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single bullet theory is not true says Soily

TraneWreck said:
I have consistently said to ignore all eyewitnesses. *You have no case without confused recollections, they're irrelevant to Oswald as the lone shooter.

I was pointing out that even if we consider the opinion of the witnesses, they make a much stronger argument for finding A bullet at the hospital and a very weak case for identifying A PARTICULAR bullet.



This surprises you? *They couldn't identify with specificity that a bullet shown to them months later was a bullet they saw in the midst of chaos? *Your reliance on eyewitness testimony just means your argument sucks.

And, for the record, both Tomilinson and Wright said that it looked like the bullet they saw. *That's the best you're going to get:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/399doc.jpg



So people who can't positively ID the bullet or say it was different can be trusted, but anyone who says they recognize the bullet is lying. *Gotcha.

I think you're confused about who Bardwell Odum was in the chain of custody. *

Here's the chain of custody working backwards:


http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/cece399.txt

Notice that there's no Bardwell Odum on that list. *Here was Odum's role:



What evidence is there that this is a lie? *A smipped interview with a confused Odom in 2002, when he was 83? *
http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/da....aspx?n=bardwell-odum&pid=143129833&fhid=5721



They found a hole in his leg consistent with a bullet wound. *The fragments weren't too big, that's a paranoid fabrication.

Of course they didn't find the bullet IN his thigh, it fell out.



Nope.



What?

Instead of JAQing it, why don't you explain what you think happened.

Here are the things you need to explain:


http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/sbt.htm

Once again, ALL physical evidence points to the single bullet theory and Oswald as the shooter. *All you have is mangled recollections of people in the midst of chaos. *Additionally, your fantasy about the chain of custody of CE399 makes no sense to any potential conspiracy.
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You can dismiss Odum's testimony all you like, but it's corroborated. Not only by the suppressed FBI memos but, if you'd read Aguilar's original article, there is no FBI report for it, and no gap in the consequently numbered documents where it may have got lost. So thats at least 2 points of corroboration, the FBI memos which contradict the fabricated FBI 'Odum' memo and the fact there is no FBI report or document detailing the clearly fictitious interviews. On top of all that, Odum was friends with Wright, and this was the biggest case of his life. You'd imagine he'd remember possessing and showing his friend the most famous bullet in history.

And no, all the evidence, physical evidence does not point to the sbt. It only points where you want it to because you have the destination in mind to begin with.

1 You have no bullet. The chain of evidence is junk, since no one who handled the bullet before it was in the FBI labs initials appear on it.
2 Clear signs there were 2 intact bullets found
3 The NAA you cling to to show the bullet fragments were related to CE399 has been comprehensively debunked, meaning you have no link between the fragments found in Connolly and the Oswald rifle.
4 The fragments found in Connolly, including the ones still in him when he died, and the enormous fragment shown in the Jesse Curry evidence photograph are far too large to have come from CE which was missing no more than a few grains, some of them taken for analysis purposes.
5 Bungled autopsy means no link between Kennedy back and throat wound found, FBI autopsy reports say back wound shallow
6 Trajectory doesn't line up unless you lie about the position of the wounds and the men in the car, something Dale Myers has turned into an artform in his cartoons.
7 No evidence placing Oswald on the 6th floor at time of the shooting. Witnesses in the moments before and after the assassination place Oswald on the first or second floors and indeed if Oswald was on the 6th floor he'd have to have set up his snipers nest and assemble his rifle in full view of Bonnie Ray Williams and make his escape in full view of Jack Doughtery. neither of which happened.
8 Oswald had an encounter with motorcycle cop Marian Baker in the 2nd floor Lunchroom less than 90 seconds after the shooting. The WC reconstruction put it at 75 seconds. However, Lillian Mooneyham in a nearby building observed a man in the 6th floor window a few minutes after the gunshots. There is other evidence to back this up. The hsca photographic experts examined 2 photographs, one taken immediately after the last shot, and one taken a few minutes later. They concluded the boxes in the snipers nest had been moved by someone during this time. * * **
9 The ARRB released many previously classified FBI files in the 90s, amongst them an evidence envelope for a 7.65 rifle shell found in Dealey plaza sometime between the 22nd and the 2nd.
10 The argument for the sbt is circular. Without it, Oswald cannot be the LN, yet that Oswald was the LN is cited as evidence for the sbt theory. A logical fallacy.
 
Soily said:
You can dismiss Odum's testimony all you like, but it's corroborated. Not only by the suppressed FBI memos but, if you'd read Aguilar's original article, there is no FBI report for it, and no gap in the consequently numbered documents where it may have got lost. So thats at least 2 points of corroboration, the FBI memos which contradict the fabricated FBI 'Odum' memo and the fact there is no FBI report or document detailing the clearly fictitious interviews. On top of all that, Odum was friends with Wright, and this was the biggest case of his life. You'd imagine he'd remember possessing and showing his friend the most famous bullet in history.....
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What a well-referenced, perfectly reasoned response.

