left soon after, possibly coming back inside hours later to see if she was still alive when he saw that no investigation was going on then, and that may have been when he then sexually assaulted her too...

Of course this is just another theory with holes in it too. BUT it is another way to look at things, I suppose.
And while it might not be as good as LondonJohn's theory, it is definately better then Mignini's.

Have a good rest of the day,
RWVBWL

 

[piktor]

There actually was evidence of chalky substance on filomena's clothes.

So the clothes were already on the floor when they were dusted with chalk, probably from the rock.

 

[Chris C]

Hi Chris,

I'm not sure we are talking of the same thing, but perhaps we are. Is the photo you are trying to show me from the day Giulia Bongiorno, Raffaele's lawyer, did a demonstration at the cottage, bringing along all of Raffaele's defense team and the police? The day when the lawyer climbed?

I think maybe you quoted my post incorrectly and were actually responding to someone else, but I would like to be certain.

Thank you in advance.

And thank you to Christiana for the welcome.

I was commenting on this.

They put on protective gear and walked in.

 

[Chris C]

So the clothes were already on the floor when they were dusted with chalk, probably from the rock.

The rock was chalky? Where did they get the rock? They get it from downstairs, upstairs, driveway. I've have always wondered if they found the spot the rock was from.

 

[Dan O.]

I found this in Frank Sfarzo's post of August 27, 2008:

They put on protective gear and walked in. They walked. But someone else climbed. One of their boys tried to climb the wall of the broken window and apparently reached the windowsill, at 3,90 meters height. Even if for the test to have a real importance he should have tried to open the window, with the broken glasses still there, and then jump in. Also, we don't know if someone was helping him from the ground...

******************************
Oops, I see I should have included more of that. Frank's post of that date began that Giulia was with all of Raffaele's defense team and the police. It looks like they were allowed to enter the premises which makes me agree with Frank-he should have tried to open the window and get in and we don't know how he came to be where he was photographed.

Thanks Maya, I was trying to remember where I saw that 3.9m figure. Other documents (including Massei) only say that the window is over 3 meters above the ground. My own measurement from the photos puts the window at 3.09 meters.

There are a couple of problems with trying to complete the climb at that time. The shutter has been forced closed and window sealed so someone would need to have gone inside first to restore the window and shutter to the state that it was in before the break-in and murder. Also, making that climb before the condition of the wall was fully documented would have covered up the existing evidence that the wall had already been climbed.

Does anybody really think it is terribly difficult to enter the window once the sill has been reached?