You're literally wrong about everything, and that's before sharing your doubtless comically insane theory of what did happen.

Notice that everything in your list relies on people remembering exact details. They ran into each 90seconds after the shooting? The President just got killed and you expect people to have flawless recollections down to the second?

The wounds line up just like one would imagine if a single bullet caused the damage. What happened to the bullet that entered the base of Kennedy's neck and exited his throat?

There is no circularity. All available physical evidence indicates that the bullets that hit Kennedy came from above and behind. What do we find above and behind? A rifle with Oswald's palm print on it in the building he works in with three spent shells.

If you think this is a "circular" case, you have deeper issues than just an affinity for paranoid conspiracy theories.

Not only have you miserably failed to poke any holes in the Warren Commission description of events (relying solely on the manipulation of eyewitness testimony), you're even further from developing evidence for ANYTHING BUT Oswald as the lone shooter.
 
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How right you are. One only has to go to the places where the moonbats hang out trying to convince us that men never walked on the moon to know that. :) What I find most common is that they reach a conclusion, then later on judge the evidence by how well it supports their conclusion; although both sides can suffer from that.

Ranb
 
RoboTimbo said:
You have failed to answer these questoins, Soily. When will you be able to answer them?
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None of the 3 amigos mention anything about the sounds of shells or bolts in their first statement, these embellishments are only added by Norman later. Indeed, as the lambert article shows, the original first statements of these men are credible because they are self corrobarating and also by other witnesses and the photo evidence.

Shelley, piper and Givens all see Oswald on the first or second floors at around 12. Bonnie Ray Williams was eating his lunch on the 6th floor from around 12. Arnold Rowland says be saw an elderly Negro on the 6th floor at around 12:20-12:25. Oswald tells his interrogators he was in the lunchroom at 12:15 and another employee was there who he thought was called Junior. Junior Jarman was in the 2nd floor lunchroom at 12:15, so either oswald was aswell or he is psychic. We know that Norman and Jarman go up to the 5th floor when they hear about the imminent arrival of the motorcade somewhere between 12:22 and 12:26. On their arrival on the 5th floor, Bonnie Williams on the 6th hears them and goes down to join them. This version of events is self corroborated by all 3 men. If Oswald is on the 6th floor, he'd have to be setting up the shooting right in front of williams. At the time of the shooting, Jack doughty is 'getting stock' near the 5 floor elevator and stairs. He hears what he thinks is a backfire, but despite Oswald having to run right past him to make his escape he does not see him. 75-90 seconds after the shots, Marian Baker sees Oswald in the 2nd floor lunch room looking calm. During this time, someone is apparently moving the boxes in the snipers nest window, and Mooneyham sees a man on the 6th floor. So despite the obvious shortcomings of witness testimony, many of these points have convincing corroboration.
 
Interesting, you freely accept witness testimony as gospel only when it satisfies your quest for a conspiracy theory. Every other time, they are lying or mistaken, especially when their testimony agrees with physical evidence. How do you reconcile that?
 
Soily said:
None of the 3 amigos mention anything about the sounds of shells or bolts in their first statement, these embellishments are only added by Norman later. Indeed, as the lambert article shows, the original first statements of these men are credible because they are self corrobarating and also by other witnesses and the photo evidence.

Shelley, piper and Givens all see Oswald on the first or second floors at around 12.
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Irrelevant testimony. This was 30 minutes before the motorcade. At the time of the assassination, Oswald was out of sight. Some thought he was on the second or first floor but there is no evidence of that, and we have good reasons to think that he was on the 6th floor. I've already gone over this.

Soily said:
Bonnie Ray Williams was eating his lunch on the 6th floor from around 12. Arnold Rowland says be saw an elderly Negro on the 6th floor at around 12:20-12:25. "
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At approximately 12:10 PM today, my wife Barbara and I arrived in downtown Dallas and took position to see the President's motorcade. We took position at the west entrance of the Sheriff's Office on Houston Street. We stood there for a time talking about the security measures that were being made for the president's visit in view of the recent trouble when Mr. Adelai [sic] Stevenson had been a recent visitor to Dallas. It must have been 5 or 10 minutes later when we were just looking at the surroudding [sic] buildings when I looked up at the Texas Book [cross-out -- Suppository?] building and noticed that the second floor from the top had two adjoining windows which were open, and upon looking I saw what I thought was a man standing back about 15 feet from the windows and was holding in his arms what appeared to be a hi [sic] powered rifle because it looked like it had a scope on it. He appeared to be holding this at a parade rest sort of position. I mentioned this to my wife and merely made the remark that it must be the secret service [sic] men. This man appeared to be a white man and appeared to have a light colored shirt on, open at the neck. He appeared to be of slender build and appeared to have dark hair.
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Rowland's testimony does not help you out at all. Although he says he saw a black man with a rifle, he could have easily mixed up details about one of the 3 black men on the 5th floor with Oswald on the 6th. If you think Rowland really saw a black man with a rifle on the 6th floor, who do you think it was and where is the evidence/supporting argument to back it up? Wouldn't someone in the depository notice an unfamiliar face walking around? There were no reports that day of anyone unfamiliar from any of the workers.


Soily said:
Oswald tells his interrogators he was in the lunchroom at 12:15 and another employee was there who he thought was called Junior. Junior Jarman was in the 2nd floor lunchroom at 12:15, so either oswald was aswell or he is psychic. We know that Norman and Jarman go up to the 5th floor when they hear about the imminent arrival of the motorcade somewhere between 12:22 and 12:26. On their arrival on the 5th floor, Bonnie Williams on the 6th hears them and goes down to join them. This version of events is self corroborated by all 3 men. If Oswald is on the 6th floor, he'd have to be setting up the shooting right in front of williams. At the time of the shooting, Jack doughty is 'getting stock' near the 5 floor elevator and stairs. He hears what he thinks is a backfire, but despite Oswald having to run right past him to make his escape he does not see him. 75-90 seconds after the shots, Marian Baker sees Oswald in the 2nd floor lunch room looking calm. During this time, someone is apparently moving the boxes in the snipers nest window, and Mooneyham sees a man on the 6th floor. So despite the obvious shortcomings of witness testimony, many of these points have convincing corroboration.
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The sniper's nest was hidden with stacks of boxes. Oswald could have set everything up and hidden his assembled rifle in the boxes before the assassination. It doesn't take much time to assemble a Mannlicher Carcano (about 2-3 minutes). We can't presuppose that Oswald assembled the boxes and sniper's nest within the ten minute time frame you have selected. He could have set it up much earlier. As for Mooneyham's testimony:

"Mrs. MOONEYHAM and Mrs. CLARK left Judge KING's courtroom and went to the office of Judge JULIEN C. MYER to observe the happenings from Judge MYER's window. . . . Mrs. MOONEYHAM estimated that it was about 4½ to 5 minutes following the shots fired by the assassin, that she looked up towards the sixth floor of the TSBD and observed the figure of a man standing in the sixth floor window behind some cardboard boxes. This man appeared to Mrs. MOONEYHAM to be looking out of the window, however, the man was not close up to the window but was standing slightly back from it, so that Mrs. MOONEYHAM could not make out his features...." (Jim Marrs, Crossfire, p. 53; Commission Exhibit 2098)
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Since Oswald was now gone from the Depository, and it was more than a half-hour before the Sniper's Nest was discovered by Dallas law enforcement, the obvious inference is that Mooneyham saw a conspirator in the Sniper's Nest.

But just what would a conspiracy shooter do after killing Kennedy? Would he decide "it's Miller time!" and open a cold beer, lounging in the Sniper's Nest savoring his feat? Or would he hightail it out of the Depository before it was sealed off? Would he hang around waiting to confront armed cops, or would he disappear as quickly as possible?

Since it's vastly implausible that any conspiracy shooter would have been in the Sniper's Nest in the time frame that Mooneyham mentions, and since it's known that Oswald was not there and Dallas law enforcement was not there, the most plausible conclusion is that she was simply confused about the time. "
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riptowtan said:
Irrelevant testimony. This was 30 minutes before the motorcade. At the time of the assassination, Oswald was out of sight. Some thought he was on the second or first floor but there is no evidence of that, and we have good reasons to think that he was on the 6th floor. I've already gone over this.





Rowland's testimony does not help you out at all. Although he says he saw a black man with a rifle, he could have easily mixed up details about one of the 3 black men on the 5th floor with Oswald on the 6th. If you think Rowland really saw a black man with a rifle on the 6th floor, who do you think it was and where is the evidence/supporting argument to back it up? Wouldn't someone in the depository notice an unfamiliar face walking around? There were no reports that day of anyone unfamiliar from any of the workers.




The sniper's nest was hidden with stacks of boxes. Oswald could have set everything up and hidden his assembled rifle in the boxes before the assassination. It doesn't take much time to assemble a Mannlicher Carcano (about 2-3 minutes). We can't presuppose that Oswald assembled the boxes and sniper's nest within the ten minute time frame you have selected. He could have set it up much earlier. As for Mooneyham's testimony:
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So either oswald built his snipers nest and assembled his rifle right in front of Bonnie Ray Williams and he never saw him, which is laughable, or somehow Oswald built the snipers nest earlier that morning.

Problem. Work was slack that month, and several of the men, including Bonnie Ray Williams spent the morning of the 22nd laying a new plywood floor on the 6th floor. So when did Ozzie build the snipers nest, retrieve his rifle from wherever he'd hidden it and assemble it? All unseen despite a bunch of men laying a new floor?
 
Soily said:
So either oswald built his snipers nest and assembled his rifle right in front of Bonnie Ray Williams and he never saw him, which is laughable, or somehow Oswald built the snipers nest earlier that morning.
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See, I told you it wasn't difficult.
 
Soily said:
So either oswald built his snipers nest and assembled his rifle right in front of Bonnie Ray Williams and he never saw him, which is laughable, or somehow Oswald built the snipers nest earlier that morning.

Problem. Work was slack that month, and several of the men, including Bonnie Ray Williams spent the morning of the 22nd laying a new plywood floor on the 6th floor. So when did Ozzie build the snipers nest, retrieve his rifle from wherever he'd hidden it and assemble it? All unseen despite a bunch of men laying a new floor?
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There are many more options. We know that the sniper's nest was built before the shooting, so someone had to have built it before that time. I love how you take William's 12:20 time, when he was clearly not sure of how long he was up there. He originally said 3 minutes, then 5-15. Oswald could have been behind the boxes at 12:10 giving him plenty of time. Since we don't know the exact time William left, all you can say is that Oswald was out of sight and that someone had built a sniper's nest, shot 3 rounds from Oswald's gun, and that Oswald left for no apparent reason. If someone were to assassinate the president, they would have kept themselves hidden during the minutes before the assassination. There were many rows of boxes on the sixth floor, making it easy for him to stay out of view.

I'm curious to hear what you think happened Soily. Did some stranger walk into the Paine's garage, steal Oswald's gun, the go up to the 6th floor unnoticed with the rifle, set up the sniper's nest, and then leave without anyone seeing him? If so, it looks like you have the "invisible gunman" theory on your hands.
 
Soily said:
All unseen despite a bunch of men laying a new floor?
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They quit around 11:45 and were working on the west side of the 6th floor. Oswald's sniper nest was on the east side. It doesn't take long to build a sniper's nest and to assemble a rifle.
 
You know, I've read through all this and I'm even more convinced that Oswald did it all by himself. The only question I have is this:

If it is true that Oswald was a patsy, so freaking what? How long has it been? Do you think the mysterious shooter(s) and co-conspirators are still alive? Do you think, if they are still alive, that there is any way any of the JFK conspiracy believers could convince a jury of anything? Not the way they present themselves, unless they think acting like closed-minded buffoons is how you sway people.

Sorry, Oswald did it, but even if, by some twist, he didn't, they got away with it, and there's nothing you can do to change it.
Deal with it.
You lose, either way.
 
riptowtan said:
They quit around 11:45 and were working on the west side of the 6th floor. Oswald's sniper nest was on the east side. It doesn't take long to build a sniper's nest and to assemble a rifle.
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The 6th floor is one big room the idea that Oswald could do this when the floor is full of workmen is fanciful. And you speak as if these boxes were empty, they were piled up with books, no easy task to simply toss the boxes into a makeshift nest as if they weighed nothing, especially for a slight man like oswald. 'oh pardon me boys, i'm just going to take this large rifle shaped package behind this snipers nest I constructed in front of you. And yet nobody saw him. But even worse that the unlikeyhood of it, is that Oswald would choose to build his nest on the floor with workman on it. That's almost as inexplicable as his decision to buy traceable weapons by mail. And you know you're going to have a hard time dismissing Bonnie Ray Williams, since his story is corroborated by both other witneses and the time of a known event.
 
RoboTimbo said:
The application for PO Box 2915 in Dallas had been discarded so it isn't known what names he had put on it. The PO Box in New Orleans, he had listed himself, Marina and one of his aliases, "AJ Hidell". AJ Hidell is the name he used to purchase the assassination rifle and the revolver he used to kill Tippit. Those were mailed to PO Box 2915 in Dallas. These things really aren't difficult.
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Factoid.

I've already posted the actual documents that prove this is not true.
2w7fleh.jpg

-84653h-.jpg


Are you blind?

Harry Holmes lied to the WC.

And these aren't the only regulations that were broken. Oswald also didn't fill out the form 2162, which was mandatory for sales of firearms through the post. He also didn't have the magistrates certificate of good character which was mandatory for buying handguns through the post. And this was done by a well known commie agitator in the middle of the cold war, right under the nose of an FBI informant who was leaking peoples postal behavior to the FBI and secret service, and during Senator Dodd's subcommittee investigation into the gun mail-order business and during the CIA's illegal domestic Mail Watch programme which was keeping tabs on virtually anyone who received anything from Fair play for Cuba, American Communist Party, letters from the Soviet Union (and which John Newman in Oswald and the CIA has shown Oswald has been on the watch list before)
 
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